428 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

I love Virmire situations. The lack of it disappointed me greatly in ME2.

In ME2 you'd have to deliberately sabotage yourself to loose squad members on the SM. How realistic is that?

This.

Hopefully in ME3 there will a be a few unavoidable deaths. Not in the sense of scripted with deaths with certain squadmates always dying at certain points in the game, but that it should be impossible for Shepard to get his entire team through unscathed. Shepard actions throughout the game should have an impact on who lives or dies but some squadmates should always die.

This is the final chapter in the trilogy and the start of the Reaper War. In case anyone was not paying attention through the last two games, the Reapers have successfully wiped out every civilization that has stood against them for hundreds of thousands of years. A rainbows and butterlfies ending where the entire team survives simply will not do.

Those that want an anchievement for a 'perfect' ending would still get it. The perfect outcome would be one in which Shepard's team suffered the minimum amount of casualties.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 27 novembre 2011 - 06:12 .

[CerberusWarrior]

Oh no Op I want the chance to murder the alliance princess Ashley in 3 .

[Chuvvy]

CerberusWarrior wrote...

Oh no Op I want the chance to murder the alliance princess Ashley in 3 .

You will.

[Mr. MannlyMan]

So, basically, the best solution would be:

Everybody can live, but it shouldn't result from the player's decision to do everything and, therefore, save everyone as much as it should be based on a moral and/or meaningful choice. Something that strengthens a common theme in the series, like sacrifice and the bonds of friendship. For example, leaving innocents to die so that the people close to you may live (that's an extreme, but you see what I'm getting at).

I, too, thought that saving everyone on the team in ME2 was more or less a cakewalk, and the SM was meaningless to me because there were very few meaningful decisions involved with keeping your squad alive. Once you had made all of the preparations (which the game itself kept reminding you to do beforehand), you were asked to make some very obvious leadership decisions to make your team as efficient as possible, and that was about it.

My hope is that there are forced crises, not deaths, which will FORCE the player to choose between his squadmates and his mission. Maybe Shepard stretches his crew thin by ordering them to find and evac all civilians in the near vicinity while he goes off to kick some ass? Maybe he chooses to rescue Garrus or Ashley from a husk swarm rather than go after an important diplomat? Stuff that reminds me of the "Distress Call" Trailer from the ME1 days; that's what I'd like to see more of. Of course, it'd only be fair if the number of crises you have to deal with in ME3 was reduced by making certain decisions in the past...

[Homey C-Dawg]

Everyone can die so long as <insert favorite character here> survives.

Seriously though, I'll just leave this one to Bioware. Requesting this kind of change in story structure is unrealistic at this stage.

[Swampthing500]

I disagree simply because, unless there is narrative significance, losing squad-members even if you play well just seems unfair, like the game is punishing me just for becoming attached to certain characters.

At least when you lose squad members in ME2 you can blame yourself for making the wrong decision.

If this happened no matter what I did, I would be fairly pissed off at characters I may want to have a squad member in the next game.

Modifié par Swampthing500, 27 novembre 2011 - 08:09 .

[GodWood]

Ahhh, one of the few things I really liked about the ME3 script.

[Biotic Sage]

Selene Moonsong wrote...

In ME 2, squad deaths, such as the Suicide mission, are determined by a player's choices, not by playing badly. For a while, I was almost convinced that I could never complete that particular mission without a squad member death, even though I thought I played well.

However, I later realized that it was my choices in who I chose to join me that was making the difference in that run, not just whether or not I had gained not only loyalty and the respect and friendship of each of the squad members as well.

I don't like forced choices where the choice is a guaranteed death sentence for one team member and survival of another, such as the Kaiden/Ashley choice in ME; I don't believe in no-win situations, and that there should always be a chance, slim as it may be, to make an end run around such situations. I'm not saying no hard choices as hard choices add to the drama, but I also like options to solutions beyond the two extremes.

For example, I don't mind trying to decide the team mate best suited to achieve a goal as long as I can decide on which is best suited to achieve that goal and have the best chance to survive it, as long as there are possible means on improving those chances; I don't like to waste resources of any kind.

I can, however accept a squad-mate volunteering for something and being lost because of it, for example, whether it be by my choices, or intended by the writers for dramatic effect.

Isn't that the same thing as Virmire?  Both Kaidan and Ashley volunteered to lead the strike team, and then they both volunteered to stay behind so the other could be saved.  Your example is just Virmire, but with no player input at all (which is fine, but they are ultimately the same thing, a character volunteering and dying).  The alternate would be: Kaidan volunteers to sacrifice himself, thus ensuring his death and guaranteeing the survival of every other squad member.

I had no problem with Virmire, and I have no problem with "forced" deaths.  If the death makes sense in terms of a character's personality, facilitates good strorytelling, or is a result of bad leadership by the player, then the death is fine with me; in fact, it is welcomed by me.  If my love interest has a chance to save me but would have to sacrifice herself to do so in ME3, then I would expect her character to make the sacrifice; it would be going against her character to not do so, and that's inconsistent storytelling.  I would be deeply saddened by it, I would not like it, but that's why it's good storytelling, because it elicited an emotional response from me; the character stayed true to herself to the very end within the parameters of the plot.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 27 novembre 2011 - 10:15 .

[Ticktank]

It'll be hard to get another "Aeris dies" moment.

Closest equivalent I can imagine will be Liara suffering an unpreventable death.

[MassStorm]

Ticktank wrote...

It'll be hard to get another "Aeris dies" moment.

Closest equivalent I can imagine will be Liara suffering an unpreventable death.

That day i will literally throw the game out of the window without even trying finishing it.....when in FF7 Aeris died after having invested so much time and effort in leveling up/appreciating that character i really stopped playing the game and never finished. Was so pissed off at that.

EDIT: Sorry but as i said before unavoidable deaths of main characters are for me game-breaker. 

Modifié par MassStorm, 27 novembre 2011 - 10:49 .

[Biotic Sage]

MassStorm wrote...

Ticktank wrote...

It'll be hard to get another "Aeris dies" moment.

Closest equivalent I can imagine will be Liara suffering an unpreventable death.

That day i will literally throw the game out of the window without even trying finishing it.....

But what if it's a really moving death?  What if her death demonstrated how much she cares for Shepard?  Yes I would throw things, but in a good way.  That's catharsis.

[Adugan]

I think fully renegade characters should have no choice but to have their squaddies die. Renegades would sacrifice some of them for an easier mission, where as Paragons should go out of their way to save them and make missions with potential squad losses much harder.

[bleetman]

Eckswhyzee wrote...

1. Not have a binary choice. "Oh, this is a part where one of the 16 people I've met throughout the entire series has to stay behind to blow up the base" *obviously better written than this

2.Vary the time and place of decision. So if you attempt missions in a different order or with different squadmates, you may have to make a hard decision but it won't always be on the same planet at the same time.

Whilst that would certainly be better than Virmire's abitrary "and now one of them dies" moment, if other people are anything like me - and my sympathies if you are - there's a tiny problem with that.

For example, let's say that system was in place in ME2. I'm doing, I don't know, the abandoned reaper level, with Tali and Garrus. In doing so, Tali snuffs it. My reaction? Start the level again with a team I care about less so one of them can take the bullet instead.

Still, this is all just me. Other people seem to actually want half their team to die for the sake of melodrama. Me? I'll have the same problem I had with reading A Song Of Ice And Fire - once the original 'main cast' started dropping like flies, I ran out of reasons to care about the actual story anymore. I stopped reading that around the end of the third book, because everyone I'd grown attached to was dead and I didn't much care for what was going on in the background. I don't care to find out whether the backstory of Mass Effect is enough to maintain my interest without the characters I enjoy being around. I'm willing to bet I'd know the answer to that already.

Biotic Sage wrote...

But what if it's a really moving death?  What if her death demonstrated how much she cares for Shepard?  Yes I would throw things, but in a good way.  That's catharsis.

If Liara died in Mass Effect 3, it could be the most moving, emotional scene ever produced, and there's a good chance I wouldn't really care. As much as I don't wish any ill-will on Liara, I can't say I really engage with her character in any real way, so her death wouldn't affect me as much as, say, someone who adored her. And if comments from folk who do hold any weight, I'd be willing to bet a decent proportion would stop playing right there, and/or avoid playing through the game again.

Character deaths only matter when those characters matter, and that's far from universal. Using them as a means to inject some tragedy into things just isn't reliable. Y'know, unless they kill off everyone, but that would make me gnash my teeth and howl in frustration more than anything else.

(This is incidentally from someone who appreciates the occasional Good Death every now and again. Just not inevitable, unavoidable death. Mass Effect 2 was way too leniant in regards to losing people for my tastes, but there's a fairly vast middle ground between that and 'people die, every time, and there's nothing you can do about it'. It shouldn't be one or the other.)

Modifié par bleetman, 27 novembre 2011 - 11:19 .

[wildannie]

Biotic Sage wrote...

MassStorm wrote...

Ticktank wrote...

It'll be hard to get another "Aeris dies" moment.

Closest equivalent I can imagine will be Liara suffering an unpreventable death.

That day i will literally throw the game out of the window without even trying finishing it.....

But what if it's a really moving death?  What if her death demonstrated how much she cares for Shepard?  Yes I would throw things, but in a good way.  That's catharsis.

As has been said earlier in the thread, unpreventable scripted deaths ruin replay value for many.  It's going to be moving once and then it gets annoying.  I'm not looking for that kind of catharsis from the Mass Effect series, I'm looking for choice and control.  

[Raizo]

Ticktank wrote...

It'll be hard to get another "Aeris dies" moment.

Closest equivalent I can imagine will be Liara suffering an unpreventable death.

I knew it was only a matter of time before someone brought up Aeris' death in FFVII. For various reasons her death had absolutly no emotional impact with me on my first playthough. As a matter of fact the only real impact that it has on me is that on repeated playthoughs I don't use the charcter at all. No point investing time and energy into leveleing up a charcater when you just know they are going to die ( especially that early on ) and there is nothing you can do about it.

[Someone With Mass]

GodWood wrote...

Ahhh, one of the few things I really liked about the ME3 script.

You mean the script that was based on certain pervious choices and clearly showed that whenever a character died there was a chance for him/her to live?

Yeah, those parts were good.

Keep your lame drama-seeping deaths to yourself.

[Harmless Citizen]

The above. I barely used Aeris (my permanent party was Tifa and Vince; Cloud had a levelled Restore materia). When she died, I said, "o shet!" and was horrified, but beyond that, I wasn't affected too much. Come second playthrough, I was pushing barrels on her head for the lulz.

I completely see OP's point, but scripted deaths only work if the player cares about the character; if s/he does not, it becomes a mere gameplay annoyance. In a narrative driven, largely choiceless series like FF, I can see the justification, but forcing deaths in ME not only diminishes replayability, but becomes bog standard and boring. Then the deaths just end up feeling contrived like the kid's at the end of the beta intro.

[Ticktank]

Raizo wrote...

Ticktank wrote...

It'll be hard to get another "Aeris dies" moment.

Closest equivalent I can imagine will be Liara suffering an unpreventable death.

I knew it was only a matter of time before someone brought up Aeris' death in FFVII. For various reasons her death had absolutly no emotional impact with me on my first playthough. As a matter of fact the only real impact that it has on me is that on repeated playthoughs I don't use the charcter at all. No point investing time and energy into leveleing up a charcater when you just know they are going to die ( especially that early on ) and there is nothing you can do about it.

I see your point, but I don't think its possible to find a fictional death scene anywhere (let alone in a videogame) that can make you equally upset as the first time. Even the emotionally inept girls I knew who bawled while watching Titanic were digging their noses by the 3rd/4th viewing. Aeris's death didn't make me QQ, but I found it extremely shocking and completely unexpected when I saw it *for the first time*, and thats IMO is where it should be measured. 

As for not levelling up a character you knew would be dying, I'd think that most people did the same thing to Kaiden/Ashley. Right from starting a new game, I already knew who I was going to leave behind on Virmire, and left them in their Onyx 1

[Someone With Mass]

Random Nobody wrote...

The above. I barely used Aeris (my permanent party was Tifa and Vince; Cloud had a levelled Restore materia). When she died, I said, "o shet!" and was horrified, but beyond that, I wasn't affected too much. Come second playthrough, I was pushing barrels on her head for the lulz.

I completely see OP's point, but scripted deaths only work if the player cares about the character; if s/he does not, it becomes a mere gameplay annoyance. In a narrative driven, largely choiceless series like FF, I can see the justification, but forcing deaths in ME not only diminishes replayability, but becomes bog standard and boring. Then the deaths just end up feeling contrived like the kid's at the end of the beta intro.

Aeris sucked hard, anyway. I had about three other characters that could take her place. Which also diminished the effect of her death. I was like: "Eh" and moved on.

I think that forced deaths just wastes the character, since anyone can do the dramatic death deal. As shown with the kid in the beta.

When you kill a character that's on your squad, not only are you wasting a potential story line that could be greater than the death scene, you're also pretty much telling the player "Ha, you actually wasted that much time on this character? Too bad for you!" and that isn't exactly a great motivator for future playthroughs, while BioWare obviously wants you to play the game multiple times. 

It can also lead to a potential railroading, as shown with the VS, who had a distinct character compared to the one that died. Then Horizon showed up, and we all know how "great" that mission was at the end.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 27 novembre 2011 - 12:19 .

[GodWood]

Someone With Mass wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Ahhh, one of the few things I really liked about the ME3 script.

You mean the script that was based on certain pervious choices and clearly showed that whenever a character died there was a chance for him/her to live?

Yeah, those parts were good.

*Spoilers*

From what I read two popular characters have unescapable deaths and another can only be kept alive by taking a very specific choice.

Keep your lame drama-seeping deaths to yourself.

I know, heaven forbid the player/Shepard feels any personal loss in an all out galactic war.

[Someone With Mass]

GodWood wrote...
I know, heaven forbid the player/Shepard feels any personal loss in an all out galactic war.

If you've actually read the script, you would see that he/she will. Without any of those, oh,  so important character deaths.

[GodWood]

Someone With Mass wrote...

GodWood wrote...
I know, heaven forbid the player/Shepard feels any personal loss in an all out galactic war.

If you've actually read the script, you would see that he/she will.

Like?

Without any of those, oh,  so important character deaths.

But there are character deaths.