tklivory wrote...
I thought Anora appointed him regent? (not questioning the threaten, but technically that was Anora)
Klidi wrote...
Persephone wrote...
ShimmeringDjinn wrote...
And yet YOU stated in another thread (The WOW. Anora is power hungry thread I believe) a while ago that Maric would have been happy to see his son die rather than lose the army, given what happened at west hill.
I NEVER said he would be HAPPY. He would understand why the retreat had to happen however, because of West Hill and him ordering Loghain to never again put one many over Ferelden again, be it the king or a commoner.
Maric was angry with Loghain because he went to rescue Cailan and let the soldiers die. He made him promise he would never do that again, never put one man above many.
And how Loghain fulfils that promise? He lets the soldiers die, because he wants to get rid of one man - the son of the man to whom he made the promise, Maric's son.
So while reason is different - this time he doesn't want to save that one man but to destroy him - the result is the same: he puts the life of one man over lives of many.
tklivory wrote...
Bee tee em, where's a chat room when you want one?
Especially with quote borked.
For some historical comparisons, I would compare Loghain to Thomas Becket. Can't pull up the wiki (darn phone) but I would recommend looking into the relationship that man had with his King. There are some interesting similarities (not all true, but some hold up).
tklivory wrote...
I thought Anora appointed him regent? (not questioning the threaten, but technically that was Anora)
Actually, if one wanted to kill another, surly they would try to convince them NOT to fight on the frontlines?.....Since it is then less obvious that the killer wants them dead.Persephone wrote...
Klidi wrote...
Persephone wrote...
ShimmeringDjinn wrote...
And yet YOU stated in another thread (The WOW. Anora is power hungry thread I believe) a while ago that Maric would have been happy to see his son die rather than lose the army, given what happened at west hill.
I NEVER said he would be HAPPY. He would understand why the retreat had to happen however, because of West Hill and him ordering Loghain to never again put one many over Ferelden again, be it the king or a commoner.
Maric was angry with Loghain because he went to rescue Cailan and let the soldiers die. He made him promise he would never do that again, never put one man above many.
And how Loghain fulfils that promise? He lets the soldiers die, because he wants to get rid of one man - the son of the man to whom he made the promise, Maric's son.
So while reason is different - this time he doesn't want to save that one man but to destroy him - the result is the same: he puts the life of one man over lives of many.
Except that HAD he wanted to get rid of Cailan, he would have urged him on to fight on the front lines. He did not. So the whole "He wanted to kill Cailan idea!" falls apart right there.
ShimmeringDjinn wrote...
Need I remind you he did it because Loghain LIED TO HIM? As in with held vital information from him?........Had Maric known the truth he would never have killed her, BUT Loghain made sure he DIDN'T know the truth until after his sword slid through her chest.
Even Rowan was disgusted with Loghain for not telling Maric the truth.
See now......I don't think she did at all. I think he stole her power.tklivory wrote...
I thought Anora appointed him regent?
Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 29 novembre 2011 - 11:36 .
ShimmeringDjinn wrote...
Actually, if one wanted to kill another, surly they would try to convince them NOT to fight on the frontlines?.....Since it is then less obvious that the killer wants them dead.
Rowan was not in the room at the time Maric ran Katriel through, for she trusted Loghain to tell Maric the truth.....Which he didn't.Persephone wrote...
ShimmeringDjinn wrote...
Need I remind you he did it because Loghain LIED TO HIM? As in with held vital information from him?........Had Maric known the truth he would never have killed her, BUT Loghain made sure he DIDN'T know the truth until after his sword slid through her chest.
Even Rowan was disgusted with Loghain for not telling Maric the truth.
Yet Rowan also knew that this had to happen. How would Maric have been able to continue as a believeable king with Katriel involved? (After West Hill, her espionage etc?) At best she would have been condemned for West Hill and killed. At worst, she would have ruined the entire rebellion by being a constant reminder of what her original mission had been.
Oh I agree. Cailan grew up listening to storys about great battles that his father fought, so of course he wasn't going to be dissuaded from joining in.tklivory wrote...
@ Djinn - sadly, I don't think Loghain could have dissuaded Cailan (wheterh or not he wanted to). As misplaced as Loghain's anger towards the Wardens was, even Duncan acknowledged that it was Cailan's zealous belief in the Wardens that ensured that he would be in the most dangerous location during the battle. Also, remember that even at the start of the Battle, Cailan showed a continued lack of awareness of what a Blight even was.
Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 29 novembre 2011 - 11:43 .
Klidi wrote...
Proof, please? That he meant to 'sell out his kingdom'. Because I see 'alliance' there. I don't see any details what in fact they wanted to do or how.
Please don't present your personal overinterpretation of the word 'alliance' as the fact.
And what Loghain did made the situation much worse - he killed the king, he poisoned the possible heir to the throne and then declared himself regent and threatened those who would oppose him. In other words, if it was 'ill fitting moment' for a war, it was mainly because of his actions. He practically didn't give Banns any other chance than a civil war.
Morwen Eledhwen wrote...
Merilsell wrote...
Persephone wrote...
Definitely worse fates than that, Meri. And I'm sure you'll write it well in your story.
Aww thanks. But I'm actually really, really scared to write the Landsmeet and I'm glad that I still have time to figure out how I will do that. Because the LM is such a clusterf*** of plot-holes and inconsistencies it is not funny anymore. The whole endgame is too, for that matter. Here it shows that BW has hurled the game out all too quickly without polishing the After-LM part. Ah well I guess I'll see it as a (writing) challenge. That or banging my head against the wall once I'll have reached that part in my story. Repeately. I think I rather take option one. Maybe. Possibly.
AU FTW!Go, grumpy Elf and puppy! (and their Mabari, too!)
I just started my fic at the duel, conscripted the ex-Teyrn and got the eff out of Dodge.
And I envy you that you are already out of there. I really do. Ah well, I still have a looong way to go until the LM, fortunately. Will I ever finish this thing ( story)? I truly doubt it...but hey at least it's fun 
Persephone wrote...
Klidi wrote...
Not for me. He knows that it was not the Wardens who let the Cailan die. He knows it was him. Or are you saying he's so deluded he doesn't know it was him who gave the order to retreat?
No. The clearly DELAYED signal might be a giveaway though. The Wardens ALLIED themselves to the darkspawn themselves in The Calling after all. (!!!!!!!) And again, Cailan is responsible for his own demise and that of many others. Never mind Duncan's secrecy condemning the king to die as well IF the archdemon had shown up that time. How incompetent is that anyway?
Me thinks Persephone is making assumptions again *Shakes head*Klidi wrote...
Persephone wrote...
Klidi wrote...
Not for me. He knows that it was not the Wardens who let the Cailan die. He knows it was him. Or are you saying he's so deluded he doesn't know it was him who gave the order to retreat?
No. The clearly DELAYED signal might be a giveaway though. The Wardens ALLIED themselves to the darkspawn themselves in The Calling after all. (!!!!!!!) And again, Cailan is responsible for his own demise and that of many others. Never mind Duncan's secrecy condemning the king to die as well IF the archdemon had shown up that time. How incompetent is that anyway?
Clearly DELAYED? Says who? How do you know, from the game, that they were delayed? What makes it 'clear', exactly?
Also, if they were delayed, it was because there were darkspawn in the Tower. Comming from the tunnels. Tunnels about which Loghain's men knew.
To use the signal in the Tower was part of Loghain's strategy.
Loghain did not mention possible danger on the meeting before battle.
In other words, the whole 'light the beacon' mission was a trap.
The Warden even comments it. In the Tower, Alistair asks how did the darkspawn get into the tower. The Warden suggests, 'unless they knew about the plan'. Alistair is shocked by such horrible idea.
Again - the Tower was guarded by Loghain's men. Not by the Wardens.
And please, don't give me now some link about what Gaider said. You said it was clearly delayed, which suggests it's clear from the game itself, without metagaming and asking one of the writers of the game for his headcanon. You also suggested that it was delayed because the Wardens allied themselves with the darkspawn. I want to see some ingame proof for that.
If you can't provide it, then please stop presenting your way of role-playing the game as the facts.
Klidi wrote...
Persephone wrote...
Klidi wrote...
Not for me. He knows that it was not the Wardens who let the Cailan die. He knows it was him. Or are you saying he's so deluded he doesn't know it was him who gave the order to retreat?
No. The clearly DELAYED signal might be a giveaway though. The Wardens ALLIED themselves to the darkspawn themselves in The Calling after all. (!!!!!!!) And again, Cailan is responsible for his own demise and that of many others. Never mind Duncan's secrecy condemning the king to die as well IF the archdemon had shown up that time. How incompetent is that anyway?
Clearly DELAYED? Says who?
Loghain did not mention possible danger on the meeting before battle.
In other words, the whole 'light the beacon' mission was a trap.
That is hardly a deffinite now is it.Persephone wrote...
Klidi wrote...
Persephone wrote...
Klidi wrote...
Not for me. He knows that it was not the Wardens who let the Cailan die. He knows it was him. Or are you saying he's so deluded he doesn't know it was him who gave the order to retreat?
No. The clearly DELAYED signal might be a giveaway though. The Wardens ALLIED themselves to the darkspawn themselves in The Calling after all. (!!!!!!!) And again, Cailan is responsible for his own demise and that of many others. Never mind Duncan's secrecy condemning the king to die as well IF the archdemon had shown up that time. How incompetent is that anyway?
Clearly DELAYED? Says who?
Loghain did not mention possible danger on the meeting before battle.
In other words, the whole 'light the beacon' mission was a trap.
Says Alistair after the ogre dies, in fact. "We've surely missed the signal."
No, it was not. Much as you may hate this but...David Gaider confirmed that it was not.
Persephone wrote...
Proof: Actual history. Ireland and England. Scotland and England. England and France. (Such "alliances" never ended well) No overinterpretation, Klidi, just common sense.
Persephone wrote...
Any other chance? Puleeeeeeeeeeeaze. Those people were willing to fight over trees. Neither side is free of blame in that regard.
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