180 réponses à ce sujet

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Klidi wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

@Morwen.
I do not see conscripting Loghain as 'letting him off' I simply refuse to do it, because having read the books and played the games I HATE him.
He is nothing more than a sociopath, therefore there is no redemption or forgiveness for him.

I so agree. I spared him once and his pathetic, arrogant accusation of Wynne in Ostagar pissed me off. Wynne is a preachy old bat, but she is not a general, she was not the mastermind behind the strategy of the battle at Ostagar. She was just one of the soldiers. It was not her duty to know where the king was or to protect him.
If he showed any bit of regret, or if he at least admited that he was wrong, it wold be different.

Then I ordered the books because I heard again and again that I can't understand him without it and that I would change my mind about him if I did. 
Well, I didn't. In fact it made it worse - before I couldn't stand him, because I thought he was an arrogant bastard. Now I hate him, because, as you said, he's a sociopath.

Nice to see I'm not the only who thinks the same and openly admitts it

And again, he does not fit the diagnosis of that disorder whatsoever.

It is your regular opinion, and does not fit the regualr diagnosis of Loghain:D

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 29 novembre 2011 - 08:22 .

[Costin_Razvan]

It is your regular opinion, and does not fit the regualr diagnosis of Loghain

I and every Loghain fan on these boards would beg to ****ing differ.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

It is your regular opinion, and does not fit the regualr diagnosis of Loghain

I and every Loghain fan on these boards would beg to ****ing differ.

I care not and stand by my judgement
PS. No need to swear.

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 29 novembre 2011 - 08:48 .

[tklivory]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I and every Loghain fan on these boards would beg to ****ing differ.

I'm sorry, I really know I shouldn't laugh, but my mind tried to conjure up what "****ing differ" would look like, and the bizarre mental image I came up with made me giggle...

*ahem* sorry, carry on...

I believe I've already said my piece re: Loghain upthread a bit, but I just wanted to add one more note:

In the end, I am glad that Loghain was put into Dragon Age.  As a pragmatist/cynic mix myself (in the classical Greek sense, not the modernistic sense, that is), there is not a single character in Dragon Age that I find inexplicable or unjustifiable to me.  Even when I (or more specifically, my Warden) don't agree with their actions, I can always explain their actions based on my understanding of their character, which I definitely can NOT say about characters in other games.

This must be why I like the game so much - they really tried to make the characters real -  not good, not happy, not heroes, not outright evil (with the possible exception of Arl Howe) - but simply people who made decisions, and then had to live with the consequences of those decisions.

Now, some people may perceive these characters as good/happy/heroes/evil/&c, but the writing is there to allow multiple interpretations of the characters.  So, to DG et al - good jorb!

[Costin_Razvan]

I wouldn't praise DG for that kind of writing, rather Mary Kirby, who ALSO wrote Orzammar if I am correct.

 I care not and stand by my judgement 
PS. No need to swear.

Good for you.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 29 novembre 2011 - 09:07 .

[tklivory]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I wouldn't praise DG for that kind of writing, rather Mary Kirby, who ALSO wrote Orzammar if I am correct.

I actually don't know all the writers' names, or I would thank them all by name.  Who did Mary Kirby write for?  Loghain, Orzammar, and anyone else?

Or, is there a best place to look for that info already in the BSN?  I'd love to know who wrote all these characters.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I wouldn't praise DG for that kind of writing, rather Mary Kirby, who ALSO wrote Orzammar if I am correct.

 I care not and stand by my judgement 
PS. No need to swear.

Good for you.

Agreed, it is good for me!

[Costin_Razvan]

Check the DA wiki for that information.

[tklivory]

*off to wiki diggin'*

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I wouldn't praise DG for that kind of writing, rather Mary Kirby, who ALSO wrote Orzammar if I am correct.

 I care not and stand by my judgement 
PS. No need to swear.

Good for you.

Agreed, it is good for me!

Sorry to say but to me it's an incomplete judgment, given that you've never ever recruited him and therefore do not know the full picture. Never mind that medically speaking, you are wrong. Loghain is not a sociopath. He is a lot of things and his action are definitely debatable.... but it's like saying that Alistair suffers from bipolar disorder. Plainly untrue.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I wouldn't praise DG for that kind of writing, rather Mary Kirby, who ALSO wrote Orzammar if I am correct.

 I care not and stand by my judgement 
PS. No need to swear.

Good for you.

Agreed, it is good for me!

Sorry to say but to me it's an incomplete judgment, given that you've never ever recruited him and therefore do not know the full picture. Never mind that medically speaking, you are wrong. Loghain is not a sociopath. He is a lot of things and his action are definitely debatable.... but it's like saying that Alistair suffers from bipolar disorder. Plainly untrue.

Medically speaking, yes I am wrong. However his distinct LACK of remorse tells otherwise. That to me "stinks" of sociopath, for they feel nothing! No remorse, no love, no nothing!

Edit. Tell/show me, WHERE in the books or game it shows Loghain feeling/being remorseful for what he has done?......Such as when he LIED to Maric about Katriel OR when he left Cailan to die OR when he screwed Rowen.
The definition of a sociopath is they feel nothing for anyone other than them selfs, which =Loghain!

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 29 novembre 2011 - 09:56 .

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I wouldn't praise DG for that kind of writing, rather Mary Kirby, who ALSO wrote Orzammar if I am correct.

 I care not and stand by my judgement 
PS. No need to swear.

Good for you.

Agreed, it is good for me!

Sorry to say but to me it's an incomplete judgment, given that you've never ever recruited him and therefore do not know the full picture. Never mind that medically speaking, you are wrong. Loghain is not a sociopath. He is a lot of things and his action are definitely debatable.... but it's like saying that Alistair suffers from bipolar disorder. Plainly untrue.

Medically speaking, yes I am wrong. However his distinct LACK of remorse tells otherwise. That to me "stinks" of sociopath, for they feel nothing! No remorse, no love, no nothing!

Except that he very clearly feels remorse and shows that several times. He is willing to die and have his soul destroyed to atone. He even says so on several occasions, referring to many of his deeds. He has loved (Rowan and even more so, Maric...yes, I went there), he shows plenty of remorse, regret and sorrow. I quoted several instances in this very thread which you conveniently ignored. That is what I meant by your judgment of him being incomplete, as you never saw these things.

Edit: He feels sadness over Cailan's loss, yet he knew that there was no saving that fool without losing even more lives if not the entire army. Screwed Rowan how? He gave her up to serve his country even though it tore his heart to shreds, it's not like he jilted her because he had lost interest or something. As for Katriel....she gets sympathy from me, yes, but she engineered her own downfall rather well through being a spy, being responsible for West Hill and intending to betray the entire rebellion.

Modifié par Persephone, 29 novembre 2011 - 10:03 .

[ShimmeringDjinn]

HA! His comments at RTO suggest otherwise love!
Seems to me Persephone that YOU are only seeing what you want to see.
As for him willing to see his soul destroyed, that is rubbish. When Riordan (The idiot) decided to 'make him a Warden', no one knew that their soul would be destroyed, so your point is VOID!

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 29 novembre 2011 - 10:04 .

[Merilsell]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...
This, exactly. The Landsmeet decision remains one of the most polarizing and hotly-contested aspects of the game, long after the other arguments have gone stale. If Loghain was truly just a standard black-hat evil character or "sociopath" (people keep using that word. I do not think it means what they think it means), there would be no discussion, merely the sound of heads falling into baskets all over the gaming world. But it's not like that, and the ambiguity of this and all the other situations in DAO is what gives the game life.

Agreed. I think my problem with Loghain is that I don't care for him. At all. I'm simply very, very much apathic toward Loghain, nothing more, nothing less. But I can see why one might want to spare him. I can easily acknowledge that he is more than the standard villian and well written with his own demons and such. Still I have yet to find a Warden who spares him, instead to send his head flying. Maybe I simply care too much for Alistair, so there is that. *shrug*

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

HA! His comments at RTO suggest otherwise love!
Seems to me Persephone that YOU are only seeing what you want to see.

So RTO where he is constantly baited and responds out of anger, self loathing and pain erases everything else there is beyond that? It isn't as b&w as that, LOVE. Not by a long shot. And I recruited him several times, know every bit of his dialogue. No need to want to see anything, it's right there in the game.

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

As for him willing to see his soul destroyed, that is rubbish. When Riordan (The idiot) decided to 'make him a Warden', no one knew that their soul would be destroyed, so your point is VOID!

It isn't VOID at all, dearie, as Loghain is THERE when Riordan spills the beans and STILL he wants to go through with it so you may live and he may find atonement. Don't explain events of the game you never saw to me, I have seen them after all.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

HA! His comments at RTO suggest otherwise love!
Seems to me Persephone that YOU are only seeing what you want to see.

So RTO where he is constantly baited and responds out of anger, self loathing and pain erases everything else there is beyond that? It isn't as b&w as that, LOVE. Not by a long shot. And I recruited him several times, know every bit of his dialogue. No need to want to see anything, it's right there in the game.

"Leave him to the wolves" is that not what he says about the Kings body?.......Tell me, WHERE oh WHERE is the humanity in that statment?

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

As for him willing to see his soul destroyed, that is rubbish. When Riordan (The idiot) decided to 'make him a Warden', no one knew that their soul would be destroyed, so your point is VOID!

It isn't VOID at all, dearie, as Loghain is THERE when Riordan spills the beans

Not in my game lovely!
And besides IT DOES NOT COUNT! My point was your boyfriend -at the time when Mr idiot Riordan offered to make him a warden- HE didn't know that his 'loving soul' would be destroyed = you point was void.

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 29 novembre 2011 - 10:14 .

[Persephone]

Merilsell wrote...

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...
This, exactly. The Landsmeet decision remains one of the most polarizing and hotly-contested aspects of the game, long after the other arguments have gone stale. If Loghain was truly just a standard black-hat evil character or "sociopath" (people keep using that word. I do not think it means what they think it means), there would be no discussion, merely the sound of heads falling into baskets all over the gaming world. But it's not like that, and the ambiguity of this and all the other situations in DAO is what gives the game life.

Agreed. I think my problem with Loghain is that I don't care for him. At all. I'm simply very, very much apathic toward Loghain, nothing more, nothing less. But I can see why one might want to spare him. I can easily acknowledge that he is more than the standard villian and well written with his own demons and such. Still I have yet to find a Warden who spares him, instead to send his head flying. Maybe I simply care too much for Alistair, so there is that. *shrug*

Perfectly fine, Meri. I have no issues with that. I may spare him in in 98% of my games but I can see that there are reasons not to. They simply do not convince me. And doing it to keep Alistair isn't very high on that list, much as I adore the dear boy.

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

As for him willing to see his soul destroyed, that is rubbish. When Riordan (The idiot) decided to 'make him a Warden', no one knew that their soul would be destroyed, so your point is VOID!

It isn't VOID at all, dearie, as Loghain is THERE when Riordan spills the beans

Not in my game lovely!

So? Doesn't render my statement void at all. The point stands and remains accurate.

[Klidi]

Persephone wrote...
Sorry to say but to me it's an incomplete judgment, given that you've never ever recruited him and therefore do not know the full picture. Never mind that medically speaking, you are wrong. Loghain is not a sociopath. He is a lot of things and his action are definitely debatable.... but it's like saying that Alistair suffers from bipolar disorder. Plainly untrue.

Sorry to say that's in fact quite enough an usually normal way to judge actions of a criminal. Criminals are not given that chance - say, to live in a same house as the jury so they would get 'the full picture' and to find out that they had a tragic childhood.

Also, that Loghain is not a sociopath is your opinion, not a dogma. Right?

Loghain repeatedly performed acts that are grounds - you may think it was 'right' or 'necessary' but those things were still against the law of Ferelden: betrayal of the king; selling people to slavery, poisoning of the Arl Eamon.

Loghain repeatedly lied or cheated to achieve his plan - he lied to the King, he lied about the Wardens, he hired assassins to get rid of the people who could prove his lies.

Loghain is irritable and aggressive - we can see that in Ostagar, during the first Landsmeet, during his talk with Anora, when he marches to the Arl Eamon's estate and during the second Landsmeet.

Loghain supports Howe, ignoring his crimes, which leads to deaths, imprisonment and torture of many people and the abduction of his own daughter.

Loghain does not show any hint of remorse for any of his crimes, e.g. he's indifferent to the fate of the elves in alienage and tries to rationalize it.

That's how I see him. And based on that, I say he's sociopath.

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

HA! His comments at RTO suggest otherwise love!
Seems to me Persephone that YOU are only seeing what you want to see.

So RTO where he is constantly baited and responds out of anger, self loathing and pain erases everything else there is beyond that? It isn't as b&w as that, LOVE. Not by a long shot. And I recruited him several times, know every bit of his dialogue. No need to want to see anything, it's right there in the game.

"Leave him to the wolves" is that not what he says about the Kings body?.......Tell me, WHERE oh WHERE is the humanity in that statment?

He wants to forget. Forget what could have been and now never will be again. He is angry, distressed and clearly in pain. I understand his loathing of Cailan, never mind that his reaction may also be due to discovering Cailan's betrayal of Anora AND Ferelden only moments earlier. If he had not CARED either way, THAT would be lacking humanity.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Klidi wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Sorry to say but to me it's an incomplete judgment, given that you've never ever recruited him and therefore do not know the full picture. Never mind that medically speaking, you are wrong. Loghain is not a sociopath. He is a lot of things and his action are definitely debatable.... but it's like saying that Alistair suffers from bipolar disorder. Plainly untrue.

Sorry to say that's in fact quite enough an usually normal way to judge actions of a criminal. Criminals are not given that chance - say, to live in a same house as the jury so they would get 'the full picture' and to find out that they had a tragic childhood.

Also, that Loghain is not a sociopath is your opinion, not a dogma. Right?

This

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

HA! His comments at RTO suggest otherwise love!
Seems to me Persephone that YOU are only seeing what you want to see.

So RTO where he is constantly baited and responds out of anger, self loathing and pain erases everything else there is beyond that? It isn't as b&w as that, LOVE. Not by a long shot. And I recruited him several times, know every bit of his dialogue. No need to want to see anything, it's right there in the game.

"Leave him to the wolves" is that not what he says about the Kings body?.......Tell me, WHERE oh WHERE is the humanity in that statment?

He wants to forget.

Yeah he wants to forget he was an arse and killed his daughters husband and his alleged best friends son....Oh not to mention he was also his lovers son too......If Cailan didn't look so much like Maric (WHO I love) one could argue he was Loghains .
Do you STILL think he would have left the young King to die, had he been his then?

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 29 novembre 2011 - 10:19 .

[Klidi]

Persephone wrote...

He wants to forget. Forget what could have been and now never will be again. He is angry, distressed and clearly in pain. I understand his loathing of Cailan, never mind that his reaction may also be due to discovering Cailan's betrayal of Anora AND Ferelden only moments earlier. If he had not CARED either way, THAT would be lacking humanity.

Where did Cailan betray Anora AND Ferelden? And please, don't say only 'RtO documents'. Please point out to me the part of those documents that can prove what you're saying.