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I think we should have squad deaths even if we play well...


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428 réponses à ce sujet

#1
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I felt I had to make some noise about this because although it seems there are quite a few who would rather have the ability to save all squadmates and avoid another Virmire situation (which might have felt like cheap drama for some - including myself), I'm sure there are also quite a few who want squad deaths to happen even if you try to do everything you can to stop it. In the context of ME3 it would feel cheaper to me if it doesn't happen. And I'm really hoping ME3 squad deaths won't be like the ones in ME2's Suicide Mission (to me, those deaths felt rather hollow because the only way it happened was if I played badly).


With ME3, I think we should have squad deaths even if we play as well as we possibly can, because the whole story has been building up to this epic, apocalyptic, war against the Reapers. Our squad is going to be on the front line of that war and if the characters are well written enough and we're made to feel attached to them then the potential for really tugging our heart strings is huge.


Now, many think that squad deaths equate to forced drama, but in my opinion the real issue is that, so far, it hasn't been pulled off in a way that felt really powerful. The other night I was watching Last Samurai and I remember thinking how powerful it would've been if any of the squad deaths were even half as moving as Nobutada's or Katsumoto's death. Virmire is barely even close to either of those scenes. (Btw, I would normally link to YouTube videos of those to try to further sell the point, but I realise that doesn't always work as you really need to watch the film to “warm you up” for those scenes, so I'd highly recommend watching the entire film instead - or any film that has a good example)


I know some will argue that because the ME games are about choice, we should accommodate some players and give them the option to have their whole crew survive, but the choices you make are limited to Shepard, who isn't a god-like character, and you're going to end up in impossible situations beyond Shepard's control. Your influence should be appropriately limited to the influence Shepard would have on the ME world. I should be able to do the best I can in a given situation but my Shepard shouldn't always be able to foresee what situation is going to come round the corner and then be able to control every aspect of it. With an epic, apocalyptic, full-scale war against the Reapers, it should be impossible for Shepard to never end up in an ugly situation where the outcome is likely to be tragic. War is ugly whether Shepard likes it or not.


Some people think that if they beat the Reapers and lose some squaddies along the way, that they'll feel like crap in the end. I'll probably feel the same if those deaths are pulled off really badly. But if they do those deaths serious justice and I did everything I could to try to save them and I ended up saving the galaxy, then I would probably be thinking something along the lines of, “thank god they didn't die in vein. That was the most exausting and hopeless war we've ever been in, but we did it – we actually stopped the Reapers. They had been forcing a cycle of genocide for millions and millions of years, and we actually stopped it.”  I'd breath a huge sigh of relief, feel absolutely triumphant, be happy that, although my companions' deaths were tragic, their deaths weren't a waste - and most of all that the whole war was a fight that actually met the expectations that have been building up in my head ever since we were first introduced to the Reapers in ME1.


Also, who wants to see Wrex or Grunt go out in a 300-esque blaze of krogan glory to save the rest of us?

Modifié par AwesomeName, 26 novembre 2011 - 01:42 .


#2
Drinking Shepard

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I wouldn't worry about squad mates dying in ME 3

#3
C9316

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*Protects Liara, Garrus, and Wrex and or Grunt from dying*

#4
Dominus

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I've yet to see what the leaked script looked like, but I would say it's a fair guess at least one squadmate may be snuffed out. A bit too late to hope for last minute changes on something that pivotal, but it's a well written topic nonetheless. All we can do is essentially twiddle our thumbs for the next 3 months to find out whether or not it will play out that way.

#5
Someone With Mass

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It'll probably please some, given the context of the script.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 26 novembre 2011 - 02:06 .


#6
Drinking Shepard

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Someone With Mass wrote...

It'll probably please some, given the context of the script.


If your Shepard is a selfish, ungrateful son of a... who doesn't give a frack about anyone and is in love with himself, then you'll enjoy ME 3 a lot more than others

#7
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DominusVita wrote...

I've yet to see what the leaked script looked like, but I would say it's a fair guess at least one squadmate may be snuffed out. A bit too late to hope for last minute changes on something that pivotal, but it's a well written topic nonetheless. All we can do is essentially twiddle our thumbs for the next 3 months to find out whether or not it will play out that way.


*whimpers* I agree :(  Still, I couldn't help myself when I saw the feedback to the script and then the reaction from the devs that they might tweak things (even though it's probably minor stuff)

#8
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Drinking Shepard wrote...

If your Shepard is a selfish, ungrateful son of a... who doesn't give a frack about anyone and is in love with himself, then you'll enjoy ME 3 a lot more than others


True.

#9
Nerevar-as

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As long as deaths are well done I have no big problems. One of the reasons Virmire worked so well was that there were no mistakes, Shepard did things as best as possible yet it wasn´t enough to get everyone out.

If however deaths look easily avoidable or through Cutscene Incompentence there´s going to be a lot of anger around.

#10
Selene Moonsong

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In ME 2, squad deaths, such as the Suicide mission, are determined by a player's choices, not by playing badly. For a while, I was almost convinced that I could never complete that particular mission without a squad member death, even though I thought I played well.

However, I later realized that it was my choices in who I chose to join me that was making the difference in that run, not just whether or not I had gained not only loyalty and the respect and friendship of each of the squad members as well.

I don't like forced choices where the choice is a guaranteed death sentence for one team member and survival of another, such as the Kaiden/Ashley choice in ME; I don't believe in no-win situations, and that there should always be a chance, slim as it may be, to make an end run around such situations. I'm not saying no hard choices as hard choices add to the drama, but I also like options to solutions beyond the two extremes.

For example, I don't mind trying to decide the team mate best suited to achieve a goal as long as I can decide on which is best suited to achieve that goal and have the best chance to survive it, as long as there are possible means on improving those chances; I don't like to waste resources of any kind.

I can, however accept a squad-mate volunteering for something and being lost because of it, for example, whether it be by my choices, or intended by the writers for dramatic effect.

#11
Someone With Mass

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Nerevar-as wrote...

As long as deaths are well done I have no big problems. One of the reasons Virmire worked so well was that there were no mistakes, Shepard did things as best as possible yet it wasn´t enough to get everyone out.

If however deaths look easily avoidable or through Cutscene Incompentence there´s going to be a lot of anger around.


Forced deaths are weak. Partially why I never really cared when some people in most video games die. It's trying to be edgy or show the seriousness of the moment without having a good reason to kill a character, and fails at it. Hard.

#12
Yezdigerd

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The Virmire choice never moved me, the character's death is never intrinsic to the plot. It was just here have a hanky, now feel sad. Since I know that someone must die no matter what I do there the encounter just suspends my disbelief. It would have been dramatic if squad deaths in ME2 actually had been affected by your skill in playing the game and not arbitary choices. Would increase replayability as well.

From a game design perspective I also feel squad deaths are a waste of resources. In ME3 it will apparently force the old squad into cameos, because it's too much work to account for alternative paths due to death. It would be easier to tug at heart strings by changing the behaviour and apperance of static npcs in the game, instead of having an npc with dialogue for every mission in the game that might be dead.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 26 novembre 2011 - 03:59 .


#13
Dreadwing 67

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It would be nice to see Blaze of glory's or choose to idk either save Jack or let an alliance space station fall that could really help your war efforts.

#14
MassStorm

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Squad deaths no matter what are frankly stupid because it eliminates altogether any incentives in playing well. I like ME series because my choices matter if they do not matter anymore then why bother playing. In conclusion i'm all for total control of the player. Play well, you get a good ending, play bad you will suffer the consequences. In such important things like "who lives who dies" no matter what situations are game breaker for me

#15
jamesp81

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MassStorm wrote...

Squad deaths no matter what are frankly stupid because it eliminates altogether any incentives in playing well. I like ME series because my choices matter if they do not matter anymore then why bother playing. In conclusion i'm all for total control of the player. Play well, you get a good ending, play bad you will suffer the consequences. In such important things like "who lives who dies" no matter what situations are game breaker for me


I'm going to go with that.

#16
Flashing Steel

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I wouldn't like a team death forced upon me when there is the choice to do something about it. It gives me more room to role play different sheps too.

#17
Drinking Shepard

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Selene Moonsong wrote...

I don't like forced choices where the choice is a guaranteed death sentence for one team member and survival of another, such as the Kaiden/Ashley choice in ME; I don't believe in no-win situations, and that there should always be a chance, slim as it may be, to make an end run around such situations. I'm not saying no hard choices as hard choices add to the drama, but I also like options to solutions beyond the two extremes.


Yes, exactly, in ME 2 it is all up to us, everyone can survive or only Joker will make it out. In ME 3, however, there seem to be a couple of totally unavoidable squad mate deaths, a-la Virmire. And that sucks a great deal

#18
Rafael_River

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very true!!!!

deaths in ME2 were not effective or powerful that when my garrus died, my sheppard nor myself didnt even feel a thing


death possibilties for each characters should be an important event and they should make the scene epic and powerful


maybe this is what they meant as to not having a permanent squadmates, cuz they can die before the final battle

#19
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This seems to depend on what you mean by "squad". Technically, characters like Mordin, Thane, Jack, etc. are no longer part of our squad in ME3, so if one of these was to die unavoidably, would you consider that to be a "forced squadmate death"?

#20
bleetman

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Scripted or otherwise unavoidable squad deaths only work - and I define 'work' as 'invoking some kind of emotional impact' - the first time.

Well, that's not entirely fair, they do that on any followup playthroughs, too. It's just the emotion in question is 'annoyance', eventually replaced with 'resigned indifference'. Leaving Kaidan behind in ME1 certainly only bothered me the first time: any time after that, I already knew it was coming a couple of dozen hours in advance. Dozens of hours I spent, for the record, not interacting with Kaidan at all, because he just dies later anyway.

So no. Not a fan of them.

Modifié par bleetman, 26 novembre 2011 - 04:17 .


#21
Someone With Mass

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bleetman wrote...

Scripted or otherwise unavoidable squad deaths only work - and I define 'work' as 'invoking some kind of emotional impact' - the first time.

Well, that's not entirely fair, they do that on any followup playthroughs, too. It's just the emotion in question is 'annoyance', eventually replaced with 'resigned indifference'. Leaving Kaidan behind in ME1 certainly only bothered me the first time: any time after that, I already knew it was coming a couple of dozen hours in advance. Dozens of hours I spent, for the record, not interacting with Kaidan at all, because he just dies later anyway.

So no. Not a fan of them.


Yeah, that pretty much sums up my thoughts on the subject as well.

#22
therussianviking

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 as long as BW can make the deaths have punch after the first playthrough.

#23
RamirezWolfen

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I'm okay with a no win situation, as long as it's not limited to two characters only, like the Virmire thing. Let it be any character, and a different death scene for each one. That would give it more variation and give emotion more than the first time.

#24
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RamirezWolfen wrote...

I'm okay with a no win situation, as long as it's not limited to two characters only, like the Virmire thing. Let it be any character, and a different death scene for each one. That would give it more variation and give emotion more than the first time.

I don't think you would actually get a lot of emotion out of this one, because people would just tend to throw away the character that they weren't emotionally attached to.

#25
KainrycKarr

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Selene Moonsong wrote...

In ME 2, squad deaths, such as the Suicide mission, are determined by a player's choices, not by playing badly. For a while, I was almost convinced that I could never complete that particular mission without a squad member death, even though I thought I played well.

However, I later realized that it was my choices in who I chose to join me that was making the difference in that run, not just whether or not I had gained not only loyalty and the respect and friendship of each of the squad members as well.

I don't like forced choices where the choice is a guaranteed death sentence for one team member and survival of another, such as the Kaiden/Ashley choice in ME; I don't believe in no-win situations, and that there should always be a chance, slim as it may be, to make an end run around such situations. I'm not saying no hard choices as hard choices add to the drama, but I also like options to solutions beyond the two extremes.

For example, I don't mind trying to decide the team mate best suited to achieve a goal as long as I can decide on which is best suited to achieve that goal and have the best chance to survive it, as long as there are possible means on improving those chances; I don't like to waste resources of any kind.

I can, however accept a squad-mate volunteering for something and being lost because of it, for example, whether it be by my choices, or intended by the writers for dramatic effect.


Well that's just full of a crap. If you're a dick to your squadmates, and/or don't do their loyalty missions, that's how they die. You had to willfully ignore obvious things and play badly. Let's not pretend otherwise.

That said, I am against the OP. I am only okay with Virmire type squadmate deaths.