180 réponses à ce sujet

[tklivory]

Heh, this whole debate made me think of my very fist FanFiction piece (not self-promoting, link provided for the curious).  I wrote the piece in response to an Alistair thread prompt, but it was definitely not a fluffy piece for poor Alistair.  Anway, anytime I go back and read it, I find myself realizing that I encapsulated my view of Loghain's character pretty well within the confines of that little story.  Even got a compliment about my depiction of Loghain from Meri (strong praise indeed! )  The view certainly won't match other people's view of Loghain, but it is a view that prevents me from automatically reaching for the Beheadin' Sword o' Doom ™ every time.

Granted, Loghain is well-written enough to incorporate many different in-your-head scenarios to explain your actions.  Hell, since that first story, I've gone back and rewritten Loghain many times in (unpublished) scenarios.  In fact, when I got a friend of mine to play the game, she had a 'oh, that bastard's going down' type of attitude towards Loghain.  I honestly don't recall having that visceral of a reaction the first time, but I did kill him the first time (non-canon Warden for me) because my first Warden was a City Elf who was really upset about the whole slavery thing.

I love characters that, even after all this time, inspire such back and forth discussion.  Must run in the Mac Tir family.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Klidi wrote...

Persephone wrote...

He wants to forget. Forget what could have been and now never will be again. He is angry, distressed and clearly in pain. I understand his loathing of Cailan, never mind that his reaction may also be due to discovering Cailan's betrayal of Anora AND Ferelden only moments earlier. If he had not CARED either way, THAT would be lacking humanity.

Where did Cailan betray Anora AND Ferelden? And please, don't say only 'RtO documents'. Please point out to me the part of those documents that can prove what you're saying.

This is what I'd like to know too Klidi. I recall nothing in the game which suggest Cailan betrayed anyone.

[Persephone]

Klidi wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Sorry to say but to me it's an incomplete judgment, given that you've never ever recruited him and therefore do not know the full picture. Never mind that medically speaking, you are wrong. Loghain is not a sociopath. He is a lot of things and his action are definitely debatable.... but it's like saying that Alistair suffers from bipolar disorder. Plainly untrue.

Sorry to say that's in fact quite enough an usually normal way to judge actions of a criminal. Criminals are not given that chance - say, to live in a same house as the jury so they would get 'the full picture' and to find out that they had a tragic childhood.

Also, that Loghain is not a sociopath is your opinion, not a dogma. Right?

Loghain repeatedly performed acts that are grounds - you may think it was 'right' or 'necessary' but those things were still against the law of Ferelden: betrayal of the king; selling people to slavery, poisoning of the Arl Eamon.

Loghain repeatedly lied or cheated to achieve his plan - he lied to the King, he lied about the Wardens, he hired assassins to get rid of the people who could prove his lies.

Loghain is irritable and aggressive - we can see that in Ostagar, during the first Landsmeet, during his talk with Anora, when he marches to the Arl Eamon's estate and during the second Landsmeet.

Loghain supports Howe, ignoring his crimes, which leads to deaths, imprisonment and torture of many people and the abduction of his own daughter.

Loghain does not show any hint of remorse for any of his crimes, e.g. he's indifferent to the fate of the elves in alienage and tries to rationalize it.

That's how I see him. And based on that, I say he's sociopath.

This is a game, not real life. And given that my Warden refuses to play judge, jury and executioner all in one (Tyrants do that and I get a kick out of not doing what Loghain expects, I admit it), it is of no concern to me.

No, it's not a dogma, just a medical fact.

Only that most of these things weren't lies but very plausible conclusions, given the Wardens' previous treacheries. (The Calling, Sophia Dryden)

Being irritable and aggressive does not make you a sociopath.

Supports Howe? He is disgusted by him but circumstances forced an alliance of sorts. An alliance he clearly despises.

Rationalizing tragedy makes no one a sociopath either. Tis a matter of culture. Much as I also regret what happened in the Alienage, his motives weren't malice or lack of empathy but practicality. 

Modifié par Persephone, 29 novembre 2011 - 10:30 .

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

HA! His comments at RTO suggest otherwise love!
Seems to me Persephone that YOU are only seeing what you want to see.

So RTO where he is constantly baited and responds out of anger, self loathing and pain erases everything else there is beyond that? It isn't as b&w as that, LOVE. Not by a long shot. And I recruited him several times, know every bit of his dialogue. No need to want to see anything, it's right there in the game.

"Leave him to the wolves" is that not what he says about the Kings body?.......Tell me, WHERE oh WHERE is the humanity in that statment?

He wants to forget.

Yeah he wants to forget he was an arse and killed his daughters husband and his alleged best friends son....Oh not to mention he was also his lovers son too......If Cailan didn't look so much like Maric (WHO I love) one could argue he was Loghains .
Do you STILL think he would have left the young King to die, had he been his then?

Cailan made his own fate and caused his own death by being a glory hounding fool. A fact many are willing to ignore.

And don't put words in my mouth, please.

And yes, he would have. The retreat was not about killing Cailan. (He would have urged Cailan on rather than warned him not to be at the front lines otherwise) but about saving what was left of the army from utter defeat.

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Klidi wrote...

Persephone wrote...

He wants to forget. Forget what could have been and now never will be again. He is angry, distressed and clearly in pain. I understand his loathing of Cailan, never mind that his reaction may also be due to discovering Cailan's betrayal of Anora AND Ferelden only moments earlier. If he had not CARED either way, THAT would be lacking humanity.

Where did Cailan betray Anora AND Ferelden? And please, don't say only 'RtO documents'. Please point out to me the part of those documents that can prove what you're saying.

This is what I'd like to know too Klidi. I recall nothing in the game which suggest Cailan betrayed anyone.

The RTO documents are written proof. And David Gaider confirmed that Cailan planned to ditch his wife to marry the Orlesian Empress. Selling out his country, pissing on his father's legacy and sacrifices AND betraying a loyal, competent wife in one stroke.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

HA! His comments at RTO suggest otherwise love!
Seems to me Persephone that YOU are only seeing what you want to see.

So RTO where he is constantly baited and responds out of anger, self loathing and pain erases everything else there is beyond that? It isn't as b&w as that, LOVE. Not by a long shot. And I recruited him several times, know every bit of his dialogue. No need to want to see anything, it's right there in the game.

"Leave him to the wolves" is that not what he says about the Kings body?.......Tell me, WHERE oh WHERE is the humanity in that statment?

He wants to forget.

Yeah he wants to forget he was an arse and killed his daughters husband and his alleged best friends son....Oh not to mention he was also his lovers son too......If Cailan didn't look so much like Maric (WHO I love) one could argue he was Loghains .
Do you STILL think he would have left the young King to die, had he been his then?

Cailan made his own fate and caused his own death by being a glory hounding fool. A fact many are willing to ignore.

And don't put words in my mouth, please.

And yes, he would have. The retreat was not about killing Cailan. (He would have urged Cailan on rather than warned him not to be at the front lines otherwise) but about saving what was left of the army from utter defeat.

I don't ignore the fact that Cailan ran after glory, I admit he did. HOWEVER, we only see him on screen for what....60 seconds? if that?.....How does one get to know someone else in that amount of time

Lol who's putting words in your mouth? Not me, since you seem to have enough words in your mouth for the whole website.
When you say "Yes he would have" do you mean, "yes Loghain would have left the King to die, had Cailan been his"? Cos if so then.......WOW! Here you are telling us the man is not a sociopath, and yet in the next breath you say he would do that? Make your mind up would you

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Klidi wrote...

Persephone wrote...

He wants to forget. Forget what could have been and now never will be again. He is angry, distressed and clearly in pain. I understand his loathing of Cailan, never mind that his reaction may also be due to discovering Cailan's betrayal of Anora AND Ferelden only moments earlier. If he had not CARED either way, THAT would be lacking humanity.

Where did Cailan betray Anora AND Ferelden? And please, don't say only 'RtO documents'. Please point out to me the part of those documents that can prove what you're saying.

This is what I'd like to know too Klidi. I recall nothing in the game which suggest Cailan betrayed anyone.

The RTO documents are written proof. And David Gaider confirmed that Cailan planned to ditch his wife to marry the Orlesian Empress. Selling out his country, pissing on his father's legacy and sacrifices AND betraying a loyal, competent wife in one stroke.

Link please? I would like to see what Mr Gaider wrote first hand.

PS. Maric also sold out his country, because HE also had communications with Orlais........He just didn't tell Loghain about it!

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 29 novembre 2011 - 10:35 .

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

I don't ignore the fact that Cailan ran after glory, I admit he did. HOWEVER, we only see him on screen for what....60 seconds? if that?.....How does one get to know someone else in that amount of time

Lol who's putting words in your mouth? Not me, since you seem to have enough words in your mouth for the whole website.
When you say "Yes he would have" do you mean, "yes Loghain would have left the King to die, had Cailan been his"? Cos if so then.......WOW! Here you are telling us the man is not a sociopath, and yet in the next breath you say he would do that? Make your mind up would you

The War Council Scene and his whining about there being no Arch Demon sightings are enough for me to want to smack him silly. Or throttle him. "No archdemon waaaaaaah." "Strategies are sooooooo boring..." nonsense....gah, to have such a fool in charge of an army, a whole nation....terrible.

Such a decision, such a sacrifice would not make him a sociopath either. Parents who are unable to save their children from the doom they inflicted upon themselves sadly aren't a rarity. Choosing the greater good over personal feelings, no matter how strong, is a tragic and harrowing trait.

[Klidi]

[quote]Persephone wrote...

My Warden doesn't like to play executioner, either, and he would much prefer to put Loghain in prison. On the other hand, even though it's a game, it's real life for my Warden. So he makes 'real life' decisions. And so yes, it matters to him very much that a man who was publicly convicted of his crimes should go unpunished - especially as those were not some petty offences like pick-pocketing, such us treason of a king or selling people in slavery.

So he he said that the Wardens killed Cailan because of Sophia Dryden?  And that is why he ordered arrest of any surviving Wardens (in Lothering), and repeatedly hired assassins to get rid of them (Zevran and then in the Mountain Pass)? 

I don't see him 'clearly despise' alliance with Howe, until the Landsmeet, when Howe is dead already and his crimes revealed. He was Howe's superior. I don't buy 'my subordinate did it, I didn't know about it, I'm innocent and disguted!" Not in real life, not in a game.

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Klidi wrote...

Persephone wrote...

He wants to forget. Forget what could have been and now never will be again. He is angry, distressed and clearly in pain. I understand his loathing of Cailan, never mind that his reaction may also be due to discovering Cailan's betrayal of Anora AND Ferelden only moments earlier. If he had not CARED either way, THAT would be lacking humanity.

Where did Cailan betray Anora AND Ferelden? And please, don't say only 'RtO documents'. Please point out to me the part of those documents that can prove what you're saying.

This is what I'd like to know too Klidi. I recall nothing in the game which suggest Cailan betrayed anyone.

The RTO documents are written proof. And David Gaider confirmed that Cailan planned to ditch his wife to marry the Orlesian Empress. Selling out his country, pissing on his father's legacy and sacrifices AND betraying a loyal, competent wife in one stroke.

Link please? I would like to see what Mr Gaider wrote first hand.

PS. Maric also sold out his country, because HE also had communications with Orlais........He just didn't tell Loghain about it!

Communications aren't a marriage treaty.

And here: http://dragonage.wik...elene_&_Loghain

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

I don't ignore the fact that Cailan ran after glory, I admit he did. HOWEVER, we only see him on screen for what....60 seconds? if that?.....How does one get to know someone else in that amount of time

Lol who's putting words in your mouth? Not me, since you seem to have enough words in your mouth for the whole website.
When you say "Yes he would have" do you mean, "yes Loghain would have left the King to die, had Cailan been his"? Cos if so then.......WOW! Here you are telling us the man is not a sociopath, and yet in the next breath you say he would do that? Make your mind up would you

The War Council Scene and his whining about there being no Arch Demon sightings are enough for me to want to smack him silly. Or throttle him. "No archdemon waaaaaaah." "Strategies are sooooooo boring..." nonsense....gah, to have such a fool in charge of an army, a whole nation....terrible.

Such a decision, such a sacrifice would not make him a sociopath either. Parents who are unable to save their children from the doom they inflicted upon themselves sadly aren't a rarity. Choosing the greater good over personal feelings, no matter how strong, is a tragic and harrowing trait.

I notice you refrained from answering my question....Is it mayhap because you have no answer?

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Klidi wrote...

Persephone wrote...

He wants to forget. Forget what could have been and now never will be again. He is angry, distressed and clearly in pain. I understand his loathing of Cailan, never mind that his reaction may also be due to discovering Cailan's betrayal of Anora AND Ferelden only moments earlier. If he had not CARED either way, THAT would be lacking humanity.

Where did Cailan betray Anora AND Ferelden? And please, don't say only 'RtO documents'. Please point out to me the part of those documents that can prove what you're saying.

This is what I'd like to know too Klidi. I recall nothing in the game which suggest Cailan betrayed anyone.

The RTO documents are written proof. And David Gaider confirmed that Cailan planned to ditch his wife to marry the Orlesian Empress. Selling out his country, pissing on his father's legacy and sacrifices AND betraying a loyal, competent wife in one stroke.

Link please? I would like to see what Mr Gaider wrote first hand.

PS. Maric also sold out his country, because HE also had communications with Orlais........He just didn't tell Loghain about it!

Communications aren't a marriage treaty.

And here: http://dragonage.wik...elene_&_Loghain

Thank you so very much my dear, I shall read it now

[Persephone]

[quote]Klidi wrote...

[quote]Persephone wrote...

My Warden doesn't like to play executioner, either, and he would much prefer to put Loghain in prison. On the other hand, even though it's a game, it's real life for my Warden. So he makes 'real life' decisions. And so yes, it matters to him very much that a man who was publicly convicted of his crimes should go unpunished - especially as those were not some petty offences like pick-pocketing, such us treason of a king or selling people in slavery.

So he he said that the Wardens killed Cailan because of Sophia Dryden?  And that is why he ordered arrest of any surviving Wardens (in Lothering), and repeatedly hired assassins to get rid of them (Zevran and then in the Mountain Pass)? 

I don't see him 'clearly despise' alliance with Howe, until the Landsmeet, when Howe is dead already and his crimes revealed. He was Howe's superior. I don't buy 'my subordinate did it, I didn't know about it, I'm innocent and disguted!" Not in real life, not in a game.

[/quote]

Being conscripted is hardly going unpunished.

And you can see it in all his scenes with Howe.

He doesn't say it but given his experiences with the Wardens in The Calling, it is a sensible conclusion.

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

I don't ignore the fact that Cailan ran after glory, I admit he did. HOWEVER, we only see him on screen for what....60 seconds? if that?.....How does one get to know someone else in that amount of time

Lol who's putting words in your mouth? Not me, since you seem to have enough words in your mouth for the whole website.
When you say "Yes he would have" do you mean, "yes Loghain would have left the King to die, had Cailan been his"? Cos if so then.......WOW! Here you are telling us the man is not a sociopath, and yet in the next breath you say he would do that? Make your mind up would you

The War Council Scene and his whining about there being no Arch Demon sightings are enough for me to want to smack him silly. Or throttle him. "No archdemon waaaaaaah." "Strategies are sooooooo boring..." nonsense....gah, to have such a fool in charge of an army, a whole nation....terrible.

Such a decision, such a sacrifice would not make him a sociopath either. Parents who are unable to save their children from the doom they inflicted upon themselves sadly aren't a rarity. Choosing the greater good over personal feelings, no matter how strong, is a tragic and harrowing trait.

I notice you refrained from answering my question....Is it mayhap because you have no answer?

I answered it quite clearly. Maybe not what you wanted to hear though.:happy:

[Persephone]

[quote]ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Link please? I would like to see what Mr Gaider wrote first hand.

PS. Maric also sold out his country, because HE also had communications with Orlais........He just didn't tell Loghain about it!

[/quote]

[quote]
Communications aren't a marriage treaty.

And here: http://dragonage.wik...elene_&_Loghain

[/quote]
Thank you so very much my dear, I shall read it now

[/quote]

I am still sad that so much of it was cut and only fragments of it remain. It would have been amazing to see in game.

Modifié par Persephone, 29 novembre 2011 - 10:46 .

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Taken from the link that the argumentative Persephone profided.
David Gaider: Yes. They don't know for sure if she's infertile, but she wasn't having a[ny] childs.
SO, then the King was right to scout a round for another wife and set her aside......OR am I missing something?

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Taken from the link that the argumentative Persephone profided.
David Gaider: Yes. They don't know for sure if she's infertile, but she wasn't having a[ny] childs.
SO, then the King was right to scout a round for another wife and set her aside......OR am I missing something?

Was he? Even Henry VIII waited till his wife was well into her forties until he ditched her to marry Anne Boleyn.

So would you justify Henry VIII's rotten treatment of Katharine Of Aragon too?

[Merilsell]

Persephone wrote...

Merilsell wrote...

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...
This, exactly. The Landsmeet decision remains one of the most polarizing and hotly-contested aspects of the game, long after the other arguments have gone stale. If Loghain was truly just a standard black-hat evil character or "sociopath" (people keep using that word. I do not think it means what they think it means), there would be no discussion, merely the sound of heads falling into baskets all over the gaming world. But it's not like that, and the ambiguity of this and all the other situations in DAO is what gives the game life.

Agreed. I think my problem with Loghain is that I don't care for him. At all. I'm simply very, very much apathic toward Loghain, nothing more, nothing less. But I can see why one might want to spare him. I can easily acknowledge that he is more than the standard villian and well written with his own demons and such. Still I have yet to find a Warden who spares him, instead to send his head flying. Maybe I simply care too much for Alistair, so there is that. *shrug*

Perfectly fine, Meri. I have no issues with that. I may spare him in in 98% of my games but I can see that there are reasons not to. They simply do not convince me. And doing it to keep Alistair isn't very high on that list, much as I adore the dear boy.

It is high on mine, however.  Yeah, I confess: I'm a sap. I'm a complete and utter sap when it comes to Alistair. But hey there are worse fates than that...

Yet, we wouldn't still discuss Loghain after nearly two years, if he were simply a poorly written muahahahar mustache twirling- villain. Just saying.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Taken from the link that the argumentative Persephone profided.
David Gaider: Yes. They don't know for sure if she's infertile, but she wasn't having a[ny] childs.
SO, then the King was right to scout a round for another wife and set her aside......OR am I missing something?

Was he? Even Henry VIII waited till his wife was well into her forties until he ditched her to marry Anne Boleyn.

So would you justify Henry VIII's rotten treatment of Katharine Of Aragon too?

I may be from the UK, but believe it or not, I know next to nothing about Henry the VIII. So no comment for now.

[Persephone]

Merilsell wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Merilsell wrote...

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...
This, exactly. The Landsmeet decision remains one of the most polarizing and hotly-contested aspects of the game, long after the other arguments have gone stale. If Loghain was truly just a standard black-hat evil character or "sociopath" (people keep using that word. I do not think it means what they think it means), there would be no discussion, merely the sound of heads falling into baskets all over the gaming world. But it's not like that, and the ambiguity of this and all the other situations in DAO is what gives the game life.

Agreed. I think my problem with Loghain is that I don't care for him. At all. I'm simply very, very much apathic toward Loghain, nothing more, nothing less. But I can see why one might want to spare him. I can easily acknowledge that he is more than the standard villian and well written with his own demons and such. Still I have yet to find a Warden who spares him, instead to send his head flying. Maybe I simply care too much for Alistair, so there is that. *shrug*

Perfectly fine, Meri. I have no issues with that. I may spare him in in 98% of my games but I can see that there are reasons not to. They simply do not convince me. And doing it to keep Alistair isn't very high on that list, much as I adore the dear boy.

It is high on mine, however.  Yeah, I confess: I'm a sap. I'm a complete and utter sap when it comes to Alistair. But hey there are worse fates than that...

Yet, we wouldn't still discuss Loghain after nearly two years, if he were simply a poorly written muahahahar mustache twirling- villain. Just saying.

Definitely worse fates than that, Meri. And I'm sure you'll write it well in your story.

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Taken from the link that the argumentative Persephone profided.
David Gaider: Yes. They don't know for sure if she's infertile, but she wasn't having a[ny] childs.
SO, then the King was right to scout a round for another wife and set her aside......OR am I missing something?

Was he? Even Henry VIII waited till his wife was well into her forties until he ditched her to marry Anne Boleyn.

So would you justify Henry VIII's rotten treatment of Katharine Of Aragon too?

I may be from the UK, but believe it or not, I know next to nothing about Henry the VIII. So no comment for now.

Oh my, we are neighbours! I moved to Ireland three months ago! :D

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

I don't ignore the fact that Cailan ran after glory, I admit he did. HOWEVER, we only see him on screen for what....60 seconds? if that?.....How does one get to know someone else in that amount of time

Lol who's putting words in your mouth? Not me, since you seem to have enough words in your mouth for the whole website.
When you say "Yes he would have" do you mean, "yes Loghain would have left the King to die, had Cailan been his"? Cos if so then.......WOW! Here you are telling us the man is not a sociopath, and yet in the next breath you say he would do that? Make your mind up would you

The War Council Scene and his whining about there being no Arch Demon sightings are enough for me to want to smack him silly. Or throttle him. "No archdemon waaaaaaah." "Strategies are sooooooo boring..." nonsense....gah, to have such a fool in charge of an army, a whole nation....terrible.

Such a decision, such a sacrifice would not make him a sociopath either. Parents who are unable to save their children from the doom they inflicted upon themselves sadly aren't a rarity. Choosing the greater good over personal feelings, no matter how strong, is a tragic and harrowing trait.

I notice you refrained from answering my question....Is it mayhap because you have no answer?

I answered it quite clearly. Maybe not what you wanted to hear though.:happy:

It may be that my brain is addled with old age, BUT no you didn't answer it clearly.
So please answer again. Would Loghain the 'Non-sociopath' leave the King to die had Cailan been his son and not Maric's?......Yay or nay?

[tklivory]

What's wrong with mustache twirling?

Oh, *that* kind of mustache twirling. Carry on...

*retreats back to the boudoir*

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Taken from the link that the argumentative Persephone profided.
David Gaider: Yes. They don't know for sure if she's infertile, but she wasn't having a[ny] childs.
SO, then the King was right to scout a round for another wife and set her aside......OR am I missing something?

Was he? Even Henry VIII waited till his wife was well into her forties until he ditched her to marry Anne Boleyn.

So would you justify Henry VIII's rotten treatment of Katharine Of Aragon too?

I may be from the UK, but believe it or not, I know next to nothing about Henry the VIII. So no comment for now.

Oh my, we are neighbours! I moved to Ireland three months ago! :D

Lol we are hardly neighbors since I live in west yorkshire.....but YAY lets have a get together. I vote for bringing the carrot cake

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 29 novembre 2011 - 11:02 .

[Klidi]

Persephone wrote...


The RTO documents are written proof. And David Gaider confirmed that Cailan planned to ditch his wife to marry the Orlesian Empress. Selling out his country, pissing on his father's legacy and sacrifices AND betraying a loyal, competent wife in one stroke.

Lol so when Loghain cooperates with Howe, it's needed and practical alliance, but this:

Cailan,
]The visit to Ferelden will be postponed indefinitely, due to the darkspawn problem. You understand, of course?
The darkspawn have odd timing, don't they? Let us deal with them first. Once that is done we can further discuss a permanent alliance between Orlais and Ferelden.


is a proof that Cailan betrayed Ferelden?

Also, about the link you posted - it says Cailan wanted to divorce Anora, who they suspected was fertile, to avoid the civil war in Ferelden.

So, when Cailan tries to prevent the civil war, he's a traitor. When Laughan causes it, he's in fact doing it for the good of the country? Interesting logic, that.

But also, please note that it was the whole romance thing was deleted from the game, making it little more than Mr. Gaider's headcanon. I also find interesting, Gaider does not mention Celene at all. He only says that Celene was supposed to visit Denerim (which was scrapped completely, as you can see in the letter above) and that Cailan wanted to divorce Anora  (which is hinted in Eamon's letter). To see a proof of romance in a letter above - that is called overinterpretation, or finding things in the text which are not dare based on the wishful thinking of the reader.