156 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Xilizhra wrote...

I just really hope we can do the same with Liara and have Shepard feel resentment for her gaving his/her body to Cerberus.

Oh, yes, because it's so much better to stay a corpse while the Reapers destroy the galaxy, amirite?

I agree. Shepard would really have to be an emotional **** to feel resentment about being brought back to life. But I guess some people want to play Shepard as the Heel. Let's see.... what were the choices.... IIRC Shepard's body goes to the Collectors via the Shadow Broker, or Liara sends it to Cerberus. As much as I dislike Cerberus, Liara did the right thing. All my Shepards are grateful.

[wildannie]

Gespenst wrote...

wildannie wrote...

to Shepards overconcerned 'Liara's in there' during LotSB

I'm sorry? I can understand if someone doesn't like Liara (I can't understand why, mind you) but if the person you were meant to be meeting to go on a trip to kill the Shadow Broker had just blown the **** up... would you be nonchalant about it?

wildannie wrote...

and don't get me started on her visit to the Normandy... It would have been nice to be able to have a professional relationship that was not broken with romantic mannerisms.

That scene isn't very romantic if you aren't romancing her... but if it bothers you/doesn't fit with your Shepard that much then maybe you shouldln't invite her into your bedroom for drinks.

To point number one,  to me it seemed out of character and a bit forced.  I don't expect nonchalance just didn't think the tone was right.

To point number two,  Shepard doesn't invite Liara to her bedroom, she invites her to the normandy and to not do so seems excessively unfriendly.  Also, some of the dialog is worth getting but I think for a non romanced Liara the setting and look of Shepard is off.  It would be better if shepard sat on the sofa rather than the bed for example.

[FryPanNN]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I just really hope we can do the same with Liara and have Shepard feel resentment for her gaving his/her body to Cerberus.

Oh, yes, because it's so much better to stay a corpse while the Reapers destroy the galaxy, amirite?

I agree. Shepard would really have to be an emotional **** to feel resentment about being brought back to life. But I guess some people want to play Shepard as the Heel. Let's see.... what were the choices.... IIRC Shepard's body goes to the Collectors via the Shadow Broker, or Liara sends it to Cerberus. As much as I dislike Cerberus, Liara did the right thing. All my Shepards are grateful.

sorry, i don't want to start a war here again, but i must express my opinion and I think a lot of the fans complaining feel the same way. Shepard don't feel resentment for being brought back to life, but certainly feels for being given to cerberus, the same people we fought on ME1 and seen what they have done. You may, of course, disagree with me and support what Cerberus does, but then again, this is all based on opinions, if you don't like it, you should be able to roleplay like that, if you do like, should be able too.

What Liara does is put her loyalty to Shepard above what is the right thing to do(let Shepard stay dead), maybe in the end it all worked out, but she trusted a group of aliens which her commander was fighting for a lot of unethical things before he died and she didn't  had a guarantee that he would be back the same way or at all. The game of course must continue, but i'm talking about being shepard and what feelings he can have. This can be character development for the commander. We only see it for the squadmates.

Shepard wasn't brought back because of altruism, it was to solve a galactic problem nobody else could: the reapers.
And to those who say Shepard should be grateful, you can't help someone by doing what you think is right, but what that person think it is right, then that person should be grateful.

I don't even need to say that if wasn't for Shepard saving Liara ass first on Therum, she certainly would be dead and wouldn't be able to go after his corpse (remember: Liara was asking for HELP when Shepard arrived on the ruins). Being dead is not being tortured or trapped, it just is the end, not suffering, not pain.

Same thing for the Illusive Man, he may have revived Shepard, but only because Shepard stopped Sovereign from unleashing the reapers on the galaxy before, otherwise, he would be dead too (and the whole galaxy).

In the end, everyone on the galaxy still owes Shepard their lives.

Again, this is all opinions, we can't solve this saying what is right or wrong here, but everyone should be pleased on the way they want to roleplay the game. If you like Liara you are able to enjoy the game, if you don't, you should too, but unfortunately you are not. This is what we want to change and I think the devs should take everything into consideration.

Modifié par FryPanNN, 26 novembre 2011 - 07:07 .

[ADLegend21]

Xilizhra wrote...

I just really hope we can do the same with Liara and have Shepard feel resentment for her gaving his/her body to Cerberus.

Oh, yes, because it's so much better to stay a corpse while the Reapers destroy the galaxy, amirite?

Some Shepards would prefer to stay dead, like a colonist/soulsurvivor who had to watch everyone around them die. they can be with their loved ones that way.

[ADLegend21]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I just really hope we can do the same with Liara and have Shepard feel resentment for her gaving his/her body to Cerberus.

Oh, yes, because it's so much better to stay a corpse while the Reapers destroy the galaxy, amirite?

Some Shepards would prefer to stay dead, like a colonist/soulsurvivor who had to watch everyone around them die. they can be with their loved ones that way.

If Shepard wants to be dead, he/she can always put a gun to his/her head and pull the trigger.

Yes Because bioware would SO have that option after creating a game that was so massive it had to come on two disks.

[Someone With Mass]

Cthulhu42 wrote...
If Shepard wants to be dead, he/she can always put a gun to his/her head and pull the trigger.

Or get squashed by a Reaper.

[FryPanNN]

Just to complement my post, Shepard of course won't kill himself before it all ends, because he is a soldier, has a duty, stopping the reapers. But that doesn't mean he must like the people he works or how events unfolds, this should be up to the player: only the views and feelings of Shepard. He will of course, do what must be done in the war.

Modifié par FryPanNN, 26 novembre 2011 - 07:35 .

[mineralica]

Spoiler warning:

As I can see from script, in ME3 there's plenty opportunities to be an ass for Liara. For example, constantly calling her "asari" instead of "Liara". And yes, ME2 squadmates remember what happened to them in ME2.

[VinWizzy]

If you want that then so be it but I don't it to be forced since she's my LI and I can forgive her.

[jlb524]

FryPanNN wrote...
Just to complement my post, Shepard of course won't kill himself before it all ends, because he is a soldier, has a duty, stopping the reapers. But that doesn't mean he must like the people he works or how events unfolds, this should be up to the player: only the views and feelings of Shepard. He will of course, do what must be done in the war.

But he doesn't like Liara for basically doing her duty in stopping the Reapers? She basically did what she thought was necessary to stop them, i.e., bring back the only person who ever bested a Reaper.

[Xilizhra]

sorry, i don't want to start a war here again, but i must express my opinion and I think a lot of the fans complaining feel the same way. Shepard don't feel resentment for being brought back to life, but certainly feels for being given to cerberus, the same people we fought on ME1 and seen what they have done. You may, of course, disagree with me and support what Cerberus does, but then again, this is all based on opinions, if you don't like it, you should be able to roleplay like that, if you do like, should be able too.

I hate Cerberus' actions with a passion, but right now that's irrelevant; Cerberus was the only organization with the resources and inclination to bring Shepard back to life. They can be broken from later, but they had to be used then.

Shepard wasn't brought back because of altruism, it was to solve a galactic problem nobody else could: the reapers.
And to those who say Shepard should be grateful, you can't help someone by doing what you think is right, but what that person think it is right, then that person should be grateful.

So staying dead and being unable to help anyone is "right?"

I don't even need to say that if wasn't for Shepard saving Liara ass first on Therum, she certainly would be dead and wouldn't be able to go after his corpse (remember: Liara was asking for HELP when Shepard arrived on the ruins). Being dead is not being tortured or trapped, it just is the end, not suffering, not pain.

But Shepard's death would lead to suffering for many more people.

Some Shepards would prefer to stay dead, like a colonist/soulsurvivor who had to watch everyone around them die. they can be with their loved ones that way.

Given that death is a complete blank (big surprise), this doesn't seem to be the case.

[FryPanNN]

jlb524 wrote...

FryPanNN wrote...
Just to complement my post, Shepard of course won't kill himself before it all ends, because he is a soldier, has a duty, stopping the reapers. But that doesn't mean he must like the people he works or how events unfolds, this should be up to the player: only the views and feelings of Shepard. He will of course, do what must be done in the war.

But he doesn't like Liara for basically doing her duty in stopping the Reapers? She basically did what she thought was necessary to stop them, i.e., bring back the only person who ever bested a Reaper.

Sure, she may have did it to stop the reapers (one way to think). But never before in history, anyone has been ressurected (Wilson says that in a recording in the beginning of ME2), and yet she trusts a human terrorist organization (as everyone in ME1 says this to Shep and crew) that promises this to her (aliens, that she never even heard of them before ME1), and more, let Shepard who might even be tortured at their hands, have a control ship installed in his brain.

We, as Shepard, can kill a lot of people for the good of the galaxy, not let them be tortured or give people to strangers in order to succeed (only if we want, like Bring Down the Sky and Overlord). But we can choose not do this, and based on this, we should be able to condemn Liara for it.

After everything worked out well and Shepard came back healthy and everything, some people just don't care because nothing of that happened, but it still COULD have happened, and Liara could never been sure 2 years before, when she did that.
That is the frustration, i never question Liara loyalty to Shepard, as it is one of the greatest of the squadmates, but the way she thinks and do things.

Funny thing is that Shepard can say that it is all right, and she says that she was worried he would feel betrayed, when actually there isn't any option to show that he feels that way.

Modifié par FryPanNN, 26 novembre 2011 - 09:18 .

[FryPanNN]

Xilizhra wrote...
So staying dead and being unable to help anyone is "right?"

Yes, we don't bring people back from the dead, we keep moving and try to honor their deeds by continuing their fight.
Nobody should have the option to choose the fate of another person, especially if this fate can be torture or experiments that that said person don't agree.

Death is natural for everyone, and after it happens, there is no suffering.

Xilizhra wrote...
But Shepard's death would lead to suffering for many more people.

Like I said above. Believing promises of strangers who do illegal research and can do what they want with their subjects (like all the crew in ME1 was aware.) and let our loyalty to the same person who fought this people get in the way of the ethical thing to do.
Of course it can lead to the suffering of many more people, that doesn't mean Shepard must be friends with Liara for doing it. ONLY if the players want it. The same way Liara can have flaws for their way of doing things, Shepard should be able to as well, and feel betrayed ,but as an OPTION. Even if it is a flaw, he's still human.

Given that death is a complete blank (big surprise), this doesn't seem to be the case.

Sure, it is a complete blank. I doubt we would have a eternal suffering when we are dead but this are just different opinions, like should be for different Shepards.



Discussing this is not important, you think of one way, I think of another. All we are asking is that people that think like me have a satisfying experience in ME3. We are not asking that you stop liking Liara, or blame her or anything.

It wouldn't hurt to add dialog lines like this, even if means less content.
Another thing, we could be rude to her (and everyone else) in ME1 and nobody cared those lines were there.
If we've been never be able to, I wouldn't bother.

Modifié par FryPanNN, 26 novembre 2011 - 09:09 .

[CptData]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I just really hope we can do the same with Liara and have Shepard feel resentment for her gaving his/her body to Cerberus.

Oh, yes, because it's so much better to stay a corpse while the Reapers destroy the galaxy, amirite?

Some Shepards would prefer to stay dead, like a colonist/soulsurvivor who had to watch everyone around them die. they can be with their loved ones that way.

This.

I don't know if any of my Shepards -hate- Liara for bringing him back from the death. But I'm not sure if all of them are thankful. Not only because he saw at least one good friend dying (Kaidan), but also because it's unnatural to get "a second chance". I think I once wrote a short text of why Shepard has problems with "his" return - he doesn't believe he's the same person like before. Ethical problem - is Shepard still the same since his brain died for sure and got reconstructed?

Currently I'm working on a different theory with Aurora ... Shepard got a greybox long before he died with the Normandy, maybe in his early days as N7 agent. In that case Shepard is still Shepard.

[Someone With Mass]

One squadmate in particular would probably think that the Colonist/Sole Survivor is a big baby and had it easy compared to his/her background. Not to mention that there are other things in life one can live for.

[onelifecrisis]

Xilizhra wrote...

I just really hope we can do the same with Liara and have Shepard feel resentment for her gaving his/her body to Cerberus.

Oh, yes, because it's so much better to stay a corpse while the Reapers destroy the galaxy, amirite?

That's consequentialist (i.e. Renegade) logic.

It's actually rather hypocritical for Paragon Shepard to choose the paragon dialogue option and thank Liara.

[Xilizhra]

Yes, we don't bring people back from the dead, we keep moving and try to honor their deeds by continuing their fight.
Nobody should have the option to choose the fate of another person, especially if this fate can be torture or experiments that that said person don't agree.

In this case, it was a necessity. And I'd definitely advocate bringing people back from the dead if it could be done.

Like I said above. Believing promises of strangers who do illegal research and can do what they want with their subjects (like all the crew in ME1 was aware.) and let our loyalty to the same person who fought this people get in the way of the ethical thing to do.
Of course it can lead to the suffering of many more people, that doesn't mean Shepard must be friends with Liara for doing it. ONLY if the players want it. The same way Liara can have flaws for their way of doing things, Shepard should be able to as well, and feel betrayed ,but as an OPTION. Even if it is a flaw, he's still human.

Perhaps Bioware thought the flaw was too stupid.

That's consequentialist (i.e. Renegade) logic.

It's actually rather hypocritical for Paragon Shepard to choose the paragon dialogue option and thank Liara.

Only if you believe Paragon is inherently deontologist, which I do not.

[onelifecrisis]

Xilizhra wrote...

That's consequentialist (i.e. Renegade) logic.

It's actually rather hypocritical for Paragon Shepard to choose the paragon dialogue option and thank Liara.

Only if you believe Paragon is inherently deontologist, which I do not.

So, you're saying your belief invalidates or overrides all others? Even for those players who RP?

Edit:
Let me rephrase...
It's actually rather hypocritical for an RP deontological Shepard to choose the paragon dialogue option and thank Liara.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 26 novembre 2011 - 10:22 .

[FryPanNN]

Xilizhra wrote...

In this case, it was a necessity. And I'd definitely advocate bringing people back from the dead if it could be done.

That doesn't mean the ones you want revived would approve. But then again, all we have here is opinions on the subject. The point of the thread is make Bioware aware that there are players who want more freedom (the same in ME1, we are not asking for more than what we already had once) with Shepard opinions and feelings. That won't change your views in the game with Liara, you would still be able to be nice to her and best friends.

Perhaps Bioware thought the flaw was too stupid.

Then they shouldn't make Shepard feel resentment on the VS because of what was said on Horizon (Casey confirmed via twitter that we will be able to).
Even the VS then shouldn't accuse Shepard of what happened. But people still defend them because of the flaw aspect, the human aspect, the so called character development.
Then tell me what you think: is more stupid not being able to feel resentment on Liara for something that irrevocably changed Shepard's life or being able to for one conversation of less than 10 minutes on Horizon with one of your former squadmates about having to work with Cerberus?

I don't want to be forced with either, but if I can't for one, I shouldn't be able to another. I want to be able to roleplay Shepard in this aspect with both the VS and Liara.

Modifié par FryPanNN, 26 novembre 2011 - 11:22 .

[onelifecrisis]

SkyeHawk89 wrote...

If you read any of the comics it explains things there as well.

...which has absolutely nothing to do with it because Shepard doesn't know what happens in the comics.

[BatmanPWNS]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I just really hope we can do the same with Liara and have Shepard feel resentment for her gaving his/her body to Cerberus.

Oh, yes, because it's so much better to stay a corpse while the Reapers destroy the galaxy, amirite?

Some Shepards would prefer to stay dead, like a colonist/soulsurvivor who had to watch everyone around them die. they can be with their loved ones that way.

If Shepard wants to be dead, he/she can always put a gun to his/her head and pull the trigger.

Suicide is weak. Getting blowned up in the SR1 is going out with honor.

[FryPanNN]

SkyeHawk89 wrote...

I think that you should of looked up Liara more before making this Thread. I understand people don't like her or being friends with her. Liara risked alot for Shepard more than you know. If you read any of the comics it explains things there as well. I just hope nothing get changed or taken away. Liara fans deserve something special and wonderful, the others they can just deal with it. Beloved Liara is a very strong and important character in the series, stronger than the others. I don't want her dead or end up during or even seeing that a option. I think people should relook up things before posting. That what I think. I don't like haters and people that judge much. I understand the others feeling, this too is only a video game, so don't take it serious, seriously. x.x

I agree with everything the OP said, Liara is taken a lot of spot in the series, and while I don't see as a issue, as everyone will be different in terms of relevance, remember that is not Liara I want changed (I think nobody wanting a change in dialog said that), but I want Shepard to have options too.

The other characters are other characters, they can love, hate or be indifferent to Shepard, but the player is the protagonist of the story and has choice. In the beginning, we could be a jerk to anyone, it shouldn't change, especially because of consequence. I'm a complete ass to Liara in ME1, and I still have to HUG her on Illium.

Tali on the other hand, still loves male Shepard regardless how he treated her in ME1, but at least we can still be rude to her on Freedom Progress, give her father's data on her loyalty mission, and if I'm not happy yet, kill her on the suicide mission. The point is, I can choose how to treat Tali in ME2 as well. Much more than Liara's forced friendship since ME2.
The other squadmates, if somehow are forced friends, I can kill them.

Modifié par FryPanNN, 27 novembre 2011 - 12:25 .

[Pax of Doom]

SkyeHawk89 wrote...
Liara fans deserve something special and wonderful, the others they can just deal with it. Beloved Liara is a very strong and important character in the series, stronger than the others. I don't want her dead or end up during or even seeing that a option.

Liara had her own DLC, dolly, and media.  You know who deserves something special and wonderful?  Jacob.