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ROMANCING ALISTAIR: WHAT ENDING TO PICK? YOU CHOOSE...


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#1151
SurelyForth

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Arundor wrote...

I was curious about this so I checked it out in the toolset.  According to what I found there, you can only get the "bastard is still a bastard" line if your character is male.  Females don't get the line.  I'm not sure why the writers would set it up that way, but it's what the toolset seems to indicate.

The conversation plays out like this:


(if PC is male):
PC:   Goldanna, Alistair came here hoping to find his family.
Goldanna:  Well... so he's found it. I'm his sister. But what are you to me, boy, except the one who took my mother away, hmm?
Alistair:  You think I wished her dead? I never wanted that. I didn't have the life you think I did, Goldanna.
Goldanna:  Sigh. I suppose not. A bastard is still a bastard, isn't he? But... brother or no, I've got five mouths to feed and no time to spare until they are.

(if PC is female)
PC:   Goldanna, Alistair came here hoping to find his family.
Goldanna:  Well, he found it. And what good is that to me? None, that's what, unless he can see to it that his family lives as it should!


Hmmm, that would explain it. I just tested it 6 more times with low-medium-high cunning/coercion and with Alistair at neutral and warm and never got it. 

PS. If you were wondering- you can get a 20 point approval hit for brushing him off after you leave Goldanna's. Calling him naive loses you nothing!

Modifié par SurelyForth, 06 mars 2010 - 08:25 .


#1152
errant_knight

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Arundor wrote...

I was curious about this so I checked it out in the toolset.  According to what I found there, you can only get the "bastard is still a bastard" line if your character is male.  Females don't get the line.  I'm not sure why the writers would set it up that way, but it's what the toolset seems to indicate.

The conversation plays out like this:


(if PC is male):
PC:   Goldanna, Alistair came here hoping to find his family.
Goldanna:  Well... so he's found it. I'm his sister. But what are you to me, boy, except the one who took my mother away, hmm?
Alistair:  You think I wished her dead? I never wanted that. I didn't have the life you think I did, Goldanna.
Goldanna:  Sigh. I suppose not. A bastard is still a bastard, isn't he? But... brother or no, I've got five mouths to feed and no time to spare until they are.

(if PC is female)
PC:   Goldanna, Alistair came here hoping to find his family.
Goldanna:  Well, he found it. And what good is that to me? None, that's what, unless he can see to it that his family lives as it should!


Thanks so much for looking this up! I can start putting some points into strength and dexterity again--I'm starting to die a lot. ;)

#1153
SurelyForth

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I'm in a testing mood today, so I decided to futz around with Coercion at the Landsmeet and I was interested to discover that Alistair will still marry the HN even if you have no points in coercion and low cunning (this is at 100 Love, though). The same holds true if you make him king and he tries to break up with you- you can stay his mistress with no persuade checks at all (which I already knew) and without any approval loss.




#1154
Sandtigress

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Thanks for checking on the Goldanna thing - that saves me some frustration for sure! Now I really do need to make Alistair a buddy PC...

#1155
Sandtigress

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Alright, this thread has made me want a male buddy for Alistair, to make up for sticking him with my blood mage. Just rolled a 2H noble dwarf, the last origin I needed. All made of honor, with a few vices just to keep him fun. I think Alistair will like him. And Gorim is so full of win!

#1156
Kryyptehk

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Sandtigress wrote...

Alright, this thread has made me want a male buddy for Alistair, to make up for sticking him with my blood mage. Just rolled a 2H noble dwarf, the last origin I needed. All made of honor, with a few vices just to keep him fun. I think Alistair will like him. And Gorim is so full of win!


I'm currently working on a male buddy for Alistair too. City Elf for me though, since I needed one. Luckily I have a person romancing him at the same time so if I get tired of just being his friend I can switch over lol. It's pretty fun not being in a romance with him though.

#1157
Monica21

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I could just be throwing this out there because I'm a bit sleep-deprived, but I find it really odd that Alistair will break up with the HNF for honor's sake even if he loves her, and yet marry a HNF that he doesn't love if you pass the persuade check. (And really, how hard is this check anyway?)



Would it make far more sense to anyone else to have Alistair only agree to marry if he's at 100 Love?

#1158
Sandtigress

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I don't think so - Alistair is smart enough to recognize a political marriage when one is presented to him - whether with Anora or with the PC. But he's a romantic enough to hope to marry for love, so he doesn't arrange for a political marriage on his own.

#1159
Kryyptehk

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Sandtigress wrote...

I don't think so - Alistair is smart enough to recognize a political marriage when one is presented to him - whether with Anora or with the PC. But he's a romantic enough to hope to marry for love, so he doesn't arrange for a political marriage on his own.


Yeah, this. I think that if you were a HN, he should have suggested it, but maybe he was afraid you'd say no. Heck, I don't know if you got his love speech, he is supposedly sweating like a pig during it, lol. And he says something about not having to propose (and sigh with relief) so if you are in love then he was obviously thinking about it.

But I don't think he is against political marriages, especially with a person he respects.

#1160
Monica21

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Sandtigress wrote...

I don't think so - Alistair is smart enough to recognize a political marriage when one is presented to him - whether with Anora or with the PC. But he's a romantic enough to hope to marry for love, so he doesn't arrange for a political marriage on his own.

I agree, but there is something to Anora's argument that you're a Grey Warden and you've only been back in Ferelden 20 years. Putting two Grey Wardens on Ferelden's throne can be off-putting at best. Not to mention that we're given a limited view of the nobles. I'm sure that some Arl has an eligible daughter somewhere.

The fact is, Alistair doesn't need a HNF to give him legitimacy. It's only in the mind of the player. It doesn't make any difference politically, and you're no more likely to get support either way.

#1161
Kryyptehk

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Monica21 wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...

I don't think so - Alistair is smart enough to recognize a political marriage when one is presented to him - whether with Anora or with the PC. But he's a romantic enough to hope to marry for love, so he doesn't arrange for a political marriage on his own.

I agree, but there is something to Anora's argument that you're a Grey Warden and you've only been back in Ferelden 20 years. Putting two Grey Wardens on Ferelden's throne can be off-putting at best. Not to mention that we're given a limited view of the nobles. I'm sure that some Arl has an eligible daughter somewhere.

The fact is, Alistair doesn't need a HNF to give him legitimacy. It's only in the mind of the player. It doesn't make any difference politically, and you're no more likely to get support either way.


A Teryn's daughter, a Grey Warden who is about to stop the Blight and who has united an entire army under their banner? And not only that, but the fact that the Theirin heir wouldn't even want to be on the throne if not for this person. That is pretty good reason to put her on the throne. Teryns are right under royalty. I'm willing to bet that if Anora and Alistair were dead that the Cousland heir could take over on her own.

#1162
Sandtigress

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Monica21 wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...

I don't think so - Alistair is smart enough to recognize a political marriage when one is presented to him - whether with Anora or with the PC. But he's a romantic enough to hope to marry for love, so he doesn't arrange for a political marriage on his own.

I agree, but there is something to Anora's argument that you're a Grey Warden and you've only been back in Ferelden 20 years. Putting two Grey Wardens on Ferelden's throne can be off-putting at best. Not to mention that we're given a limited view of the nobles. I'm sure that some Arl has an eligible daughter somewhere.

The fact is, Alistair doesn't need a HNF to give him legitimacy. It's only in the mind of the player. It doesn't make any difference politically, and you're no more likely to get support either way.


No, your marriage to Alistair gives his claim a great deal of legitimacy - the Couslands are the second highest-ranking family in Ferelden.  The king or queen of Ferelden is not just a blood position, its also one of election and a position that requires one to gain support of the various nobles whenever a decision needs to be made.

Joining the Theirin and Cousland lines is a powerful political move, even if you are both Grey Wardens.  It certainly will introduce some problems in the future as to where your loyalties lie, but for the mean time, the biggest threat is the Blight, and there are two powerful political combinations to be made that could get the armies moving - Anora and Alistair, or a Cousland and Alistair.

#1163
Kryyptehk

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Sandtigress wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...

I don't think so - Alistair is smart enough to recognize a political marriage when one is presented to him - whether with Anora or with the PC. But he's a romantic enough to hope to marry for love, so he doesn't arrange for a political marriage on his own.

I agree, but there is something to Anora's argument that you're a Grey Warden and you've only been back in Ferelden 20 years. Putting two Grey Wardens on Ferelden's throne can be off-putting at best. Not to mention that we're given a limited view of the nobles. I'm sure that some Arl has an eligible daughter somewhere.

The fact is, Alistair doesn't need a HNF to give him legitimacy. It's only in the mind of the player. It doesn't make any difference politically, and you're no more likely to get support either way.


No, your marriage to Alistair gives his claim a great deal of legitimacy - the Couslands are the second highest-ranking family in Ferelden.  The king or queen of Ferelden is not just a blood position, its also one of election and a position that requires one to gain support of the various nobles whenever a decision needs to be made.

Joining the Theirin and Cousland lines is a powerful political move, even if you are both Grey Wardens.  It certainly will introduce some problems in the future as to where your loyalties lie, but for the mean time, the biggest threat is the Blight, and there are two powerful political combinations to be made that could get the armies moving - Anora and Alistair, or a Cousland and Alistair.


Sandtigeress, did you still my brain? lol

#1164
Sandtigress

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Great minds think alike, yes? :-D Or maybe soggy tired ones, depending on your point of view. I'm very glad its the weekend, let me tell you!

#1165
Monica21

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I'm not questioning how awesome your HNF is, how noble she is, or how kick ass she is for being a GW and gathering armies (all of which other races can do). What I can't reconcile is that no one cares about your nobility at the Landsmeet or before. It's never mentioned. You're just there. Not to mention good luck trying to get Alistair to agree to a marriage after the Landsmeet. If your (non-child bearing) union is so powerful, then you should be able to convince him to marry you after the Landsmeet. That event and that single persuade check should not be the sole determiner of what happens to your relationship with him.

If he's just "meh" about his fellow GW, noble or not, he shouldn't be willing to marry her not only because he knows they won't have children, but also because he simply doesn't love her.

Sandtigress wrote...

Great minds think alike, yes? :-D Or maybe soggy tired ones, depending on your point of view. I'm very glad its the weekend, let me tell you!

Boo. I have class all this weekend. :-(

#1166
errant_knight

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Alistair is the heir in a 400 year line, unbroken except for the occupation. He needs no marriage to bolster his claim. If he marries, it's for other reasons, or additional, but unnecessary support.

#1167
Sandtigress

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It has nothing to do with love - necessarily. It can be a political match, and a strong one, simply because she is a Cousland. When I say "powerful" I mean it in a purely political fashion - her family is the second ranking in Ferelden. Marry the first and second families, and who can stand against you? Alistair knows his history - he knows this. Regardless of his feelings for the PC, he will agree to marry her because that union can rally the entire nation behind them to stop the Blight dead in its tracks. Its the only thing that should matter to a Grey Warden. If he also gets to marry the woman he loves, so much the better.



If he's not in a relationship with the PC, then at least he's marrying a known quantity, rather than picking at random from the other nobles. He admits in a romance that he never expected anyone culd make him feel that way - this is a man who does not believe he will ever find love, though he hopes that he does. Its why he's willing to marry Anora - he'll do what he has to to end the Blight, even if it means marrying someone he despises.

#1168
Sandtigress

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errant_knight wrote...

Alistair is the heir in a 400 year line, unbroken except for the occupation. He needs no marriage to bolster his claim. If he marries, it's for other reasons, or additional, but unnecessary support.


He's the bastard born prince, heir only by accident, and an unacknowledged heir at that.  If you go to the Gnawed Noble in after reaching Denerim for the Landsmeet but before rescuing Anora, you will hear that the nobles do not support his claim to the throne at all.  His claim is pretty weak in their eyes, compared to that of Anora who's already queen, even if only by virtue of marriage.

#1169
Kryyptehk

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Sandtigress wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Alistair is the heir in a 400 year line, unbroken except for the occupation. He needs no marriage to bolster his claim. If he marries, it's for other reasons, or additional, but unnecessary support.


He's the bastard born prince, heir only by accident, and an unacknowledged heir at that.  If you go to the Gnawed Noble in after reaching Denerim for the Landsmeet but before rescuing Anora, you will hear that the nobles do not support his claim to the throne at all.  His claim is pretty weak in their eyes, compared to that of Anora who's already queen, even if only by virtue of marriage.


And also take note that unless you run around and do all the quests for the nobles you aren't supported at the landsmeet. If Alistair decided to take the throne without your guiding hand, which he probably wouldn't, he would have been shut down before he could start.

So why should he be in love with you to realize this? He's not dumb, he realizes that he knows nothing about ruling, whereas your father trusted you to rule Highever while he was gone, when he could have easily chosen your mother.

#1170
Monica21

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Sandtigress wrote...

It has nothing to do with love - necessarily. It can be a political match, and a strong one, simply because she is a Cousland. When I say "powerful" I mean it in a purely political fashion - her family is the second ranking in Ferelden. Marry the first and second families, and who can stand against you? Alistair knows his history - he knows this. Regardless of his feelings for the PC, he will agree to marry her because that union can rally the entire nation behind them to stop the Blight dead in its tracks. Its the only thing that should matter to a Grey Warden. If he also gets to marry the woman he loves, so much the better.

But that's my point. He doesn't need to marry you to get the nation to rally behind anything. Ferelden simply needs to settle on a ruler and either Anora or Alistair will do.

If he's not in a relationship with the PC, then at least he's marrying a known quantity, rather than picking at random from the other nobles. He admits in a romance that he never expected anyone culd make him feel that way - this is a man who does not believe he will ever find love, though he hopes that he does. Its why he's willing to marry Anora - he'll do what he has to to end the Blight, even if it means marrying someone he despises.

I suppose I just see Alistair differently, but this is where I disagree. How does Alistair suddenly become politically savvy at the Landsmeet? How is he able to not only see past the part where he doesn't love you, but also past the part where there's no chance you'll have an heir? The latter is the reason he gives to break up with someone he loves. What would make him cave on a point he feels that strongly about to someone he doesn't love?

#1171
Sandtigress

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Monica21 wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...

It has nothing to do with love - necessarily. It can be a political match, and a strong one, simply because she is a Cousland. When I say "powerful" I mean it in a purely political fashion - her family is the second ranking in Ferelden. Marry the first and second families, and who can stand against you? Alistair knows his history - he knows this. Regardless of his feelings for the PC, he will agree to marry her because that union can rally the entire nation behind them to stop the Blight dead in its tracks. Its the only thing that should matter to a Grey Warden. If he also gets to marry the woman he loves, so much the better.

But that's my point. He doesn't need to marry you to get the nation to rally behind anything. Ferelden simply needs to settle on a ruler and either Anora or Alistair will do.

If he's not in a relationship with the PC, then at least he's marrying a known quantity, rather than picking at random from the other nobles. He admits in a romance that he never expected anyone culd make him feel that way - this is a man who does not believe he will ever find love, though he hopes that he does. Its why he's willing to marry Anora - he'll do what he has to to end the Blight, even if it means marrying someone he despises.

I suppose I just see Alistair differently, but this is where I disagree. How does Alistair suddenly become politically savvy at the Landsmeet? How is he able to not only see past the part where he doesn't love you, but also past the part where there's no chance you'll have an heir? The latter is the reason he gives to break up with someone he loves. What would make him cave on a point he feels that strongly about to someone he doesn't love?


You have to remember that he doesn't know that he doesn't need your political marriage in order to win their support.  As far as you know, either you know nothing about the political situation, or you know that his position is weak because the nobles don't like the idea of a bastard on the throne.  Knowing that Alistair can take throne without you is meta-gaming.  ;-)

Alistair's never been not-politically savvy.  He doesn't have training, but that doesn't mean he's entirely naive either.  He's had a good education, he knows how Ferelden politics work, just like you or I know to some extent how our countries are goverened.  He knows, for instance, that Arl Eamon is popular enough to be put forward as heir.

He doesn't love Anora either - and he'll marry her.  It has nothing to do with love, it has everything to do with politics and getting the support necessary to end the Blight.  He'll do what he has to do.

As far as the heir thing goes - an HNF doesn't necessarily have to know that Wardens can't have children together.  Especially if they're not in a relationship with Alistair, they won't know this point because he only reveals it if certain answers are picked in a romance dialog.  And if you've done RtO, you know there is a potential for Anora to be barren as well, and he'll still marry her.  So he's got the choice between two politically powerful, potentially barren women to rule with to get the bannorn on his side.  It might be that you're a better choice than Anora.

He'll break up with someone over the childless thing only after he's made King.  Before that, there's still some hope that he won't be crowned, and he can go on living like he'd like.  Afterwards, he realizes that since you're not queen and you can't become queen (if you're elven, dwarven, or a mage), he ends it because he knows he's going to have to pursue a marriage with someone else, and its not fair to try to keep you both (unless you convince him otherwise).  If you're already agreed to be in a marriage with him...well, that part of the problem is solved.  He won't be cheating on his wife then.  Alistair is nothing if not made of honor.

#1172
Kryyptehk

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Sandtigress wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...

It has nothing to do with love - necessarily. It can be a political match, and a strong one, simply because she is a Cousland. When I say "powerful" I mean it in a purely political fashion - her family is the second ranking in Ferelden. Marry the first and second families, and who can stand against you? Alistair knows his history - he knows this. Regardless of his feelings for the PC, he will agree to marry her because that union can rally the entire nation behind them to stop the Blight dead in its tracks. Its the only thing that should matter to a Grey Warden. If he also gets to marry the woman he loves, so much the better.

But that's my point. He doesn't need to marry you to get the nation to rally behind anything. Ferelden simply needs to settle on a ruler and either Anora or Alistair will do.

If he's not in a relationship with the PC, then at least he's marrying a known quantity, rather than picking at random from the other nobles. He admits in a romance that he never expected anyone culd make him feel that way - this is a man who does not believe he will ever find love, though he hopes that he does. Its why he's willing to marry Anora - he'll do what he has to to end the Blight, even if it means marrying someone he despises.

I suppose I just see Alistair differently, but this is where I disagree. How does Alistair suddenly become politically savvy at the Landsmeet? How is he able to not only see past the part where he doesn't love you, but also past the part where there's no chance you'll have an heir? The latter is the reason he gives to break up with someone he loves. What would make him cave on a point he feels that strongly about to someone he doesn't love?


You have to remember that he doesn't know that he doesn't need your political marriage in order to win their support.  As far as you know, either you know nothing about the political situation, or you know that his position is weak because the nobles don't like the idea of a bastard on the throne.  Knowing that Alistair can take throne without you is meta-gaming.  ;-)

Alistair's never been not-politically savvy.  He doesn't have training, but that doesn't mean he's entirely naive either.  He's had a good education, he knows how Ferelden politics work, just like you or I know to some extent how our countries are goverened.  He knows, for instance, that Arl Eamon is popular enough to be put forward as heir.

He doesn't love Anora either - and he'll marry her.  It has nothing to do with love, it has everything to do with politics and getting the support necessary to end the Blight.  He'll do what he has to do.

As far as the heir thing goes - an HNF doesn't necessarily have to know that Wardens can't have children together.  Especially if they're not in a relationship with Alistair, they won't know this point because he only reveals it if certain answers are picked in a romance dialog.  And if you've done RtO, you know there is a potential for Anora to be barren as well, and he'll still marry her.  So he's got the choice between two politically powerful, potentially barren women to rule with to get the bannorn on his side.  It might be that you're a better choice than Anora.

He'll break up with someone over the childless thing only after he's made King.  Before that, there's still some hope that he won't be crowned, and he can go on living like he'd like.  Afterwards, he realizes that since you're not queen and you can't become queen (if you're elven, dwarven, or a mage), he ends it because he knows he's going to have to pursue a marriage with someone else, and its not fair to try to keep you both (unless you convince him otherwise).  If you're already agreed to be in a marriage with him...well, that part of the problem is solved.  He won't be cheating on his wife then.  Alistair is nothing if not made of honor.


Totally off-topic (a little bit anyway) but when does he mention that Wardens can't have children, I'd like to see that dialogue. I've never gotten it before.

Errr...and back on topic, what Sandtigeress said:whistle:

#1173
Addai

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Alistair talks about the GW baby problem if you tell him "I'm not sure there is a future for us." I think I got this after my PC had seduced him into the tent, then next time you go to camp he approaches and basically asks you if you want to break it off because of his becoming king.

#1174
Sandtigress

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Kryyptehk wrote...


Totally off-topic (a little bit anyway) but when does he mention that Wardens can't have children, I'd like to see that dialogue. I've never gotten it before.


When you ask him "Where do you see this going?" after either his declaration of love/proposition to his tent post-Goldanna, pick the "Maybe we don't have a future" option. He'll then tell you that yes, maybe you don't have a future since Grey Wardens can't have children, but that maybe the future doesn't need to include children...or marriage...or....anything.  Its kind of a sad option to pick, but you can then tell you him that you don't want to just give up or that you'll keep fighting to stay together.

#1175
Kryyptehk

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Addai67 wrote...

Alistair talks about the GW baby problem if you tell him "I'm not sure there is a future for us." I think I got this after my PC had seduced him into the tent, then next time you go to camp he approaches and basically asks you if you want to break it off because of his becoming king.


Woah, when do you do this? I've never encountered something anywhere near that.

I'm tempted to download the toolset again now to find all this dialogue -sigh-