428 réponses à ce sujet

[ZLurps]

Someone With Mass wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

We can tell what we feel ridiculous level of realism, but going beyond that... of course if we start demaning things that would take lot of resources from developers, well those just won't fly, but outside of that who am I to tell someone how to play the game?

Say this squad mate death... I would like to have an option to save everyone, well Thane is bit difficult because his sickness but scene where he sees his effort fighting against the Reapers haven't been worthless before dying would be good.
Anyway, what if there were squad mates deaths but in New Game+ mode you could save this squad mate. If it would be handled like squad mate would be wounded and out of duty instead of dying in New Game+ there wouldn't be necessarily much additional writing and voice work to do in comparison to path where character dies.
I guess everyone wouldn't be happy because of this and that and whatever, but I think it might balance the things out and give reward for players who care about NPC's and crowd that are completionists. Players who feel whole squad surviving would get what they want and keep that as their canon run.

I don't see how there would be way to play game "wrong" anymore than it's right or wrong to play paragon or renegade character.

I don't know. Seems a little too demanding for people with different Shepards to force them to play through the game twice to be able to save some characters. This would definitely be a problem for those who don't know how to save those characters/that the option even exists or if those characters' moments appear late in the game. 

That can be a problem, though there might be a hint about that when game ends, or in NG+ dialog window or something.
This has been done at least once BTW. in Max Payne 2 you could save major character when you played on higher difficulty levels. I wonder how many players ever get to know about that.

This could be turned around though... completing the game on certain difficulty level would unlock difficulty level where some NPC's wont make it.

Things like these are compromises, must say I'm glad I'm not writing this game and making decisions if some character dies and so, just speculating.

Modifié par ZLurps, 28 novembre 2011 - 04:15 .

[Nizzemancer]

marstor05 wrote...

its war and people die - thats the plan..

it's fiction and can have whatever plot possible - that's the plan.

[Il Divo]

Nizzemancer wrote...

marstor05 wrote...

its war and people die - thats the plan..

it's fiction and can have whatever plot possible - that's the plan.

It's kinda weird, because I find myself agreeing with both these statements...

[BatmanPWNS]

Nizzemancer wrote...

marstor05 wrote...

its war and people die - thats the plan..

it's fiction and can have whatever plot possible - that's the plan.

So if a giant chicken fell from the sky and crushed all the reapers with it's breath, you would say "it's fiction and can have whatever plot possible - that's the plan."?

[AdmiralCheez]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

So if a giant chicken fell from the sky and crushed all the reapers with it's breath, you would say "it's fiction and can have whatever plot possible - that's the plan."?

If that actually happened, infinite win.

[Harmless Citizen]

That is a delicious resolution. It would tie in nicely if it were a raloi.

[Someone With Mass]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

So if a giant chicken fell from the sky and crushed all the reapers with it's breath, you would say "it's fiction and can have whatever plot possible - that's the plan."?

I'd laugh for the good part of a month first.

[KingDan97]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Nizzemancer wrote...

marstor05 wrote...

its war and people die - thats the plan..

it's fiction and can have whatever plot possible - that's the plan.

So if a giant chicken fell from the sky and crushed all the reapers with it's breath, you would say "it's fiction and can have whatever plot possible - that's the plan."?

Yeah, and not believing in god means you worship Satan right? Because slippery slopes are clearly a scientifically proven effect and if one thing happens that is even slightly unrealistic(like, I dunno a giant race of sentient machines that are millions of years old) then clearly all bets are off.

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

None of that is true. I've played characters who I never managed to connect with. Shepard is a good example at this point as I find I've become far more invested in and sympathetic to other characters rather than Shepard.

If there's a disconnect between you and Shepard, then they did it wrong.  Either that or you're not using Shepard as a medium through which to explore--try being a participant rather than an observer in story events.  Roleplay.

I mean, come on, you've got at least one shameless self-insert playthrough, right?  It's, like, ridiculously fun.

I never said you couldn't. You know, I get the feeling we've had this debate before...

We have, and when we reached a deadlock we started being phenomenal dicks to each other, so let's call it quits.

[ZLurps]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Nizzemancer wrote...

marstor05 wrote...

its war and people die - thats the plan..

it's fiction and can have whatever plot possible - that's the plan.

So if a giant chicken fell from the sky and crushed all the reapers with it's breath, you would say "it's fiction and can have whatever plot possible - that's the plan."?

Make that a turkey and I'm in!

[Harmless Citizen]

No Harbinger joke yet?

Impressive.

[Feanor_II]

AGREE

There should an unpredictable component.

[ZLurps]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

If there's a disconnect between you and Shepard, then they did it wrong.  Either that or you're not using Shepard as a medium through which to explore--try being a participant rather than an observer in story events.  Roleplay.

That's a little hard when Shepard is a voiced character with his own personality. Sure, I can get into his head some, but it is way easier to do with a "silent" protagonist. Shepard isn't much more of a roleplaying piece than say, Niko Bellic. Even Niko lets you choose some of his dialogue (in the form of his interactive emails).

AdmiralCheez wrote...
I mean, come on, you've got at least one shameless self-insert playthrough, right?

Not really. Shepard doesn't have the voice or name to be a self-insert. I can't "be" him. He has too much personality of his own.

I don't have enough control.

You mean ME games are more like adventure games for you rather than RPGs?

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

That's a little hard when Shepard is a voiced character with his own personality. Sure, I can get into his head some, but it is way easier to do with a "silent" protagonist. Shepard isn't much more of a roleplaying piece than say, Niko Bellic. Even Niko lets you choose some of his dialogue (in the form of his interactive emails).

Dunno.  Playing the Warden creeps me out--everyone else talks and reacts like you spoke, but you're mute.  In games with conversations where everyone is voiced, I like the protagonist to be voiced, too, otherwise you get creepy Origins disconnect.  When nobody talks, it's fine, and it's okay for the protagonist to say little to nothing at all (Link, Gordon Freeman) when there's no dialogue system anyway.

I think Origins would be less creepy if it were from the first-person perspective.  Or maybe if the Warden were actually mute and you were selecting non-verbal actions and reactions...

Hrm.  The idea wheels are turning...

Not really. Shepard doesn't have the voice or name to be a self-insert. I can't "be" him. He has too much personality of his own.

I don't have enough control.

I'd say the voice and personality help immensely.  Shep seems less like some limp doll I'm controlling, and I get "in character" by bouncing off Shepard.  Perfect balance of life and control, in my opinion (most of the time).  I honestly feel like I'm living through another person.

It's a pretty awesome roleplaying experience, at least for me.  All my Shepards wind up being more badass versions of different facets of my personality.  Rowena?  That's gung ho me, with extra gung ho, jumping right in and following gut instinct.  Joanna?  That's the embodiment of the conflict between reason and feeling, and an opportunity to learn about myself.  Jasmine's there when I just want to push someone out a window (in essence, my teenage self), and Dick is the "f*ck you, I'm awesome" attitude I've taught myself to have, but with extra derp and a penis (hurr durr let's charge the YMIR because that couldn't possibly go wrong).

My goodness, that was off-topic.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Saphra Deden wrote...

None of that is true. I've played characters who I never managed to connect with. Shepard is a good example at this point as I find I've become far more invested in and sympathetic to other characters rather than Shepard.

Mmm hmm, Shepard can be such a cheesy dickward. S/he was less unlikeable in me1 I found.

[AdmiralCheez]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

I don't even know what to put here, cause I'm not sure if you're right or wrong...

Search your feelings.  You know it to be true.

Seriously, think about it: Why else would you want Mass Effect 3 to be realistic if you didn't want it to fool you into thinking it was real, at least while you were in the moment?  What is narrative value other than how well something lets you get lost in the story, how much it makes you feel, makes you think, makes you forget the room you're sitting in while your brain goes nuts on a brand new playground?

[KenKenpachi]

Its a game, I value a good time, if I want drama I'll just go to any mall or restruant during the rush and wait, someone is BOUND to show up with problems. I also don't like to get "lost" in anything. I fully like to be aware of as much around me as I can as often as I can. So a work of Fiction that sucks me away from the realities around me isn't welcomed for the most.

Hence why I'ld rather have your "typical" good ending. Its no problem of mine if your life is boring, or you can't handle what goes on around you.

[AdmiralCheez]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

 I DO want it to be realistic, but I'm not sure it's necessarily because I want to be "immersed" in it. I'm honest enough to admit that I don't know, though, and I may have to concede THAT point, strictly from it's ambiguity.

Ambiguity, he he...

Oh you.

But seriously, if you want something and you don't know why, time for a little self-reflection.

But anyway, that doesn't change what we're here about. We want DEATH and you folks don't.

The problem with scripted deaths, though, is that if they exist, then EVERYONE has them.  It's like putting peanuts on everyone's sundaes because only some people want them.

Well, what if I don't like peanuts?  What if I'm allergic?

It's silly to expect everything to be optional and all tastes accounted for, otherwise the game would be either greatly watered down or stuck in development for decades, but this sort of thing isn't too difficult to implement, so long as you, as the player, don't feel the need to do every task available just because it exists.  I'm willing to bet you have no trouble skipping one or two of the romances, right?

Let's look at the often cited Wrex paradox.  There are some that say it would be more powerful or more dramatic if he couldn't be saved.  But wouldn't you agree that ME2/ME3 is/will be so much more awesome with Wrex around?  And isn't part of the replayability due to the appeal of going back and doing things differently just to see what happens?

Not that I'm against death entirely.  Like I said before, it's perfectly
fine if it's not the same damn squadmate every single time (note I said
squadmate--if they're not on the squad, let the plot do as it wills,
but if they're a partially playable character, god damn it, I needed
that guy for Warp spam).  The problem is that they already did Virmire,
so the mechanics and presentation this time have to be different.

Just imagine what FFVII would have been like if Cloud could save Aerith at the cost of his own life.  Then, suddenly, the endgame becomes radically different, as the hero is dead, and the party has to move on without him.  The entire story changes, as Cloud's journey of understanding himself has come to a halt--how do you handle a scenario where your motivation for completing the game changes entirely?  Damn, I'd play that sh*t twice--once following the vanilla path and again nuking Cloud.

[AdmiralCheez]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

So randomized deaths, how about that?

Naw, randomized deaths would just lead to lots of reloading and/or hacking.

And yeah, Cloud/Aerith is like Ash/Kaidan: tons of people just don't give a sh*t about either one, and just as many were like GOD DAMN IT I LOVE THEM BOTH WHAT DO I DO?  But that's the risk you take with telling any story, whether there's player input or not--it reaches everyone differently.  It's more art than math.

But I agree that complexity and subtlety are good things.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 28 novembre 2011 - 07:57 .