180 réponses à ce sujet

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Klidi wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Klidi wrote...

Not for me. He knows that it was not the Wardens who let the Cailan die. He knows it was him. Or are you saying he's so deluded he doesn't know it was him who gave the order to retreat?

No. The clearly DELAYED signal might be a giveaway though. The Wardens ALLIED themselves to the darkspawn themselves in The Calling after all. (!!!!!!!) And again, Cailan is responsible for his own demise and that of many others. Never mind Duncan's secrecy condemning the king to die as well IF the archdemon had shown up that time. How incompetent is that anyway?

Clearly DELAYED? Says who?
Loghain did not mention possible danger on the meeting before battle.

In other words, the whole 'light the beacon' mission was a trap.

Says Alistair after the ogre dies, in fact. "We've surely missed the signal."

No, it was not. Much as you may hate this but...David Gaider confirmed that it was not.

That is hardly a deffinite now is it.

Except that Alistair was RIGHT THERE and is bound to know? If even HE can admit this at first, it's pretty damn obvious.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

[quote]Persephone wrote...



[quote]Klidi wrote...
You also suggested that it was delayed because the Wardens allied themselves with the darkspawn. I want to see some ingame proof for that.

If you can't provide it, then please stop presenting your way of role-playing the game as the facts.


[/quote]
Me thinks Persephone is making assumptions again *Shakes head*

[/quote]

I did not say that. READ carefully. I said given that the Wardens allied themselves to the darkspawn in THE CALLING and Loghain knowing this first hand, makes his conclusion of the Wardens committing treason again (Though wrong) feasible. He is still wrong. But not pulling arguments out of thin air.

[/quote]
Correction......SOME WARDENS not all!

[ShimmeringDjinn]

@ Persephone
How long do you suppose it took it get to the top of the tower AFTER fighting through the Darkspawn?
Alistair was assuming the signal had been missed, he did not say IT HAS been missed.

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

I say allegedly because Loghains actions after Rowan died clearly say to me that he never loved her. For if he did he would NOT leave her child (And possibly his) to die or poison her brother.

Not everything is B&W , you know?

And there are more important things than love, even if it is still there after all those years.

Sorry to bring this up but.... Severus Snape and Lily. He CAUSED her death, tormented her son for years.... Did he never love her? He did. And he atoned for what he did. As Loghain does, post conscription. It's why it's called the Redeemer Ending, ya know? :happy:

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Correction......SOME WARDENS not all!

The WARDEN COMMANDER. And the previous WARDEN COMMANDER. :innocent:

[tklivory]

Noooo, don't Snape the thread!

(heh, couldn't resist)

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

I say allegedly because Loghains actions after Rowan died clearly say to me that he never loved her. For if he did he would NOT leave her child (And possibly his) to die or poison her brother.

Not everything is B&W , you know?

And there are more important things than love, even if it is still there after all those years.

Sorry to bring this up but.... Severus Snape and Lily. He CAUSED her death, tormented her son for years.... Did he never love her? He did. And he atoned for what he did. As Loghain does, post conscription. It's why it's called the Redeemer Ending, ya know? :happy:

Really? well thank you so much for the education.

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

@ Persephone
How long do you suppose it took it get to the top of the tower AFTER fighting through the Darkspawn?
Alistair was assuming the signal had been missed, he did not say IT HAS been missed.

"We surely missed the signal." Doesn't get much clearer. He was there and I am sure he paid attention.

[Klidi]

Persephone wrote...

Says Alistair after the ogre dies, in fact. "We've surely missed the signal."

No, it was not. Much as you may hate this but...David Gaider confirmed that it was not.

I don't hate it. I just don't accept it as an arguent. It has zero value for me. It's not in the game. It's just one of the possible views, no more correct than yours and his. He also respects this, you know - he always says that we do not have to consider it. So I don't. Try to come with something else, please.

And for me, if someone says 'I'm sure I missed something' doesn't prove he did.

But again, you're inconsistent: based on one remark that is not definite you say the signal was 'clearly' delayed, yet you chose to ignore the conversation with the guard in front of the Tower and the conversation between the Warden and Alistair which would imply that Loghain knew about the danger in the Tower.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Correction......SOME WARDENS not all!

The WARDEN COMMANDER. And the previous WARDEN COMMANDER. :innocent:

Again, some Wardens NOT all.

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

I say allegedly because Loghains actions after Rowan died clearly say to me that he never loved her. For if he did he would NOT leave her child (And possibly his) to die or poison her brother.

Not everything is B&W , you know?

And there are more important things than love, even if it is still there after all those years.

Sorry to bring this up but.... Severus Snape and Lily. He CAUSED her death, tormented her son for years.... Did he never love her? He did. And he atoned for what he did. As Loghain does, post conscription. It's why it's called the Redeemer Ending, ya know? :happy:

Really? well thank you so much for the education.

No need to be snide. You've been just as educational.

Maybe we should just concede that either side has good points and leave it at that? 

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

@ Persephone
How long do you suppose it took it get to the top of the tower AFTER fighting through the Darkspawn?
Alistair was assuming the signal had been missed, he did not say IT HAS been missed.

"We surely missed the signal." Doesn't get much clearer. He was there and I am sure he paid attention.

Notice I bolded that one little word? THAT is an assumption not a definite "We missed the signal"

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

I say allegedly because Loghains actions after Rowan died clearly say to me that he never loved her. For if he did he would NOT leave her child (And possibly his) to die or poison her brother.

Not everything is B&W , you know?

And there are more important things than love, even if it is still there after all those years.

Sorry to bring this up but.... Severus Snape and Lily. He CAUSED her death, tormented her son for years.... Did he never love her? He did. And he atoned for what he did. As Loghain does, post conscription. It's why it's called the Redeemer Ending, ya know? :happy:

Really? well thank you so much for the education.

No need to be snide. You've been just as educational.

Maybe we should just concede that either side has good points and leave it at that? 

Why thank you for the compliment. But no, I will never concede that Loghain has good points.

[tklivory]

Must...resist...saying...Rowan...wouldn't...agree...

Phew, didn't say it.

[Persephone]

Klidi wrote...


I don't hate it. I just don't accept it as an arguent. It has zero value for me. It's not in the game. It's just one of the possible views, no more correct than yours and his. He also respects this, you know - he always says that we do not have to consider it. So I don't. Try to come with something else, please.

And for me, if someone says 'I'm sure I missed something' doesn't prove he did.

But again, you're inconsistent: based on one remark that is not definite you say the signal was 'clearly' delayed, yet you chose to ignore the conversation with the guard in front of the Tower and the conversation between the Warden and Alistair which would imply that Loghain knew about the danger in the Tower.

The conversation with the guard told me that the Tower was being secured for battle. The darkspawn breaking through anyway could have happened for numerous reasons.... Just like the situation at Vigil's Keep where they erupted through as well, even though the Keep was fortified and Wardens were there. I very much doubt Loghain sent them an invitation though.

I take Alistair's word there because if he says this at THAT moment, it's pretty clear. He can tell because he is right there in game time. Other than a game clock ticking, it couldn't be clearer.

I do not have to "come up" with anything. The game's writer debunked that theory and that's that for me. You don't have to see it that way of course, that's your right.

[Klidi]

Persephone wrote...

I did not say that. READ carefully. I said given that the Wardens allied themselves to the darkspawn in THE CALLING and Loghain knowing this first hand, makes his conclusion of the Wardens committing treason again (Though wrong) feasible. He is still wrong. But not pulling arguments out of thin air.

He is. Because, again: it's not the Warden who guards the tower and tells you about the tunnels.

He's a general. That he wouldn't know something as important as tunnels in the key place for his strategy is unrealistic and stupid. Yet he did not inform the Wardens about the danger.

So, even if the signal was delayed - but there's no proof for that - and he assumed that Wardens betrayed the king, then he was not only 'pulling arguments of the thin air', he was incapable or thinking. What you're saying makes him look as a total incompetent fool, and completely OOC.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Klidi wrote...

Persephone wrote...

I did not say that. READ carefully. I said given that the Wardens allied themselves to the darkspawn in THE CALLING and Loghain knowing this first hand, makes his conclusion of the Wardens committing treason again (Though wrong) feasible. He is still wrong. But not pulling arguments out of thin air.

He is. Because, again: it's not the Warden who guards the tower and tells you about the tunnels.

He's a general. That he wouldn't know something as important as tunnels in the key place for his strategy is unrealistic and stupid. Yet he did not inform the Wardens about the danger.

So, even if the signal was delayed - but there's no proof for that - and he assumed that Wardens betrayed the king, then he was not only 'pulling arguments of the thin air', he was incapable or thinking. What you're saying makes him look as a total incompetent fool, and completely OOC.

All of this I agree with

[Klidi]

Persephone wrote...

Klidi wrote...


I don't hate it. I just don't accept it as an arguent. It has zero value for me. It's not in the game. It's just one of the possible views, no more correct than yours and his. He also respects this, you know - he always says that we do not have to consider it. So I don't. Try to come with something else, please.

And for me, if someone says 'I'm sure I missed something' doesn't prove he did.

But again, you're inconsistent: based on one remark that is not definite you say the signal was 'clearly' delayed, yet you chose to ignore the conversation with the guard in front of the Tower and the conversation between the Warden and Alistair which would imply that Loghain knew about the danger in the Tower.

The conversation with the guard told me that the Tower was being secured for battle. The darkspawn breaking through anyway could have happened for numerous reasons.... Just like the situation at Vigil's Keep where they erupted through as well, even though the Keep was fortified and Wardens were there. I very much doubt Loghain sent them an invitation though.

I take Alistair's word there because if he says this at THAT moment, it's pretty clear. He can tell because he is right there in game time. Other than a game clock ticking, it couldn't be clearer.

I do not have to "come up" with anything. The game's writer debunked that theory and that's that for me. You don't have to see it that way of course, that's your right.

In fact, it's that Alistair said it at that moment, after a battle, that makes it uncertain for me... But all right, it may be a matter of view.

No, the author offered one of the possible interpretations and gave me the right to accept it or not. So clearly, presenting his words as a 'final argument' that beats everything disrespects the author will. But you don't have to see it that way, of course, it's your right.

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Not everything is B&W , you know?

And there are more important things than love, even if it is still there after all those years.

Sorry to bring this up but.... Severus Snape and Lily. He CAUSED her death, tormented her son for years.... Did he never love her? He did. And he atoned for what he did. As Loghain does, post conscription. It's why it's called the Redeemer Ending, ya know? :happy:

Really? well thank you so much for the education.

No need to be snide. You've been just as educational.

Maybe we should just concede that either side has good points and leave it at that? 

Why thank you for the compliment. But no, I will never concede that Loghain has good points.

I am sorry to hear that. That is why I referred to B&W. He does have good points, even most of his severe critics concede that much.

He is a fascinating, deep, complex character; not a 100% evil villain.

It is such extremes that sadden me. Anyway, it's late and since you have shown me nothing but contempt (I snarked at you too, but I also offered an olive branch. You also kept getting PERSONAL, that surely did not help any) , I'll call it a night.

Thanks for the interesting debate though. Refreshing to have one of those again rather than seeing "DAII sucks"§ "No it doesn't!" everywhere.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

@ Persephone
To you he has good points, to me he has none.
For the record, I do not hold any contempt for you -in fact I have thoroughly enjoyed debating with you- I simply will never ever like Loghain.
And I apologise if my comments were personal. Good night to you

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 30 novembre 2011 - 12:35 .

[Klidi]

yes, he's a fascinating, deep, complex... villain. Those are good points of him as a written character, not of his character. There's a huge difference for me.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Whew, I'm not even on a phone, and I can't keep up.


Way back to the "He started the civil war" argument: It's not as if Loghain stood up and said "I AM NOW REGENT! LET'S FIGHT ABOUT IT, BANNORN!" He became Regent --though so clumsily and heavy-handedly that he alienated many people who might otherwise have supported him-- because he thought it was the best and quickest way to *unite* the country in a time of crisis. Kind of like imposing martial law, which in a crisis situation that requires an army to solve, can actually be a necessary thing. He found his country under attack by a Darkspawn horde, minus a king and a large Darkspawn-fighting army. He was the General of the regular army and the Queen's father. It made sense to him to say "Okay, everybody follow me, send your troops and whatever arms and goods you can spare and let's take care of this ASAP" --and to think of those who refused as somehow not wanting their country to overcome this particular disaster. The civil war started when several nobles contested this plan and he treated them as if they were soldiers in his army disobeying an order. Also, when the already discontented nobles heard that two Grey Wardens had survived and were raising armies in opposition of Loghain's, and that one of them was Maric's son, that gave them a flag behind which to march.

As with most everything else in Dragon Age, this viewpoint is a matter of perspective. You can agree with it or not. What I maintain as absolutely true is that Loghain never set out to start a civil war, or to destroy his country either by action or omission of action. He did several things badly, which he admits and for which he seeks to atone if you let him. But it speaks to his motives that, in the first conversation you have with him in camp after recruiting him, the only thing he asks of you is for you to end the Blight, and he will follow you.

[Persephone]

Klidi wrote...

yes, he's a fascinating, deep, complex... villain. Those are good points of him as a written character, not of his character. There's a huge difference for me.

Someone seeking atonement is not a villain. Howe is a villain to me. Just pointing out the difference in my case.

Good night gals (My Internet went bonkers...gah!) and liking Loghain or not: HAPPY GAMING!

Modifié par Persephone, 30 novembre 2011 - 12:59 .

[Persephone]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Whew, I'm not even on a phone, and I can't keep up.


Way back to the "He started the civil war" argument: It's not as if Loghain stood up and said "I AM NOW REGENT! LET'S FIGHT ABOUT IT, BANNORN!" He became Regent --though so clumsily and heavy-handedly that he alienated many people who might otherwise have supported him-- because he thought it was the best and quickest way to *unite* the country in a time of crisis. Kind of like imposing martial law, which in a crisis situation that requires an army to solve, can actually be a necessary thing. He found his country under attack by a Darkspawn horde, minus a king and a large Darkspawn-fighting army. He was the General of the regular army and the Queen's father. It made sense to him to say "Okay, everybody follow me, send your troops and whatever arms and goods you can spare and let's take care of this ASAP" --and to think of those who refused as somehow not wanting their country to overcome this particular disaster. The civil war started when several nobles contested this plan and he treated them as if they were soldiers in his army disobeying an order. Also, when the already discontented nobles heard that two Grey Wardens had survived and were raising armies in opposition of Loghain's, and that one of them was Maric's son, that gave them a flag behind which to march.

As with most everything else in Dragon Age, this viewpoint is a matter of perspective. You can agree with it or not. What I maintain as absolutely true is that Loghain never set out to start a civil war, or to destroy his country either by action or omission of action. He did several things badly, which he admits and for which he seeks to atone if you let him. But it speaks to his motives that, in the first conversation you have with him in camp after recruiting him, the only thing he asks of you is for you to end the Blight, and he will follow you.

Well said. The man is deeply flawed, yes. But evil he is not. If he were just another evil monster with no good points, we would not be having this debate.

[tklivory]

Dangit, now I'm curious: has anyone ever tried to (seriously) defend Howe? Or does Tim Curry get just another unadulterated villain added to his list o' acting?