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[Macropodmum]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'd like to see a party Hawke throws being crashed myself.

Lol, me too....

[Gervaise]

Kirkwall has numerous groups of assassins/thugs that appear throughout the game, so it doesn't make sense to have the crows in such numbers and then not follow through with further appearances of the followers of that particular guildmaster, who has an obligation under the terms of the crows to ensure that the job is done. One must assume that the master responsible for this group was one of those crows eliminated by Zevran. It might explain why a different set of crows recruited Hawke to dispose of Zevran, assuming that anyone who could withstand a large scale crow attack might be just the sort of person to get rid of their ex-member.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'd like to see a party Hawke throws being crashed myself.

It's a bit cliche for the main character to throw a party only to have demons attack, or someone murdered, but hey, a party would be a change of pace, yes.

Also, not all DLCs open with combat. Legacy, Warden's Keep, and The Stone Prisoner didn't open up with combat.

Well...perhaps I should have sait it's more that Bioware like the first challenge in their games to be combat. Legacy I can't speak for, but Stone Prisoner and Warden's Keep I'll grant start with a bit of dialogue that boils down to "Will you accept this quest?" But once you accept and go to the quest area, with the possibly exception of a snatch of dialogue, what do you get?

Stone Prisoner: Darkspawn have infested the village = Combat.
Warden's Keep: Demons have infested the keep = Combat.

Also:
Awakening: Darkspawk have taken over the Vigil = Combat
Return to Ostagar: The guy who gives you the quest has been ambushed = Combat
Witch Hunt: Flemeth's Hut has darkspawn around it = Combat

I can't remember how Leliana's Song or Golems start, and I won't count Darkspawn Chronicles for obvious reasons. Not to mention DA2, with an unskippable combat training scene at the start of every damn game...

My point is, why can't a DLC have a different 'first challenge' than combat? Gameplay in RPGs is more than killing stuff. MotA I guess they just wanted to show off Tallis' skillz, but that's no excuse for the rest of them. We expect combat in DLCs. It's a given. It's even more inevitable than the uber-endboss. It's just a formula now, and I wish Bioware would try to do it different (some of the Origins in DA:O did, which I loved).

I agree that the Crows being the ones to be hired is just..... eh.

Why couldn't it have been an Orlesian group of assassins hired by Prosper (but this wouldn't be revealed to the player until much, much later)?

I strongly suspect Bioware didn't want a link between Tallis and the attack, so it couldn't be Prosper. It was supposed to be incidental, something that just happened to happen.

Plus if they were Orlesian assassins it wouldn't have worked from a story standpoint. Prosper was setting Tallis up and wanted her to come so she could be isolated while his deal went down; he had agreed with Salit not to kill her.

The assassins were there solely to give us combat and show Tallis off. Also to give us a few initial doubts about her character's motives, which are immediately dispelled once you read the letter on the dead Crow.

[lv12medic]

Hawke is attacked at the beginning of MotA for the simple act of setting up the whole Bioware making fun of itself and it's ambush encounter design in DA2.

[TEWR]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...


It's a bit cliche for the main character to throw a party only to have demons attack, or someone murdered, but hey, a party would be a change of pace, yes.

Now I'm imagining Hawke as Sherlock Holmes when someone gets murdered in his estate.

Sherlock Hawke!

My point is, why can't a DLC have a different 'first challenge' than combat? Gameplay in RPGs is more than killing stuff. MotA I guess they just wanted to show off Tallis' skillz, but that's no excuse for the rest of them. We expect combat in DLCs. It's a given. It's even more inevitable than the uber-endboss. It's just a formula now, and I wish Bioware would try to do it different (some of the Origins in DA:O did, which I loved).

Hmmm.... you've got a point. Simple dialogue or puzzles to introduce us to the story of the DLC would be a nice change of pace.

I strongly suspect Bioware didn't want a link between Tallis and the attack, so it couldn't be Prosper. It was supposed to be incidental, something that just happened to happen.

Plus if they were Orlesian assassins it wouldn't have worked from a story standpoint. Prosper was setting Tallis up and wanted her to come so she could be isolated while his deal went down; he had agreed with Salit not to kill her.

Hmmm.... good point.

[Abispa]

Have you all forgotten that it is VARRIC that is telling this story!? Just be glad he didn't throw in a griffon and some werewolves for balance.

[thats1evildude]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

My point is, why can't a DLC have a different 'first challenge' than combat? Gameplay in RPGs is more than killing stuff. MotA I guess they just wanted to show off Tallis' skillz, but that's no excuse for the rest of them. We expect combat in DLCs. It's a given. It's even more inevitable than the uber-endboss. It's just a formula now, and I wish Bioware would try to do it different (some of the Origins in DA:O did, which I loved).

Dragon Age consists almost entirely of talking and fighting. You're only doing three things in these games: fighting, talking or running around so you can find someone you can either fight with or talk to.

I disagree that the DLCs "always begin with fights,"  as Warden's Keep, Witch Hunt, Leliana's Song and Legacy kick off with a fair bit of dialogue. But really, what's the alternative? There aren't mechanics for doing anything else in Dragon Age.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 01 décembre 2011 - 09:41 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

@thats1evildude - But all of the dialogue that opens those DLCs is little more than incidental scene-setting. It doesn't change anything or have any effect on the rest of the DLC. It's not *challenging*.

What's the alternative? Well, if dialogue and combat are the only options (I'm leery of forcing anyone to do a logic puzzle, especially if it's going to be the *same* logic puzzle every time), then what about dialogue that has the PC make a decision or take a stand that affects at least the beginning of the DLC? Why are the game-changing choices reserved for the middle/end of the game?

Instead of throwaway dialogue, it could be a moral conundrum (or more than one!). *Anything* that makes the player stop, think, and consider their answers, and these answers have an effect on the DLC.

Alternately, instead of giving the player a linear path to walk down, have a few branches. Start the DLC with a choice between chasing the villain across the plains, or attempting to outmanoeuvre him by taking the fast but dangerous shortcut. Bioware may deem branches like this inefficient if it renders a section of game inaccessible, but it's another option.

[ThePhoenixKing]

The whole Crow ambush thing really just comes out of nowhere, and it has a few negative consequences on the story of Mark of the Assassin as a result. First of all, it's more or less entirely without either context or motivation. Why are these people trying to kill Hawke? Why has someone gone through the trouble and expense to hire the Antivan Crows (who aren't cheap, after all) to kill Hawke (who is potentially the Champion at this point, or at least an important noble) for no adequately explained reason? If they had connected it to Salit's defection or Prosper's own power games, then that would have been more than acceptable, but without motivation, it just looks like another meaningless battle.

Which brings me to my next point. I understand why the DLC opens with this sequence; it's a dynamic way to get the ball rolling, it introduces us to the character of Tallis, and (on paper) it offers some motivation for Hawke to assist her in the heist. Unfortunately, at least with that last point, it doesn't really work, as the ambush by the Crows is basically like every other gang encounter we experience in the game. It's not like Zevran's ambush in Origins, which is a much more difficult sequence and where some outside intervention would have been appreciated; this is just a standard fight. Why should Hawke feel indebted to Tallis when the threat she assisted against is utterly typical of every other fight he or she encounters and beats without breaking a sweat?

[thats1evildude]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

@thats1evildude - But all of the dialogue that opens those DLCs is little more than incidental scene-setting. It doesn't change anything or have any effect on the rest of the DLC. It's not *challenging*.

What's the alternative? Well, if dialogue and combat are the only options (I'm leery of forcing anyone to do a logic puzzle, especially if it's going to be the *same* logic puzzle every time), then what about dialogue that has the PC make a decision or take a stand that affects at least the beginning of the DLC? Why are the game-changing choices reserved for the middle/end of the game?

Instead of throwaway dialogue, it could be a moral conundrum (or more than one!). *Anything* that makes the player stop, think, and consider their answers, and these answers have an effect on the DLC.

Alternately, instead of giving the player a linear path to walk down, have a few branches. Start the DLC with a choice between chasing the villain across the plains, or attempting to outmanoeuvre him by taking the fast but dangerous shortcut. Bioware may deem branches like this inefficient if it renders a section of game inaccessible, but it's another option.

OK, all fair points. 

Modifié par thats1evildude, 02 décembre 2011 - 10:31 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

ThePhoenixKing wrote...

The whole Crow ambush thing really just comes out of nowhere, and it has a few negative consequences on the story of Mark of the Assassin as a result. First of all, it's more or less entirely without either context or motivation. Why are these people trying to kill Hawke? Why has someone gone through the trouble and expense to hire the Antivan Crows (who aren't cheap, after all) to kill Hawke (who is potentially the Champion at this point, or at least an important noble) for no adequately explained reason? If they had connected it to Salit's defection or Prosper's own power games, then that would have been more than acceptable, but without motivation, it just looks like another meaningless battle.

Ultimately it is another meaningless battle. It has no consequences at all.

But it wasn't without motive, and there is context. You just have to read the letter on one of the dead assassins to find out who sent them (whoever you screwed over in the prologue to get into Kirkwall) and how they found you (Varric's contact Edge, who also set up your meeting with Tallis). It's all quite logically done if you can look past the implications that a) every man and his mabari can afford to hire Crows, and the Crows are incapable of any assassination attempts that don't involve frontal assaults.

Tallis says "They're usually better than this," but I've yet to see evidence of that.

Which brings me to my next point. I understand why the DLC opens with this sequence; it's a dynamic way to get the ball rolling, it introduces us to the character of Tallis, and (on paper) it offers some motivation for Hawke to assist her in the heist.

Not really. The assassins and Tallis were completely unrelated, and the note quickly proves this.

[Abispa]

Seriously, everyone TALKS about how bad ass the Crows are, well, actually the Crows do, but when have we ever seen any indication of this? Sure, Zevran got to kick some ass, but that was AFTER he was beaten by the Warden. In the world of hired murder, the Crows strike me as being the equivalent of Star Wars' Imperial Stormtroopers.

[ThePhoenixKing]

Abispa wrote...

Seriously, everyone TALKS about how bad ass the Crows are, well, actually the Crows do, but when have we ever seen any indication of this? Sure, Zevran got to kick some ass, but that was AFTER he was beaten by the Warden. In the world of hired murder, the Crows strike me as being the equivalent of Star Wars' Imperial Stormtroopers.

Well said. Zevran's ambush was pretty well-planned out in Origins, and the battle against Talesin was fairly tough, but overall, its seems like the bark of the Crows is way more than their bite. After all, they've built up such a reputation as a bunch of lethal bad-asses that it's probably been enough to discourage any competition, and since they never really have to face a genuine threat, they've probably grown to rest on their laurels. Besides, by the time DA2 rolls around, Zevran is basically tearing the Crows apart, so I could see how they'd be less effective in practice (even if it still is random for someone to hire them out of nowhere).

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Guys, Pride Demons are supposed to be insanely powerful and incredibly cunning. There are codex entries about one of those things getting loose and going on killing sprees. The Crows are well-documented as being the reason why no one invades Antiva and the country doesn't even have a standing army because any foreign general who thinks it's a smart idea to declare war gets assassinated! Yet our PCs kill both Pride Demon and Crow adversaries with relative ease.

Why? Because nothing, no matter how uber, is going to beat the PC unless it's in a scripted cinematic. The reason why these supposedly tough and apparently smart enemies keep getting steamrolled by us is because they're being overused in pointless combats.

As for Zevran, for a former Crow he obviously knows he isn't invincible. He doesn't go up against Nuncio and his goons until he has PC protection, and Nuncio is stupid enough to say "Yo Champion of Kirkwall, Imma gonna kill you now!" before cutting Zev's throat.

*sigh* Yes, the Crows lack brains. I'm just starving for a DA foe that's dangerous and intelligent, and I wished the Crows could've live up to both of these things.

I suppose I'll close with the description of the Antivan Garrote:

As legendary as these so-called 'Crows' are, why is it you keep finding their stuff for sale? Is it that they need the money? Sure, that's a fine assassin–needing to palm off his belt for poisons and what-not. The only other possibility is if someone knicked it off one of the dead buggers. So who wants to hire these awe-inspiring assassins? Either their britches keep falling down or they've got dozens of dead mates that keep keeling over. I grant you, this is a magnificent belt–best I've seen. But I'd downplay this whole Crow malarkey.

[TEWR]

Abispa wrote...

Seriously, everyone TALKS about how bad ass the Crows are, well, actually the Crows do, but when have we ever seen any indication of this? Sure, Zevran got to kick some ass, but that was AFTER he was beaten by the Warden. In the world of hired murder, the Crows strike me as being the equivalent of Star Wars' Imperial Stormtroopers.

well, he does tell the Warden of some of his assassinations. The only one that really is worth mentioning -- since one was an accidental death and the other was due to trickery -- is the second one. The second had him kill 4 people before falling out of a window -- though the Crows did ultimately succeed in their intended goal -- and getting robbed.

But as for ever seeing them be badass, we've never gotten to really see them assassinate someone.

[Abispa]

Well, Isabela was "saved" from her marriage by a successful Crow assassination. It seems that "artist" Zevran needs some sexual incentive to get the job done. Maybe all the Crows the Warden and the Champion have been mowing down have been celibate?

[Melca36]

caradoc2000 wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

Then the family of Friedrich, the noble you killed to gain membership in the Red Iron, want revenge.

But the note still refers to Cavril.

Your game must have glitched because I got the note about Friedrich's family.