428 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Once again, ANYthing can be "cliche," it's how it's done that matters. And of course it shouldn't be used for shock or drama, but death is a natural result of things like war, and NOT implementing it also seems cheap.

I hate to say it, but we seem to bump up against realism vs. escapism every time this issue comes up.

It is inevitable, as that's really where most of the arguments come from. For what it's worth, I don't think anyone is going to get anywhere relying on "cliche" as an argument. I can point to a good number of stories where everyone has lived, and a good number of stories where characters have died, so I don't think either method really has an advantage on that front.

[Han Shot First]

marstor05 wrote...

its war and people die - thats the plan..

Pretty much this.

This going to be the most epic conflict in Earth's history. It is going to make WW1 or WW2 look like walks in the park (the existence of our species was never at stake) and Shepard's team isn't going to suffer any losses?

[KingDan97]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Oh, you must have been playing a really long movie with combat thrown in for sh*ts and giggles JRPG.

There are, naturally, exceptions to every rule, but I think the bleed-over into novel/film territory is a result of gaming's youth as an entertainment medium.  That and, you know, it's easier to borrow something you know will work well than it is to experiment with the road less traveled.

Death is also cliche.  80% of the time, it's either a cheap shot for the heartstrings or a sign that somebody's out of ideas.

Not completely against death, but it's not necessary for a strong, emotional story, and it should never be present for JUST shock/drama.

STOP KNOCKING FF (((((


Once again, ANYthing can be "cliche," it's how it's done that matters. And of course it shouldn't be used for shock or drama, but death is a natural result of things like war, and NOT implementing it also seems cheap.

I hate to say it, but we seem to bump up against realism vs. escapism every time this issue comes up.

It's about the poignancy of the moment, and if it matters to Jack to save someone, it's automatically not my choice if she goes to do it but if she gets hit by a random bullet on the way to the kid and the kid just so happens to run accross while the sniper is focusing on Jack, that is a waste because why does it matter that it was Jack? Why not someone else, they've all got early life issues with the exception of Legion.

If someone does die, I want it to be fore them, or for the advancement of another character either through dealing with the grief or to make it clear the baddie you were up against ain't just blowing steam, and if it's the latter than why not make it clear through something outside of killing someone who's trying to stop them, because that's very easily justifiable.

It's the difference between Saren turning on Nihlius and Saren trying to kill you the entire game, one is unexpected, one is a no duh moment.

[KingDan97]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

KingDan97 wrote...
Really, a random character dying is somehow more cheap than sacrificing a person I'd actually give half a turd about for the same pointless base that in the end I will NEVER visit again? Sorry, but that's counterintuitive.

Think about what's happening. You're not sacrificing someone for a base: you're sacrificing them to stop Saren's Krogan horde, his easy conquest of the galaxy, the arrival of the Reapers. You can't see the forest for the trees.

I sacrificed someone on Virmire not because Saren's facility was there and what it could do but because a BOMB was about to go off and the choices were kill everyone involved or save everyone but one person, they took the former out of my hands and instead made it a dualality of which charater it was. I didn't care one bit for Saren's base, or it's destruction, I cared that one of two people I cared about were in imminent danger and because Joker couldn't make a stop at both(for some ineffable reason, I mean he was flying a SPACESHIP, we couldn't have been more than a minute away from each other) I needed to choode who would live and who would die, there was no bigger thing at risk, the base was going down anyway but I had to choose between two people I cared about.

They can't pull that again though because it's a note they've already hit, it's that simple.

[KingDan97]

Han Shot First wrote...

marstor05 wrote...

its war and people die - thats the plan..

Pretty much this.

This going to be the most epic conflict in Earth's history. It is going to make WW1 or WW2 look like walks in the park (the existence of our species was never at stake) and Shepard's team isn't going to suffer any losses?

Not no loses, no loses for pointless causes(groups of civvies, random strongholds, items that are only historically valuable) This isn't a homeworld, it isn't a Dyson sphere, it isn't a Genophage cure that we're talking about, and if it is it's not our choice it's theirs. That is what I am saying, they are not our slaves, they are supposed to be individuals with their own motivations.

[AdmiralCheez]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

STOP KNOCKING FF (((((

Kekekeke.

Seriously, though, what did FFdo for you that it couldn't have done as an anime or whatever apart from the F*CK YEAH of beating a boss?

Once again, ANYthing can be "cliche," it's how it's done that matters. And of course it shouldn't be used for shock or drama, but death is a natural result of things like war, and NOT implementing it also seems cheap.

Of course, all the main characters surviving COULD ALSO be acceptable IF implemented well.

Like you said, it's how it's done that matters.  And even if both are pulled off phenomenally, which one is "better" is still a matter of taste.

I hate to say it, but we seem to bump up against realism vs. escapism every time this issue comes up.

But the reason you want it to be more realistic is because it enhances your immersion which makes it easier to get lost in the experience which means you're in it for the escapism all along AMIRITE?!

Seriously, if y'all loved real life so much, y'all wouldn't be playing videogames.  Now would you like to play pretend in chocolate or strawberry flavor today, Mr. Ambiguity?

[Harmless Citizen]

Actually the thing that confused me about Virmire was...how is it that Kirarrhe and his squad made it to the Normandy...but Ash/Kaidan didn't? There must be a reasonable explanation for this.

[KingDan97]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

KingDan97 wrote...
It's about the poignancy of the moment, and if it matters to Jack to save someone, it's automatically not my choice if she goes to do it but if she gets hit by a random bullet on the way to the kid and the kid just so happens to run accross while the sniper is focusing on Jack, that is a waste because why does it matter that it was Jack? Why not someone else, they've all got early life issues with the exception of Legion.

Let's see...Kasumi doesn't, Zaeed doesn't (or course those are DLC), Jacob doesn't, Mordin doesn't, Tali doesn't, Thane doesn't really (he sees no problem with his childhood), Grunt doesn't (he was merely without a clan, not a big issue)...

And that actually sounds like a great way to implement what some of us want: a randomized squad member death based both on your choices and a teensy bit on chance.

If someone does die, I want it to be fore them, or for the advancement of another character either through dealing with the grief or to make it clear the baddie you were up against ain't just blowing steam, and if it's the latter than why not make it clear through something outside of killing someone who's trying to stop them, because that's very easily justifiable.

It's the difference between Saren turning on Nihlius and Saren trying to kill you the entire game, one is unexpected, one is a no duh moment.

Understandable.

My point is more that, it's not special enough to warrant the death of a squaddie, if one of my squadmates is going to die it's their choice, and it being their choice shouldn't just be the paragon option of "It's your choice Grunt." They should do it of their own regard.

[KingDan97]

Random Nobody wrote...

Actually the thing that confused me about Virmire was...how is it that Kirarrhe and his squad made it to the Normandy...but Ash/Kaidan didn't? There must be a reasonable explanation for this.

There really isn't, since I always sent Kaiden with Kirrahe and always saved Ash and somehow Kirrahe was always just chilling in the lower deck, couldn't have waited for Kaiden to get there Joker you dick?

[KingDan97]

[quote]KingDan97 wrote...
I sacrificed someone on Virmire not because Saren's facility was there and what it could do but because a BOMB was about to go off and the choices were kill everyone involved or save everyone but one person, they took the former out of my hands and instead made it a dualality of which charater it was. I didn't care one bit for Saren's base, or it's destruction, I cared that one of two people I cared about were in imminent danger and because Joker couldn't make a stop at both(for some ineffable reason, I mean he was flying a SPACESHIP, we couldn't have been more than a minute away from each other) I needed to choode who would live and who would die, there was no bigger thing at risk, the base was going down anyway but I had to choose between two people I cared about.

They can't pull that again though because it's a note they've already hit, it's that simple.
[/quote]

What? You sure about that? As I know it, the squadmate at the bomb was needed to protect it from the geth coming to deactivate it. I don't think you're really thinking about this; the whole reason you're there is because of Saren's facility. Everything you do there has to do with Saren's facility.

[/quote]And the other one(for the purposes of this discussion we'll refer to him as Kaiden, or the guy who constantly whines about his stupid headaches because of implants that due to our similar age I should have too.)?

[Harmless Citizen]

Shep is an L3, so no, s/he shouldnt have them.

[Harmless Citizen]

All FFXIII characters annoyed me. All of them. I tried liking them, but failed....

[KingDan97]

Random Nobody wrote...

Shep is an L3, so no, s/he shouldnt have them.

That was more just me disliking Kaiden than wanting an actual response, although I do appreciate that you care enough to correct me.
/genuine

[Harmless Citizen]

I tried to like her. I really did. They overplayed the "tough heroine" archetype. If it's any consolation I hate Snow more than any other character (even Hope), best part of the game is his getting decked.

...Although I still thought, "What an anger management little strumpet."

[AdmiralCheez]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Did you know that FF 13 has seven hours of cutscenes? It's h311 trying to compile a music video from all that, I tell you.

Off topic, but do you know a good (preferably free) video capture program for the PC?  I know FRAPS works, but I do not plan on shelling $40 for the full version any time soon.

It DOES have fun combat, and playing for so many hours DOES help you get connected with the character in a way that a movie has difficulty doing.

True.  I get attached to my Pokemon.

Lightning is now Pikachu.

It's about real life actions or people in an extraordinary setting, if that makes any sense. I'll never go to space. I'll never be a spy-soldier-whatever the heck Spectres are, but it allows me to sample that in a (somewhat) realistic way.

That is pretty much exactly what escapism is.

[KingDan97]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

KingDan97 wrote...
My point is more that, it's not special enough to warrant the death of a squaddie, if one of my squadmates is going to die it's their choice, and it being their choice shouldn't just be the paragon option of "It's your choice Grunt." They should do it of their own regard.

...this is what we want...for them to do it on their own. Isn't that what you were saying, with them jumping out to help the kid?

This is precisly the type of thing that I would want to see.

But why that kid, that's my point. If it's a kid she sees a lot of herself in than introduce them earlier, make us see that she does care about the kid, make me care about her caring about the kid, and make it clear the kid wouldn't have survived if she hadn't died. Have her need to produce a biotic field so strong it fries her brain, a biotic field that only she could make because only she was willing to put enough of herself into it for that kid. Have her give last words, have me shed a tear because she finally learned to be so selfless from what she was when I picked her up in ME2.

Don't make it a bullet, or a distraction, make it something that only they can do, or only they care enough to do. That's what I'm saying, because at the end of the day it is the presentation, and spreading my team too thin(as originally suggested which is the idea I was really rejecting) is stupid, lazy and a cheap cop out just so that they don't have to say that they did kill off Jack, but that you chose it.

[KingDan97]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

KingDan97 wrote...
And the other one(for the purposes of this discussion we'll refer to him as Kaiden, or the guy who constantly whines about his stupid headaches because of implants that due to our similar age I should have too.)?

What? We each pick which person goes where, so Kaidan could be at either spot. Which spot speak ye of?

The non bomb spot.