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[ShimmeringDjinn]

Klidi wrote...

Persephone wrote...


The RTO documents are written proof. And David Gaider confirmed that Cailan planned to ditch his wife to marry the Orlesian Empress. Selling out his country, pissing on his father's legacy and sacrifices AND betraying a loyal, competent wife in one stroke.

Lol so when Loghain cooperates with Howe, it's needed and practical alliance, but this:

Cailan,
]The visit to Ferelden will be postponed indefinitely, due to the darkspawn problem. You understand, of course?
The darkspawn have odd timing, don't they? Let us deal with them first. Once that is done we can further discuss a permanent alliance between Orlais and Ferelden.


is a proof that Cailan betrayed Ferelden?

Also, about the link you posted - it says Cailan wanted to divorce Anora, who they suspected was fertile, to avoid the civil war in Ferelden.

So, when Cailan tries to prevent the civil war, he's a traitor. When Laughan causes it, he's in fact doing it for the good of the country? Interesting logic, that.

But also, please note that it was the whole romance thing was deleted from the game, making it little more than Mr. Gaider's headcanon. I also find interesting, Gaider does not mention Celene at all. He only says that Celene was supposed to visit Denerim (which was scrapped completely, as you can see in the letter above) and that Cailan wanted to divorce Anora  (which is hinted in Eamon's letter). To see a proof of romance in a letter above - that is called overinterpretation, or finding things in the text which are not dare based on the wishful thinking of the reader.

THIS. Have a cookie Klidi

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

I don't ignore the fact that Cailan ran after glory, I admit he did. HOWEVER, we only see him on screen for what....60 seconds? if that?.....How does one get to know someone else in that amount of time

Lol who's putting words in your mouth? Not me, since you seem to have enough words in your mouth for the whole website.
When you say "Yes he would have" do you mean, "yes Loghain would have left the King to die, had Cailan been his"? Cos if so then.......WOW! Here you are telling us the man is not a sociopath, and yet in the next breath you say he would do that? Make your mind up would you

The War Council Scene and his whining about there being no Arch Demon sightings are enough for me to want to smack him silly. Or throttle him. "No archdemon waaaaaaah." "Strategies are sooooooo boring..." nonsense....gah, to have such a fool in charge of an army, a whole nation....terrible.

Such a decision, such a sacrifice would not make him a sociopath either. Parents who are unable to save their children from the doom they inflicted upon themselves sadly aren't a rarity. Choosing the greater good over personal feelings, no matter how strong, is a tragic and harrowing trait.

I notice you refrained from answering my question....Is it mayhap because you have no answer?

I answered it quite clearly. Maybe not what you wanted to hear though.:happy:

It may be that my brain is addled with old age, BUT no you didn't answer it clearly.
So please answer again. Would Loghain the 'Non-sociopath' leave the King to die had Cailan been his son and not Maric's?......Yay or nay?

I cannot answer that for certain, it would depend on the circumstances. Given his unwillingness to kill Anora (You can ask him this and if you have the fix installed that opens his friendly dialogue, he'll explain), I believe he would not do so without distress. He even mentions that had it been Anora in Cailan's stead, he would have been in no better position to save her.

The retreat at Ostagar, this I firmly believe, did not happen to kill but to save lives. And that it did. It was because of such an outcome being feasible (And Cailan knew that victory was highly unlikely, RTO confirms this) that Loghain warned Cailan against risking his life in such a reckless, foolish manner. Cailan refused to listen and paid the price. He was responsible for his own fate a great deal, I am sorry.

[Klidi]

Persephone wrote...
Being conscripted is hardly going unpunished.

That's just a matter of view. Alistair clearly doesn't think so. My Warden agrees on that.

Persephone wrote...
And you can see it in all his scenes with Howe.

No, I can't.

Persephone wrote... 
He doesn't say it but given his experiences with the Wardens in The Calling, it is a sensible conclusion.

Not for me. He knows that it was not the Wardens who let the Cailan die. He knows it was him. Or are you saying he's so deluded he doesn't know it was him who gave the order to retreat?

Modifié par Klidi, 29 novembre 2011 - 11:09 .

[Persephone]

Klidi wrote...

Persephone wrote...


The RTO documents are written proof. And David Gaider confirmed that Cailan planned to ditch his wife to marry the Orlesian Empress. Selling out his country, pissing on his father's legacy and sacrifices AND betraying a loyal, competent wife in one stroke.

Lol so when Loghain cooperates with Howe, it's needed and practical alliance, but this:

Cailan,
]The visit to Ferelden will be postponed indefinitely, due to the darkspawn problem. You understand, of course?
The darkspawn have odd timing, don't they? Let us deal with them first. Once that is done we can further discuss a permanent alliance between Orlais and Ferelden.


is a proof that Cailan betrayed Ferelden?

Also, about the link you posted - it says Cailan wanted to divorce Anora, who they suspected was fertile, to avoid the civil war in Ferelden.

So, when Cailan tries to prevent the civil war, he's a traitor. When Laughan causes it, he's in fact doing it for the good of the country? Interesting logic, that.

Yes. If you know anything of diplomacy or politics, it's quite clear.

And again, divorce a wife not yet thirty for not having popped babies yet? Disgusting.

And it's the Bannorn that started the civil war, not Loghain. (Loghain's heavy handed politics did not help, but his intent was to stop a war...a war that would have erupted over an alliance with the empire that had them enslaved for a century. It's like Gaul making an "alliance" with Rome, utter nonsense.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

I don't ignore the fact that Cailan ran after glory, I admit he did. HOWEVER, we only see him on screen for what....60 seconds? if that?.....How does one get to know someone else in that amount of time

Lol who's putting words in your mouth? Not me, since you seem to have enough words in your mouth for the whole website.
When you say "Yes he would have" do you mean, "yes Loghain would have left the King to die, had Cailan been his"? Cos if so then.......WOW! Here you are telling us the man is not a sociopath, and yet in the next breath you say he would do that? Make your mind up would you

The War Council Scene and his whining about there being no Arch Demon sightings are enough for me to want to smack him silly. Or throttle him. "No archdemon waaaaaaah." "Strategies are sooooooo boring..." nonsense....gah, to have such a fool in charge of an army, a whole nation....terrible.

Such a decision, such a sacrifice would not make him a sociopath either. Parents who are unable to save their children from the doom they inflicted upon themselves sadly aren't a rarity. Choosing the greater good over personal feelings, no matter how strong, is a tragic and harrowing trait.

I notice you refrained from answering my question....Is it mayhap because you have no answer?

I answered it quite clearly. Maybe not what you wanted to hear though.:happy:

It may be that my brain is addled with old age, BUT no you didn't answer it clearly.
So please answer again. Would Loghain the 'Non-sociopath' leave the King to die had Cailan been his son and not Maric's?......Yay or nay?

I cannot answer that for certain, it would depend on the circumstances. Given his unwillingness to kill Anora (You can ask him this and if you have the fix installed that opens his friendly dialogue, he'll explain), I believe he would not do so without distress.

And yet YOU stated in another thread (The WOW. Anora is power hungry thread I believe) a while ago that Maric would have been happy to see his son die rather than lose the army, given what happened at west hill.

[Persephone]

Klidi wrote...

Not for me. He knows that it was not the Wardens who let the Cailan die. He knows it was him. Or are you saying he's so deluded he doesn't know it was him who gave the order to retreat?

No. The clearly DELAYED signal might be a giveaway though. The Wardens ALLIED themselves to the darkspawn themselves in The Calling after all. (!!!!!!!) And again, Cailan is responsible for his own demise and that of many others. Never mind Duncan's secrecy condemning the king to die as well IF the archdemon had shown up that time. How incompetent is that anyway?

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

Klidi wrote...

Persephone wrote...


The RTO documents are written proof. And David Gaider confirmed that Cailan planned to ditch his wife to marry the Orlesian Empress. Selling out his country, pissing on his father's legacy and sacrifices AND betraying a loyal, competent wife in one stroke.

Lol so when Loghain cooperates with Howe, it's needed and practical alliance, but this:

Cailan,
]The visit to Ferelden will be postponed indefinitely, due to the darkspawn problem. You understand, of course?
The darkspawn have odd timing, don't they? Let us deal with them first. Once that is done we can further discuss a permanent alliance between Orlais and Ferelden.


is a proof that Cailan betrayed Ferelden?

Also, about the link you posted - it says Cailan wanted to divorce Anora, who they suspected was fertile, to avoid the civil war in Ferelden.

So, when Cailan tries to prevent the civil war, he's a traitor. When Laughan causes it, he's in fact doing it for the good of the country? Interesting logic, that.

Yes. If you know anything of diplomacy or politics, it's quite clear.

And again, divorce a wife not yet thirty for not having popped babies yet? Disgusting.

And it's the Bannorn that started the civil war, not Loghain. (Loghain's heavy handed politics did not help, but his intent was to stop a war...a war that would have erupted over an alliance with the empire that had them enslaved for a century. It's like Gaul making an "alliance" with Rome, utter nonsense.

No not digusting....LIFE!.....In medieval times if a woman didn't have 10 kids (I'm exaggerating a little) by the age of 30, there was something wrong. Even in the 1950's it was rare for a family to have less than five children because most children didn't live past the age of five.

[Merilsell]

Persephone wrote...

Merilsell wrote...
It is high on mine, however.  Yeah, I confess: I'm a sap. I'm a complete and utter sap when it comes to Alistair. But hey there are worse fates than that...

Yet, we wouldn't still discuss Loghain after nearly two years, if he were simply a poorly written muahahahar mustache twirling- villain. Just saying.

Definitely worse fates than that, Meri. And I'm sure you'll write it well in your story.

Aww thanks. But I'm actually really, really scared to write the Landsmeet and I'm glad that I still have time to figure out how I will do that. Because the LM is such a clusterf*** of plot-holes and inconsistencies it is not funny anymore. The whole endgame is too, for that matter. Here it shows that BW has hurled the game out all too quickly without polishing the After-LM part. Ah well I guess I'll see it as a (writing) challenge. That or banging my head against the wall once I'll have reached that part in my story. Repeately. I think I rather take option one. Maybe. Possibly.

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

And yet YOU stated in another thread (The WOW. Anora is power hungry thread I believe) a while ago that Maric would have been happy to see his son die rather than lose the army, given what happened at west hill.

I NEVER said he would be HAPPY. He would understand why the retreat had to happen however, because of West Hill and him ordering Loghain to never again put one many over Ferelden again, be it the king or a commoner.

Modifié par Persephone, 29 novembre 2011 - 11:14 .

[ShimmeringDjinn]

[quote]Persephone wrote...

[quote]ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

I cannot answer that for certain, it would depend on the circumstances. Given his unwillingness to kill Anora (You can ask him this and if you have the fix installed that opens his friendly dialogue, he'll explain), I believe he would not do so without distress.

[/quote]
And yet YOU stated in another thread (The WOW. Anora is power hungry thread I believe) a while ago that Maric would have been happy to see his son die rather than lose the army, given what happened at west hill.

[/quote]

I NEVER said he would be HAPPY. He would understand why the retreat had to happen however, because of West Hill and him ordering Loghain to never again put one many over Ferelden again, be it the king or a commoner.

[/quote]
Spliting hairs if you ask me.

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Klidi wrote...

Persephone wrote...


The RTO documents are written proof. And David Gaider confirmed that Cailan planned to ditch his wife to marry the Orlesian Empress. Selling out his country, pissing on his father's legacy and sacrifices AND betraying a loyal, competent wife in one stroke.

Lol so when Loghain cooperates with Howe, it's needed and practical alliance, but this:

Cailan,
]The visit to Ferelden will be postponed indefinitely, due to the darkspawn problem. You understand, of course?
The darkspawn have odd timing, don't they? Let us deal with them first. Once that is done we can further discuss a permanent alliance between Orlais and Ferelden.


is a proof that Cailan betrayed Ferelden?

Also, about the link you posted - it says Cailan wanted to divorce Anora, who they suspected was fertile, to avoid the civil war in Ferelden.

So, when Cailan tries to prevent the civil war, he's a traitor. When Laughan causes it, he's in fact doing it for the good of the country? Interesting logic, that.

Yes. If you know anything of diplomacy or politics, it's quite clear.

And again, divorce a wife not yet thirty for not having popped babies yet? Disgusting.

And it's the Bannorn that started the civil war, not Loghain. (Loghain's heavy handed politics did not help, but his intent was to stop a war...a war that would have erupted over an alliance with the empire that had them enslaved for a century. It's like Gaul making an "alliance" with Rome, utter nonsense.

No not digusting....LIFE!.....In medieval times if a woman didn't have 10 kids (I'm exaggerating a little) by the age of 30, there was something wrong.

Again, Henry VIII sought his annullment when Katharine Of Aragon was in her forties, not her late twenties. So no, even that LECHER had more decency there than Cailan OR Eamon.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

What the hell is wrong with 'Quote' today?

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote..

I NEVER said he would be HAPPY. He would understand why the retreat had to happen however, because of West Hill and him ordering Loghain to never again put one many over Ferelden again, be it the king or a commoner.

Spliting hairs if you ask me.

Really not. Because it's not the same at all.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Merilsell wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Definitely worse fates than that, Meri. And I'm sure you'll write it well in your story.

Aww thanks. But I'm actually really, really scared to write the Landsmeet and I'm glad that I still have time to figure out how I will do that. Because the LM is such a clusterf*** of plot-holes and inconsistencies it is not funny anymore. The whole endgame is too, for that matter. Here it shows that BW has hurled the game out all too quickly without polishing the After-LM part. Ah well I guess I'll see it as a (writing) challenge. That or banging my head against the wall once I'll have reached that part in my story. Repeately. I think I rather take option one. Maybe. Possibly.

AU FTW! Go, grumpy Elf and puppy! (and their Mabari, too!)

I just started my fic at the duel, conscripted the ex-Teyrn and got the eff out of Dodge.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Klidi wrote...

Persephone wrote...


The RTO documents are written proof. And David Gaider confirmed that Cailan planned to ditch his wife to marry the Orlesian Empress. Selling out his country, pissing on his father's legacy and sacrifices AND betraying a loyal, competent wife in one stroke.

Lol so when Loghain cooperates with Howe, it's needed and practical alliance, but this:

Cailan,
]The visit to Ferelden will be postponed indefinitely, due to the darkspawn problem. You understand, of course?
The darkspawn have odd timing, don't they? Let us deal with them first. Once that is done we can further discuss a permanent alliance between Orlais and Ferelden.


is a proof that Cailan betrayed Ferelden?

Also, about the link you posted - it says Cailan wanted to divorce Anora, who they suspected was fertile, to avoid the civil war in Ferelden.

So, when Cailan tries to prevent the civil war, he's a traitor. When Laughan causes it, he's in fact doing it for the good of the country? Interesting logic, that.

Yes. If you know anything of diplomacy or politics, it's quite clear.

And again, divorce a wife not yet thirty for not having popped babies yet? Disgusting.

And it's the Bannorn that started the civil war, not Loghain. (Loghain's heavy handed politics did not help, but his intent was to stop a war...a war that would have erupted over an alliance with the empire that had them enslaved for a century. It's like Gaul making an "alliance" with Rome, utter nonsense.

No not digusting....LIFE!.....In medieval times if a woman didn't have 10 kids (I'm exaggerating a little) by the age of 30, there was something wrong.

Again, Henry VIII sought his annullment when Katharine Of Aragon was in her forties, not her late twenties. So no, even that LECHER had more decency there than Cailan OR Eamon.

If you say so. Like I said, I know nothing of the man, As for Eamon.......I have no opinion.

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

What the hell is wrong with 'Quote' today?

It doesn't like Loghain either. :lol: (I kid, I kid!)

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote..

I NEVER said he would be HAPPY. He would understand why the retreat had to happen however, because of West Hill and him ordering Loghain to never again put one many over Ferelden again, be it the king or a commoner.

Spliting hairs if you ask me.

Really not. Because it's not the same at all.

You say that now.....But you were more than willing to have us all believe the lovely Maric would kill his own son.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

What the hell is wrong with 'Quote' today?

It doesn't like Loghain either. :lol: (I kid, I kid!)

Lol.

[Klidi]

Persephone wrote...

Klidi wrote...

Persephone wrote...


The RTO documents are written proof. And David Gaider confirmed that Cailan planned to ditch his wife to marry the Orlesian Empress. Selling out his country, pissing on his father's legacy and sacrifices AND betraying a loyal, competent wife in one stroke.

Lol so when Loghain cooperates with Howe, it's needed and practical alliance, but this:

Cailan,
]The visit to Ferelden will be postponed indefinitely, due to the darkspawn problem. You understand, of course?
The darkspawn have odd timing, don't they? Let us deal with them first. Once that is done we can further discuss a permanent alliance between Orlais and Ferelden.


is a proof that Cailan betrayed Ferelden?

Also, about the link you posted - it says Cailan wanted to divorce Anora, who they suspected was fertile, to avoid the civil war in Ferelden.

So, when Cailan tries to prevent the civil war, he's a traitor. When Laughan causes it, he's in fact doing it for the good of the country? Interesting logic, that.

Yes. If you know anything of diplomacy or politics, it's quite clear.

And again, divorce a wife not yet thirty for not having popped babies yet? Disgusting.

And it's the Bannorn that started the civil war, not Loghain. (Loghain's heavy handed politics did not help, but his intent was to stop a war...a war that would have erupted over an alliance with the empire that had them enslaved for a century. It's like Gaul making an "alliance" with Rome, utter nonsense.

Yes, I know a little of diplomacy and politics. And this proves to me that Cailan was much more competent politician than Loghain. He realised that Fereldan cannot survive in isolation and needs alliance with Orlais so it could further grow.

And, no, it is Loghain who started the civil war the moment when he claimed himself a regent on the Landsmeet, and threatened those who would refuse to submit.

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote..

I NEVER said he would be HAPPY. He would understand why the retreat had to happen however, because of West Hill and him ordering Loghain to never again put one many over Ferelden again, be it the king or a commoner.

Spliting hairs if you ask me.

Really not. Because it's not the same at all.

You say that now.....But you were more than willing to have us all believe the lovely Maric would kill his own son.

We are talking about a man who killed the woman he loved. Who was weeping and pleading. (And don't say Loghain not revealing her change of heart was the deciding factor. It was not.) right in front of him. Not so lovely, that. If necessity demanded it, Maric could be ruthless, brutal and cruel. Much as he might despise himself for it, he still was capable of ruthless decisions and made them, when necessity demanded it.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Klidi wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Klidi wrote...

Persephone wrote...


The RTO documents are written proof. And David Gaider confirmed that Cailan planned to ditch his wife to marry the Orlesian Empress. Selling out his country, pissing on his father's legacy and sacrifices AND betraying a loyal, competent wife in one stroke.

Lol so when Loghain cooperates with Howe, it's needed and practical alliance, but this:

Cailan,
]The visit to Ferelden will be postponed indefinitely, due to the darkspawn problem. You understand, of course?
The darkspawn have odd timing, don't they? Let us deal with them first. Once that is done we can further discuss a permanent alliance between Orlais and Ferelden.


is a proof that Cailan betrayed Ferelden?

Also, about the link you posted - it says Cailan wanted to divorce Anora, who they suspected was fertile, to avoid the civil war in Ferelden.

So, when Cailan tries to prevent the civil war, he's a traitor. When Laughan causes it, he's in fact doing it for the good of the country? Interesting logic, that.

Yes. If you know anything of diplomacy or politics, it's quite clear.

And again, divorce a wife not yet thirty for not having popped babies yet? Disgusting.

And it's the Bannorn that started the civil war, not Loghain. (Loghain's heavy handed politics did not help, but his intent was to stop a war...a war that would have erupted over an alliance with the empire that had them enslaved for a century. It's like Gaul making an "alliance" with Rome, utter nonsense.

Yes, I know a little of diplomacy and politics. And this proves to me that Cailan was much more competent politician than Loghain. He realised that Fereldan cannot survive in isolation and needs alliance with Orlais so it could further grow.

And, no, it is Loghain who started the civil war the moment when he claimed himself a regent on the Landsmeet, and threatened those who would refuse to submit.

And yet again I agree with Klidi

[tklivory]

I thought Anora appointed him regent? (not questioning the threaten, but technically that was Anora)

[Persephone]

Klidi wrote...

Yes, I know a little of diplomacy and politics. And this proves to me that Cailan was much more competent politician than Loghain. He realised that Fereldan cannot survive in isolation and needs alliance with Orlais so it could further grow.

And, no, it is Loghain who started the civil war the moment when he claimed himself a regent on the Landsmeet, and threatened those who would refuse to submit.

Selling out your kingdom to an empire is not competent, it's suicidal and incompetent.

He took the regency, yes. Bad idea, yes. But that did not start this war. This war has been brewing within the Bannorn for years. And they chose a rather ill fitting moment to declare war.

[Klidi]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

And yet YOU stated in another thread (The WOW. Anora is power hungry thread I believe) a while ago that Maric would have been happy to see his son die rather than lose the army, given what happened at west hill.

I NEVER said he would be HAPPY. He would understand why the retreat had to happen however, because of West Hill and him ordering Loghain to never again put one many over Ferelden again, be it the king or a commoner.

Maric was angry with Loghain because he went to rescue Cailan and let the soldiers die. He made him promise he would never do that again, never put one man above many.

And how Loghain fulfils that promise? He lets the soldiers die, because he wants to get rid of one man - the son of the man to whom he made the promise, Maric's son.

So while reason is different - this time he doesn't want to save that one man but to destroy him - the result is the same: he puts the life of one man over lives of many.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote..

I NEVER said he would be HAPPY. He would understand why the retreat had to happen however, because of West Hill and him ordering Loghain to never again put one many over Ferelden again, be it the king or a commoner.

Spliting hairs if you ask me.

Really not. Because it's not the same at all.

You say that now.....But you were more than willing to have us all believe the lovely Maric would kill his own son.

We are talking about a man who killed the woman he loved.

Need I remind you he did it because Loghain LIED TO HIM? As in with held vital information from him?........Had Maric known the truth he would never have killed her, BUT Loghain made sure he DIDN'T know the truth until after his sword slid through her chest.
Even Rowan was disgusted with Loghain for not telling Maric the truth.

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 29 novembre 2011 - 11:28 .