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[111987]

The developer tweet regarding the Sovereign battle was that Sovereign would have lost, but would have inflicted MUCH higher casualties. Since much isn't the best descriptor, it could be anything from twice the number of casualties to 10x.

Regardless, Reaper shields must be in the low megaton range; anything higher than 10 megatons and Sovereign would have had no trouble at all bringing down the entire Citadel fleet.

[Abraham_uk]

LiveLoveThaneKrios wrote...

Weapon:



Instan pwnage. 


Honestly: I don't care what weapon we have, as long as I get to save the galaxy, I'm cool wid it.

Ahh, the joys of weapon customisation.

I have a feeling that things are going to end very badly in Mass Effect 3. Very badly. Casy Hudson said that there would be "No traditional happy ending." It's possible that the only ending where the Reapers lose will be neigh impossible to obtain. You'll have to make all of the right decisions and have galactic readiness maxed out and had a perfect outcome on all of your decisions just to bearly beat the Reapers. In best possible ending most of the races will probably be extinct and nearly all the main characters including Shepard will be dead.

And people still call me an optimist.

[Someone With Mass]

Yeah, but Sovereign didn't initiate the attack. The geth did. Had Sovereign attacked the fleet instead of focusing on getting to the Citadel tower (plowed right through a turian cruiser and did not give a damn), I think Sovereign would've won for the moment.

[TMA LIVE]

Dean, considering the Reapers wipe clean everything, for all we know there were more of them, but they got removed from existence by them. After all, I don't think that is the kind of thing they'd what to leave behind, despite missing one.

We don't know if the weapon was created before or after the Reapers attacked the race. They could have only build one after the attack begain, and didn't build another one before being wiped out.

We don't know if it destroyed itself. Reapers could have destroyed it before it could fire again. (Which is kind of a plothole if the Reapers did take it out, unless they themselves thought nothing could be gained from it from how they damaged it. Then you got a real argument). And if it did, you can't say a better version probably could get made, which would prevent that.

We also don't know if it can only shoot once, and only once. If it did, maybe the resources that would allow a second shot simply weren't available to the species that made it, considering they were going through a Relay lockdown like the races before them. Or got taken out before they could fire the second shot. You can't say the same would happen if the Reapers didn't lock down the race, and that same race prepared by creating more of them, and the resources to keep them protected and firing, before the Reapers arrived.

You're judging something based off little info. If you want to tell me it's too damaged to gain anything useful, I'd buy it. If you're tell me we can't use them as our "only" defense, I'd buy that. But I don't buy it as a highly valuable yet useless.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 26 novembre 2011 - 07:37 .

[Dean_the_Young]

The entire point of finding the conduit was that Sovereign COULDN'T fight off the Citadel fleet, even with the Geth, and so needed the backdoor to take the Citadel and seal the station around it in order to protect itself.

[alex90c]

Abraham_uk wrote...

LiveLoveThaneKrios wrote...

Weapon:

*snip*
Instan pwnage. 


Honestly: I don't care what weapon we have, as long as I get to save the galaxy, I'm cool wid it.

Ahh, the joys of weapon customisation.

I have a feeling that things are going to end very badly in Mass Effect 3. Very badly. Casy Hudson said that there would be "No traditional happy ending." It's possible that the only ending where the Reapers lose will be neigh impossible to obtain. You'll have to make all of the right decisions and have galactic readiness maxed out and had a perfect outcome on all of your decisions just to bearly beat the Reapers. In best possible ending most of the races will probably be extinct and nearly all the main characters including Shepard will be dead.

And people still call me an optimist.

I don't think Bioware would do that, more so considering people's reactions to DA2's ending where there was no sense of happiness or accomplishment; Bioware have said it won't be a "traditional" happy ending, but I'm sure if you're thorough enough you'll be able to get the best ending.

[Someone With Mass]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The entire point of finding the conduit was that Sovereign COULDN'T fight off the Citadel fleet, even with the Geth, and so needed the backdoor to take the Citadel and seal the station around it in order to protect itself.

Vigil said that Sovereign couldn't fight off the united forces of the galaxy, not only the Citadel fleet.

Revealing itself would only serve in additional fleets arriving, like the Arcturus fleet.

Plus, it looked like they were winning pretty hardcore until Shepard let another fleet in.

[111987]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Dean, considering the Reapers wipe clean everything, for all we know there were more of them, but they got removed from existence by them. After all, I don't think that is the kind of thing they'd what to leave behind, despite missing one.

We don't know if the weapon was created before or after the Reapers attacked the race. They could have only build one after the attack begain, and didn't build another one before being wiped out.

We don't know if it destroyed itself. Reapers could have destroyed it before it could fire again. (Which is kind of a plothole if the Reapers did take it out, unless they themselves thought nothing could be gained from it from how they damaged it. Then you got a real argument). And if it did, you can't say a better version probably could get made, which would prevent that.

We also don't know if it can only shoot once, and only once. If it did, maybe the resources that would allow a second shot simply weren't available to the species that made it, considering they were going through a Relay lockdown like the races before them. Or got taken out before they could fire the second shot. You can't say the same would happen if the Reapers didn't lock down the race, and that same race prepared by creating more of them, and the resources to keep them protected and firing, before the Reapers arrived.

If the Reapers had taken out the weapon, there would be no sign of it left. They also could have found the Derelict Reaper, and I doubt they would have let that remain there for everyone to find.

[Dean_the_Young]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Dean, considering the Reapers wipe clean everything, for all we know there were more of them, but they got removed from existence by them. After all, I don't think that is the kind of thing they'd what to leave behind, despite missing one.

The only one they missed is the only one which crcked a planet and could have it's trajectory tracked?


By this argument, you might as well insist that there's billions of dreadnaughts hidden away in darkspace by other races, just waiting to be found. After all, how can you prove there aren't?

Fortunately, negative-proof doesn't work that way.

We don't know if the weapon was created before or after the Reapers attacked the race. They could have only build one after the attack begain, and didn't build another one before being wiped out.

If they could only build one after being attacked, that's rather the point that building thousands isn't feasible.

We don't know if it destroyed itself. Reapers could have destroyed it before it could fire again. (Which is kind of a plothole if the Reapers did take it out, unless they themselves thought nothing could be gained from it from how they damaged it. Then you got a real argument). And if it did, you can't say a better version probably could get made, which would prevent that.

We do know it destroyed itself... unless you're going to argue that TIM's exposition role was a lie. Which is rather selective belief and disbelief at will.

We also don't know if it can only shoot once, and only once. If it did, maybe the resources that would allow a second shot simply weren't available to the species that made it, considering they were going through a Relay lockdown like the races before them. Or got taken out before they could fire the second shot. You can't say the same would happen if the Reapers didn't lock down the race, and that same race prepared by creating more of them, and the resources to keep them protected and firing, before the Reapers arrived.

One of the few things established by the Klendagon Canon is that it broke itself in the first shot by the recoil alone. That would happen regardless of the Mass Relays.

You're judging something based off little info. If you want to tell me it's too damaged to gain anything useful, I'd buy it. If you're tell me we can't use them as our "only" defense, I'd buy that. But I don't buy it as a highly valuable yet useless.

Hence you fail to understand what a white elephant is.

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Vigil said that Sovereign couldn't fight off the united forces of the galaxy, not only the Citadel fleet.

Revealing itself would only serve in additional fleets arriving, like the Arcturus fleet.

And it was the Acturus fleet alone which was able to wear down Sovereign.

Plus, it looked like they were winning pretty hardcore until Shepard let another fleet in.

The Geth were screening the Citadel fleet, but the only part of the battle we actually got any look at was the Destiny Ascension itself. If the DA alone counts as winning for you, sure. It was winning.

Sovereign's strategy directly depended on sealing the station to protect itself, even before it could cut off the Mass Relays (which it could do regardless of the Conduit or not). The Relay network would close regardless of the Conduit plan worked, when Sovereign could direct-link to the station in the initial plan.

Closing the Citadel was to protect Sovereign from the Citadel Fleet, not from the Acturius Fleet.

[TMA LIVE]

111987 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Dean, considering the Reapers wipe clean everything, for all we know there were more of them, but they got removed from existence by them. After all, I don't think that is the kind of thing they'd what to leave behind, despite missing one.

We don't know if the weapon was created before or after the Reapers attacked the race. They could have only build one after the attack begain, and didn't build another one before being wiped out.

We don't know if it destroyed itself. Reapers could have destroyed it before it could fire again. (Which is kind of a plothole if the Reapers did take it out, unless they themselves thought nothing could be gained from it from how they damaged it. Then you got a real argument). And if it did, you can't say a better version probably could get made, which would prevent that.

We also don't know if it can only shoot once, and only once. If it did, maybe the resources that would allow a second shot simply weren't available to the species that made it, considering they were going through a Relay lockdown like the races before them. Or got taken out before they could fire the second shot. You can't say the same would happen if the Reapers didn't lock down the race, and that same race prepared by creating more of them, and the resources to keep them protected and firing, before the Reapers arrived.

If the Reapers had taken out the weapon, there would be no sign of it left. They also could have found the Derelict Reaper, and I doubt they would have let that remain there for everyone to find.

There are signs of Prothean relics everywhere. If they did destroy it, and lefted it, it's probably because they considered it nothing more then a broken shell.

[onelifecrisis]

Dean, would you please expand on this "broke itself" theory of yours? TIM never says it broke itself, and I really don't get what the impact crater on Klendagon has to do with it? So it left a very big bullet hole... why does that mean it broke?

[TMA LIVE]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The only one they missed is the only one which crcked a planet and could have it's trajectory tracked?


By this argument, you might as well insist that there's billions of dreadnaughts hidden away in darkspace by other races, just waiting to be found. After all, how can you prove there aren't?

Fortunately, negative-proof doesn't work that way.

Hey, if you want to call it a plothole as to why the Reapers couldn't find a Dead Reaper or the defunct weapon that fired it, you can and I have no argument there.

And no, I'd say maybe there could have been others, but they're gone now. With only one got missed. And that's only if the race build more of them.

Hence you fail to understand what a white elephant is.

Hence you continue acting like you know better. You yourself won't even describe what a dictionary tells you what a white elephant is.

You can read the dictionary right? "a possession that is useless or troublesome, esp. one that is expensive to maintain or difficult to dispose of."

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 26 novembre 2011 - 07:58 .

[Dean_the_Young]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Dean, would you please expand on this "broke itself" theory of yours? TIM never says it broke itself,

I'm fairly sure he did. Specifically the recoil.

and I really don't get what the impact crater on Klendagon has to do with it? So it left a very big bullet hole... why does that mean it broke?

The Klendagon rift is the sign of how (unnecessarily) overpowered teh Klendagon Canon was for killing a Reaper.

[TMA LIVE]

If they could only build one after being attacked, that's rather the point that building thousands isn't feasible.

It is feasible if a race can make one in a month before being taken out. Especially if built during an attack. Imagine if they were given a year before the attack.

We do know it destroyed itself... unless you're going to argue that TIM's exposition role was a lie. Which is rather selective belief and disbelief at will.

We know it's defunct. That's all we know.

One of the few things established by the Klendagon Canon is that it broke itself in the first shot by the recoil alone. That would happen regardless of the Mass Relays.

Again, who's to say can't make a lessor version that won't break or shoot an overkill shot?

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 26 novembre 2011 - 08:11 .

[onelifecrisis]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Dean, would you please expand on this "broke itself" theory of yours? TIM never says it broke itself,

I'm fairly sure he did. Specifically the recoil.

I'm fairly sure he didn't.
http://www.youtube.c...193/NoxxGhk1eoA

[111987]

TMA LIVE wrote...

111987 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Dean, considering the Reapers wipe clean everything, for all we know there were more of them, but they got removed from existence by them. After all, I don't think that is the kind of thing they'd what to leave behind, despite missing one.

We don't know if the weapon was created before or after the Reapers attacked the race. They could have only build one after the attack begain, and didn't build another one before being wiped out.

We don't know if it destroyed itself. Reapers could have destroyed it before it could fire again. (Which is kind of a plothole if the Reapers did take it out, unless they themselves thought nothing could be gained from it from how they damaged it. Then you got a real argument). And if it did, you can't say a better version probably could get made, which would prevent that.

We also don't know if it can only shoot once, and only once. If it did, maybe the resources that would allow a second shot simply weren't available to the species that made it, considering they were going through a Relay lockdown like the races before them. Or got taken out before they could fire the second shot. You can't say the same would happen if the Reapers didn't lock down the race, and that same race prepared by creating more of them, and the resources to keep them protected and firing, before the Reapers arrived.

If the Reapers had taken out the weapon, there would be no sign of it left. They also could have found the Derelict Reaper, and I doubt they would have let that remain there for everyone to find.

There are signs of Prothean relics everywhere. If they did destroy it, and lefted it, it's probably because they considered it nothing more then a broken shell.

That is defintely not true. Liara and many other characters state how rare it is to find working Prothean technology, and how only a few scatterings of ruins exist of what was once a galactic-wide empire.

If the Reapers had found the weapon, they would have destroyed it. And found the Derelict Reaper. Since neither of those things happened, the most sensible explanation is the Reapers never found it. The weapon was either destroyed through recoil, or simply through age, natural occurences, etc...(it has bene around for 37 million years, after all...)

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]TMA LIVE wrote...

Hey, if you want to call it a plothole as to why the Reapers couldn't find a Dead Reaper or the defunct weapon that fired it, you can and I have no argument there.[/quote]I'm not. In fact, I'm not even the one claiming your theory.

[quote]
And no, I'd say maybe there could have been others, but they're gone now. With only one got missed. And that's only if the race build more of them.[/quote]And your theory is that all these other ones, which didn't leave evidence, were all removed while the balatantly obvious one was 'missed.'

Your support for this theory is... none. Your argument for the validation is that Bioware made a plothole. Your demands for a disproof rest on proving a negative.

Not only are you ignorring the responsibility of supporting a claim, you're waving your idea in the face of Occam's Razor.


[quote][quote]
[quote]Hence you fail to understand what a white elephant is.
[/quote]

Hence you continue acting like you know better. You yourself won't even describe what a dictionary tells you what a white elephant is.[/quote]If you wanted to be told, you could have asked.


[quote]
You can read the dictionary right? "a possession that is useless or troublesome, esp. one that is expensive to maintain or difficult to dispose of."
[/quote]And what it means in terms of military-industrial projects, such as war, is something that is uneconomical: not simply in terms of monetary cost, but because it doesn't bring enough relevant benefits to justify the cost.

White Elephants are useful. They just aren't useful enough to justify them, and they detract from more effective expenditures. They are systems where there are cheaper, reliable-enough alternatives that work well enough are superior alternatives.


A good historic example were the super-heavy tanks of WW2. Individually, one-on-one, heavier tanks were better than lighter tanks: they had bigger guns (to make a kill), and more armor (to resist a kill). But the tank campaigns were won with mobility by light and medium tanks of numbers, not quality: even super-heavy tanks could be knocked out by tactics, infantry, or airpower. Did this mean super-heavy tanks weren't useful weapons? No. But they weren't effective weapons.

The more comparative example would be naval warfare. Dreadnaughts and battleships were some of the biggest, baddest, most damaging machines ever put to sea. They were also largely irrelevant: it was submarines, destroyers, cruisers, and aircraft carriers that were the deciders of battles and campaigns. Battleships served as glorified artillery platforms, not the battle-winning vessels they were intended to be.


To be useful does not mean to be effective. White Elephants are the big, costly projects where the resources could be better spent elsewhere.

[TMA LIVE]

111987 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

111987 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Dean, considering the Reapers wipe clean everything, for all we know there were more of them, but they got removed from existence by them. After all, I don't think that is the kind of thing they'd what to leave behind, despite missing one.

We don't know if the weapon was created before or after the Reapers attacked the race. They could have only build one after the attack begain, and didn't build another one before being wiped out.

We don't know if it destroyed itself. Reapers could have destroyed it before it could fire again. (Which is kind of a plothole if the Reapers did take it out, unless they themselves thought nothing could be gained from it from how they damaged it. Then you got a real argument). And if it did, you can't say a better version probably could get made, which would prevent that.

We also don't know if it can only shoot once, and only once. If it did, maybe the resources that would allow a second shot simply weren't available to the species that made it, considering they were going through a Relay lockdown like the races before them. Or got taken out before they could fire the second shot. You can't say the same would happen if the Reapers didn't lock down the race, and that same race prepared by creating more of them, and the resources to keep them protected and firing, before the Reapers arrived.

If the Reapers had taken out the weapon, there would be no sign of it left. They also could have found the Derelict Reaper, and I doubt they would have let that remain there for everyone to find.

There are signs of Prothean relics everywhere. If they did destroy it, and lefted it, it's probably because they considered it nothing more then a broken shell.

That is defintely not true. Liara and many other characters state how rare it is to find working Prothean technology, and how only a few scatterings of ruins exist of what was once a galactic-wide empire.

If the Reapers had found the weapon, they would have destroyed it. And found the Derelict Reaper. Since neither of those things happened, the most sensible explanation is the Reapers never found it. The weapon was either destroyed through recoil, or simply through age, natural occurences, etc...(it has bene around for 37 million years, after all...)

Like I said. If they did destroy it and left it, they considered it useless for whoever found it. And that argument I can buy. They didn't clear out everything, and left things behind like the ruins on Feros.

If they didn't destroy it, and it did destroyed itself, or only had the resources for one shot. In this case, nothing's to say the remains can't be studied to make a new version that won't destroy itself, or one that'll have the resources to fire again, unless it's so old or damaged that nothing can be gained.

[onelifecrisis]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

White Elephants are useful. They just aren't useful enough to justify them, and they detract from more effective expenditures. They are systems where there are cheaper, reliable-enough alternatives that work well enough are superior alternatives.


A good historic example were the super-heavy tanks of WW2. Individually, one-on-one, heavier tanks were better than lighter tanks: they had bigger guns (to make a kill), and more armor (to resist a kill). But the tank campaigns were won with mobility by light and medium tanks of numbers, not quality: even super-heavy tanks could be knocked out by tactics, infantry, or airpower. Did this mean super-heavy tanks weren't useful weapons? No. But they weren't effective weapons.

The more comparative example would be naval warfare. Dreadnaughts and battleships were some of the biggest, baddest, most damaging machines ever put to sea. They were also largely irrelevant: it was submarines, destroyers, cruisers, and aircraft carriers that were the deciders of battles and campaigns. Battleships served as glorified artillery platforms, not the battle-winning vessels they were intended to be.


To be useful does not mean to be effective. White Elephants are the big, costly projects where the resources could be better spent elsewhere.

Thanks for that explanation. I'd never heard of a white elephant before.

I'm really just playing devil's advocate here, but if one of these guns can take out a reaper, and so can a fleet, then surely the only question is whether the gun "costs" more than a fleet? I put "costs" in inverted commas because there's not just material considerations; for example I imagine that training the crew of an entire fleet takes a lot longer than training the crew of one gun, and there's the cost in lives when the fleet gets wiped out as well.

[Dean_the_Young]

TMA LIVE wrote...

If they could only build one after being attacked, that's rather the point that building thousands isn't feasible.

It is feasible if a race can make one in a month before being taken out. Especially if built during an attack. Imagine if they were given a year before the attack.

The process of extinction of an entire species is hundreds of years. Where do you get that it was a month?

Now, Mass Effect has long been hand-wavy with construction times, but even a mere dreadnaught's construction is treated as a signficant undertaking.

We know it's defunct. That's all we know.

Conceeded.

Again, who's to say can't make a lessor version that won't break or shoot an overkill shot?

That would be called a warship. Or an assault rifle, depending on your size.

Mass Accelerators of various sizes are already established technologies. It's scaled technology that already exists.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 26 novembre 2011 - 08:27 .

[Dean_the_Young]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Dean, would you please expand on this "broke itself" theory of yours? TIM never says it broke itself,

I'm fairly sure he did. Specifically the recoil.

I'm fairly sure he didn't.
http://www.youtube.c...193/NoxxGhk1eoA

Conceeded!

Until/if I can find the reference I'm thinking of, I sincerely admit my error.

[TMA LIVE]

And your theory is that all these other ones, which didn't leave evidence, were all removed while the balatantly obvious one was 'missed.'

Your support for this theory is... none. Your argument for the validation is that Bioware made a plothole. Your demands for a disproof rest on proving a negative.

Not only are you ignorring the responsibility of supporting a claim, you're waving your idea in the face of Occam's Razor.

We only know there's one because a planet got an impacted from a shot. You're saying we should have had more planets take a hit in order to learn there are others? Where's your evidence of that?

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 26 novembre 2011 - 08:33 .

[onelifecrisis]

TMA LIVE wrote...

And your theory is that all these other ones, which didn't leave evidence, were all removed while the balatantly obvious one was 'missed.'

Your support for this theory is... none. Your argument for the validation is that Bioware made a plothole. Your demands for a disproof rest on proving a negative.

Not only are you ignorring the responsibility of supporting a claim, you're waving your idea in the face of Occam's Razor.

We only know there's one because a planet got an impacted from a shot. You're saying we should have had more planets take a hit in order to learn there our others? Where's your evidence of that?

No, I think he's saying that if there were many guns but only one left an impact crater then it would make more sense to have the reapers find and destroy that one and none/fewer of the others.

I think your best bet is to argue that the reapers didn't find any of them. After all, we know they didn't find the one that left the impact crater...

[Merchant2006]

"Well you see, that ancient weapon destroyed them. It could have backfired, but who knows if the weapon could be used to defeat the

"