176 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

D.Kain wrote...

I just believe that you can't complain about oversexualized women anymore, only oversexualization in general, which a lot less people have problems with. 

No, if anything that makes twice as many people have problem with it. Because now not only you have (to simplify it) women complaining about being sexualized, but you also have men complaining about being sexualized, as well.

[D.Kain]

tmp7704 wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

I just believe that you can't complain about oversexualized women anymore, only oversexualization in general, which a lot less people have problems with. 

No, if anything that makes twice as many people have problem with it. Because now not only you have (to simplify it) women complaining about being sexualized, but you also have men complaining about being sexualized, as well.

But women complain about that only because they are the only ones being sexualized. I don't know enough men that would have problems with men in revealing clothes. 

[Aaleel]

Well they did it with Isabella. I didn't expect her to have on plate armor, but barely covering her butt was kind of ridiculous. Then they had the nerve put a metal plate on her elbows and shoulder as if that was going to make so sort of difference lol.

[tmp7704]

D.Kain wrote...

But women complain about that only because they are the only ones being sexualized.

No, they complain about it because they're being sexualized, period. Whether it affects anyone else, that matters far less because it doesn't change in any manner the way they are treated.

Think about it -- if someone was beating you up, calling you names and treating you like dirt, would you rather that to stop, or to have other people treated in the same way? And would having others treated like that make you really feel any better about your own beatings and namecalling?

[Realmzmaster]

D.Kain wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

I just believe that you can't complain about oversexualized women anymore, only oversexualization in general, which a lot less people have problems with. 

No, if anything that makes twice as many people have problem with it. Because now not only you have (to simplify it) women complaining about being sexualized, but you also have men complaining about being sexualized, as well.

But women complain about that only because they are the only ones being sexualized. I don't know enough men that would have problems with men in revealing clothes. 

No women complain because they are being sexualized period. Just because you throw in sexualized men does not mean that the women feel any less sexualized.

[tmp7704]

get out of my head

(kidding. But seeing how Realmzmaster has it well covered, gonna drop this thread to avoid needless redundancy xD

[Realmzmaster]

Aaleel wrote...

Well they did it with Isabella. I didn't expect her to have on plate armor, but barely covering her butt was kind of ridiculous. Then they had the nerve put a metal plate on her elbows and shoulder as if that was going to make so sort of difference lol.

Exactly, Isabela is there at first for eye candy. As you get to know her in the game that opinion can change. She is still eye candy, but there is more to the character than that. I fault the developers, writers and the artist for Isabela's look. It could have been done much better and still get the same effect ( Yes she could still be big breasted. Many women are stylish and big breasted.)

[D.Kain]

tmp7704 wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

But women complain about that only because they are the only ones being sexualized.

No, they complain about it because they're being sexualized, period. Whether it affects anyone else, that matters far less because it doesn't change in any manner the way they are treated.

Think about it -- if someone was beating you up, calling you names and treating you like dirt, would you rather that to stop, or to have other people treated in the same way? And would having others treated like that make you really feel any better about your own beatings and namecalling?

If the ones that were beating me would be beaten, yes that would make me feel better. Also they would perhaps stop beating me up because they would understand how it feels. I think that if everybody was treated as objects from time tom time, everybody would think about the personality more.

Edit: it would also mean that people would understand ANY design that comes with the character because anything is possible.

Basically it wouldn't be a women problem anymore but a problem in general and if the majority really disagreed both men and women it would be solved right?

Modifié par D.Kain, 26 novembre 2011 - 03:02 .

[tmp7704]

D.Kain wrote...

If the ones that were beating me would be beaten, yes that would make me feel better.

Would it make you feel as good as not being beaten yourself?

Would it make you feel good enough to no longer ask to stop getting beaten?
 

Also they would perhaps stop beating me up because they would understand how it feels.

Life has already verified this isn't how it works -- consider prisons for example. These who get beaten there don't stop to beat others but to the contrary, they take out the frustration from getting beaten on weaker targets, themselves. That's how prison hierarchy forms. It doesn't remove the problem, but escalates it. Also consider how research shows that people who suffered abuse as children are actually the ones who tend to wind up as abusers when they grow up.

(ok i did say i was going to drop it. so that's the last one ;/

Modifié par tmp7704, 26 novembre 2011 - 03:02 .

[Aaleel]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Well they did it with Isabella. I didn't expect her to have on plate armor, but barely covering her butt was kind of ridiculous. Then they had the nerve put a metal plate on her elbows and shoulder as if that was going to make so sort of difference lol.

Exactly, Isabela is there at first for eye candy. As you get to know her in the game that opinion can change. She is still eye candy, but there is more to the character than that. I fault the developers, writers and the artist for Isabela's look. It could have been done much better and still get the same effect ( Yes she could still be big breasted. Many women are stylish and big breasted.)

Well it's what a lot of people want.  I remember when Origins came out, people would be on forums asking where they got the sleeveless rogue armor that showed off the midriff.  Or people say yeah, Morrigan was iconic.  Morrigan's outfit wasn't iconic because it was unique it was because half her chest was hanging out.

[The dead fish]

That depends. Sexualized outfits wouldn't be so much an issue, if some mistakes were avoided in my opinion.

1 - Do not force players to watch this, and allow the possibility to change that outfit. If we can not change, keep it as something practical for both gender. And do not give to the player the same stuff with different colors...

2-  I also noticed that many players were not against it if it was rather more a stuff found in the game, than something that appears all the time in advertisemenst and makes mad some people. ( iconic look with Isabela for example, where we see her jumping, showing her butt ) Some people like and wear those clothes, others avoid them and that's it. No one complains.

Saint Row has many sexualized outfits,  I don't think people who buy this game will scream. You like it, use it, you don't, don't use it.

Also, For example, if a male player finds a sexualized outfit in the game, mass effect, do you think he will scream : BIOWARE YOU BASTARD PERVERT ! No. He won't care, if he doesn't like it, he won't wear it, that's it.  And at best, he will find that funny.

3 - If you are giving sexualized outfits option for female characters, we have to give also sexualized outfits options for male characters.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 26 novembre 2011 - 03:10 .

[D.Kain]

Sylvianus wrote...

That depends. Sexualized outfits wouldn't be so much an issue, if some mistakes were avoided in my opinion.

1 - Do not force players to watch this, and allow the possibility to change that outfit. If we can not change, keep it as something practical for both gender. And do not give to the player the same stuff with different colors...

2-  I also noticed that many players were not against it if it was rather more a stuff found in the game, than something that appears all the time in advertisemenst and makes mad some people. ( iconic look with Isabela for example, where we see her jumping, showing her butt ) Some people like and wear those clothes, others avoid them and that's it. No one complains.

Saint Row has many sexualized outfits,  I don't think people who buy this game will scream. You like it, use it, you don't, don't use it.

Also, For example, if a male player finds a sexualized outfit in the game, mass effect, do you think he will scream : BIOWARE YOU BASTARD PERVERT ! No. He won't care, if he doesn't like it, he won't wear it, that's it.  And at best, he will find that funny.

3 - If you are giving sexualized outfits option for female characters, we have to give also sexualized outfits options for male characters.

I completely agree on all of your points. That's how I would have it. 

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvianus,

I can agree with that if I know what the outfit looks like on both male and female. If it looks roughly the same except tailored for the different genders that is fine. I notice with the Dalish armor the look is different on the male and female in DAO. The same armor covers most of the male, but on the female it looks like a leather bikini. That just comes off as wrong.

[D.Kain]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Sylvianus,

I can agree with that if I know what the outfit looks like on both male and female. If it looks roughly the same except tailored for the different genders that is fine. I notice with the Dalish armor the look is different on the male and female in DAO. The same armor covers most of the male, but on the female it looks like a leather bikini. That just comes off as wrong.

Yes it should look as same as possible.

[Nightdragon8]

You know honestly, I dont care either way, Well More clothing for guys plz I really don't want to look at a guy thong or Speedo.

Less clothing for the girls sure not going to hurt my feelings.

Im less about the RP part of it, while the choices i pick are generally what I would pick, As for what the armor looks like... honestly most armor in games look like crap...

While yes I personally would not go out in real comba with anything less than a chainshirt plates for thighs and shins. and a helmet, in a game world I would rather be able to see the faces and stuff. and most of the time when they are running around Because if anything what is the point of having a hairstyel if you aren't going to see it all but 1-2% of the game...

[whykikyouwhy]

I don't see the need for oversexualized clothing or armor for male characters. And certainly not for the sake of some attempt at equality and an even playing field - because it wouldn't be that. The reasons why female characters (in many a genre) are overly sexualized would not quite be the same reasons that male characters would be - the impact would be different. It wouldn't improve anything, imo.

I look at armor and attire this way - does it make sense for the game? does it make sense for the character? If so, then generally I won't have a problem with it. Aveline in heavy armor? That makes sense for her as a person and the role she winds up in. Isabela in the tunic and boots? Same thing - the outfit makes sense for her as both a person and a swashbuckler/rogue. And while there is the titillation factor with Isabela, it's underscored with her character development (the whole judging a book by the cover thing is clearly at work with her story).

[D.Kain]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
The reasons why female characters (in many a genre) are overly sexualized would not quite be the same reasons that male characters would be - the impact would be different. It wouldn't improve anything, imo.

And that reason would be? I don't think I agree with you. 

Other than that I agree that a character indeed has to have a reason to dress anyway he/she is dressed, but as can see, there are zero male characters that have a reason to be dressed in revealing clothes so far. Atleast in DA.

[caradoc2000]

D.Kain wrote...

there are zero male characters that have a reason to be dressed in revealing clothes so far. Atleast in DA.

Then again, in Jade Empire two of the playable male characters (Furious Ming and Tiger Shen) were bare naked waist up - and quite tastefully so. I'd say Bioware characters as a whole have been moderately revealing or at least in character.

[whykikyouwhy]

D.Kain wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...
The reasons why female characters (in many a genre) are overly sexualized would not quite be the same reasons that male characters would be - the impact would be different. It wouldn't improve anything, imo.

And that reason would be? I don't think I agree with you. 

Other than that I agree that a character indeed has to have a reason to dress anyway he/she is dressed, but as can see, there are zero male characters that have a reason to be dressed in revealing clothes so far. Atleast in DA.

Oh, I don't know. There may have been folks who felt that Alistair could have gone into battle shirtless. Heck, it worked for Conan, right?

Female characters are oversexualized for that titillation factor - to appeal to a large portion of the male audience and what they may desire. Or rather, what is perceived to be what they desire. It's the whole sex sells argument.

Whereas I don't think that is the appeal for female gamers. I haven't seen/read anything where a Chippendale's, all male revue, angle in a game would be seen as a positive from the female audience. Oversexualized characters just aren't something that a good chunk of the female audience is drawn to. T&A isn't often used as a marketing ploy to attract women to a product. (This may be a generalization, but it seems to be the case from my experience.)

Others have already phrased this more eloquently than I can - Realmzmaster and tmp7704 have already stated that if you add more sexualization in a game, all it does is undermine the effort to rid a game (or whatever) of sexualization. It doubles it. And thus, it blurs the reason for why it shouldn't exist. It's stacking wrongs upon wrongs.

So unless the underlying motive is just to desensitize someone to oversexualized characters, I don't see the point in having the menfolk running around in a chainmail belt and undergarments. That doesn't add more clothing or better reasoning for why women are in skimpy outfits. It doesn't change that. It just amounts to more skin in Thedas, and while I have been known to celebrate nakedness, if it doesn't make sense in my game, I'm not going to be cheering or vying for it to be there. 

[D.Kain]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Oversexualized characters just aren't something that a good chunk of the female audience is drawn to.

Oh come on, you know how many teen girl fans bioware games would have if they oversexualized male chars? 
They just haven't tried. 

But ok yeah I get your point. 

I see that majority of people have a problem with oversexualization in general, regardless of gender. I thought that gender was the bigger issue, guess I was wrong. 

Modifié par D.Kain, 26 novembre 2011 - 06:20 .

[HiroVoid]

My male mage rocked the heck out of his chasind robes at the beginning of the game.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 26 novembre 2011 - 10:29 .

[bleetman]

No. Get rid of them.

DA2's refreshing lack of pointlessly skimpy armour (I'm looking at you, DA1 Dalish leather) on females was one of the few definitive improvements over Origins, as far as I'm concerned.

Modifié par bleetman, 26 novembre 2011 - 09:30 .

[GodWood]

D.Kain wrote...
What I thought about is, what if there were some revealing armors in the game, but they were revealing for both genders equally?

No.

For me it's not a 'feminist' issue, it's a "it looks ****ing stupid and ruins the verisimilitude of the game's setting" issue.
Save the 'revealing' outfits for the brothel workers.

[Loc'n'lol]

tmp7704 wrote...

Courtesy of Nyoka from another thread (and since a picture is worth thousand words)



pretty much sums the concept up.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Pure Gold !


OT: I thought Bethany's outfit was fine. Morrigan's was okay. Isabella's was pushing it. Pictures in OP = no, just no. Might as well be wearing a bikini.

[xkg]

Voted no.
I have no interest in staring at half naked males in games I am playing.