591 réponses à ce sujet

[lobi]

Mass effect has always been pop-culture fluff. It was always intended to be pop-culture fluff. It is stereotypical non-sense that pushes rpg further towards being stylistically more film than game.

But, Alpha Protocol did it better.

Modifié par lobi, 27 novembre 2011 - 08:13 .

[111987]

Terror_K wrote...

111987 wrote...

ME1 only allowed you to approach Port Hanshan in multiple ways. That's really all I can remember; everything else was fairly linear.

Peak 15 had a couple of routes too: quick to Benezia through the soldiers and defenses, or help Dr. Cohen, etc.. Virmire had several paths, including the option to aid Kirrahe's team. Feros had the option to help the colonists or not (most of which took you to a completely different set of areas to accomplish) and had the optional stop-off at Jeong and Dr. Baynham for the thorian gas. Several sidequests had more than two ways to resolve them, sometimes with multiple paragon and renegade ways for each (e.g. with Samesh Bhatia's wife, there are both paragon and renegade paths for both outcomes. Same with the Hanar preacher. Same with spying on Raphael Vargas on Noveria or not, etc.) All in all, I felt ME1 had far more versatility. ME2 tended to just give you a situation, run you through it the same way every time and throw a single paragon or renegade way of resolving it right at the end.

ME2 had a lot of the same things. In Zaeed's misison, you could choose to save the refinery workers or kill Vido Santiago. In Kasumi's mission, there were the option when it comes to opening the vault to break through the windows into Hock's private quarter's, or hack into the PDA and pose as Chief Roe. In Thane's loyalty mission, you can choose to kill Joram Talid or not, and then choose whether or not to send Kolyat to jail. You can even choose between two squadmates, Samara and Morinth.

You had the option of both a Paragon and Renegade response for both the slave broker and synthetic insights rep on Illium. You could help Gianna Parasini bust the merchant, or betray her; you can help Conrad, or send him to his death.

Perhaps ME1 had a little more versatility, but I truly don't think it was as drastic as some people make it out to be.

[TheKillerAngel]

lobi wrote...

Mass effect has always been pop-culture fluff. It was always intended to be pop-culture fluff. It is stereo typical non-sense that pushes rpg further towards being stylistically more film than game.

But, Alpha Protocol did it better.

I tried playing that game. I've logged 3 hours on it according to Steam. In those 3 hours I encountered a truly astounding number of bugs. I might give it a chance later but that lack of polish shows how much the publishers or devs cared about the finished product.

[St. Eve]

Anyone still remember Magnum p.i.? Damn good show!

Modifié par St. Eve, 27 novembre 2011 - 08:17 .

[Biotic Sage]

Terror_K wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Oh, yes... of course. I'm certainly going to LOVE watching the new Mass Effect film that'll just be like every other piece of action Hollywood dross these days, telling a story I've already seen by canonising Shepard and his choices, while Turians will probably have feathers and asari long purple hair because the director wants to change things up and it's nothing but a non-sensical, over-the-top action movie with explosion, awful dialogue and shaky camera work, etc.

Yep... being popular and shallow by selling out and going for mass appeal over actual quality and depth always makes for a far better series.

Popular does not always equal shallow.  Yes, it could turn into that, but let's hope it doesn't.  Lord of the Rings had mass appeal and the Fellowship is my favorite movie of all time.

LotR was great, yes. But based on a static book with a set canon, and not a dynamic video game that the creators specifically said didn't have a canon regarding Shepard because it was whatever you wanted it to be. They even created a bunch of supplementary content such as novels and comics that kept this in mind and were designed around it. Now they're throwing it all down the toilet just to let the dollars throw in as they sell out to create a shallow Hollywood blockbuster.

They're not making the movie for the real fans, because the fans have experienced this story already and would more likely prefer more supplementary content that adds to the existing mythos rather than rehashes something we've already experienced in a far more interactive and personal way. They're making it to appeal to the standard American moviegoing, pop-corn face-stuffing, action-loving moron. Again, it's more branching out to try and get new people in and them not seeming to care that they're alienating their existing fans who largely got into Mass Effect in the first place because it actually had some quality to it and avoided all this mainstream pandering BS that they're doing with it today. Mass Effect isn't going to be the Blade Runner, Star Wars or Aliens of this generation... it's going to be another Michael Bay's Transformers, Doom or G.I. Joe: The Rise of Cobra.

You are right about them not making it with the real fans in mind first.  Of course they want to have it appeal to moviegoers who are not versed in ME lore, since most will not be going in.  However, it doesn't have to be Transformers.  I share your concern that it will be, but I think Lord of the Rings proves that when you put some faith in your audience and focus on making a great film, a movie can have mass appeal AND not be a shallow romp of CGI, throw-away dialogue and soulless action.  Again, it could turn into the next Transformers movie, but I don't think that's what Bioware wants.  (I could be wrong, but I will not pounce on them and condemn them when the movie hasn't even been made yet).

[lobi]

TheKillerAngel wrote...
I tried playing that game. I've logged 3 hours on it according to Steam. In those 3 hours I encountered a truly astounding number of bugs. I might give it a chance later but that lack of polish shows how much the publishers or devs cared about the finished product.

I lucked out and never hit one bug in three playthroughs. Enemies disappear from an area if you reload but, I thought that was programmed to discourage reloads and promote RPG. I thought it was as good structure and storywise as Deus-ex HR. AP also had better boss fights.

jreezy wrote...

lobi wrote...

Mass effect has always been pop-culture fluff. It was always intended to be pop-culture fluff. It is stereotypical non-sense that pushes rpg further towards being stylistically more film than game.

But, Alpha Protocol did it better.

And you know this because...what exactly?

The results speak for themselves. If you cannot see it then you may like to take a course in media studies, communications or a BA in fine arts. I also never said that this was a bad thing as far as light entertainment goes.

Modifié par lobi, 27 novembre 2011 - 08:36 .

[Biotic Sage]

jreezy wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...
Yes, they have strayed from what ME1 was originally marketed as.  However, let's look at the big picture here.  The Mass Effect franchise has expanded beyond anything they had expected.  There is a live action film coming out, and the universe/story has been fleshed out more than most sci-fi film releases these days.  By making ME3 more linear, they are ensuring a great ending to what will be an iconic trilogy.  Leave the games made solely for player choice to Bethesda, Mass Effect has evolved into something else, a great sci-fi franchise and story that stands its ground without relying solely on "I get to choose my own adventure!" appeal.  I love player choice, and ME3 still has it, but Bioware knows the story they want to tell, and they are great story-tellers.  If you accept it for what it has become, then you will enjoy it as much as any other epic story set in a sci-fi universe.

You're justifying their linearity? I can't agree with that mindset.

If it's a great story, then I am completely giving them a free pass yes.  It is conditional though.  They aren't allowed to make ME3 a crap-fest of a narrative and take away player choice.  I need one or the other to enjoy my gaming experience.  If they want to have Mass Effect be Uncharted rather than The Elder Scrolls, that's fine, but it has to be as good as Uncharted in the storytelling department.

[Bryy_Miller]

Seboist wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

I just want to know how the leaker was executed? Hanging? Firing squad? Sharks?

Hopefully he's alive and well.  Thanks to him some of us were able to save our money for something better(Ninja Gaiden 3 in my case).

Did you also not play Half Life 2 because of the leak?

[Genshie]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Seboist wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

I just want to know how the leaker was executed? Hanging? Firing squad? Sharks?

Hopefully he's alive and well.  Thanks to him some of us were able to save our money for something better(Ninja Gaiden 3 in my case).

Did you also not play Half Life 2 because of the leak?

Like many other games before like Half Life 2 just because there was leak of data means nothing in terms of how good or bad the game will be. The only thing you are getting out of the leak is pure text that is already been confirmed as old and already changed in bits here and there. You can't say the game will bad solely on text. We have no context beyond text/words/script. Also the leaked script isn't suppose to be read like a book or a play script which people are treating it as such which is wrong.

[St. Eve]

greengoron89 wrote...

St. Eve wrote...

Anyone still remember Magnum p.i.? Damn good show!

Excellent show. Excellent actor. Tom Selleck's moustache is second only to Chuck Norris' beard in sheer awesomeness.

And lets not forget the rather catchy Theme Song.

[Terror_K]

111987 wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Peak 15 had a couple of routes too: quick to Benezia through the soldiers and defenses, or help Dr. Cohen, etc.. Virmire had several paths, including the option to aid Kirrahe's team. Feros had the option to help the colonists or not (most of which took you to a completely different set of areas to accomplish) and had the optional stop-off at Jeong and Dr. Baynham for the thorian gas. Several sidequests had more than two ways to resolve them, sometimes with multiple paragon and renegade ways for each (e.g. with Samesh Bhatia's wife, there are both paragon and renegade paths for both outcomes. Same with the Hanar preacher. Same with spying on Raphael Vargas on Noveria or not, etc.) All in all, I felt ME1 had far more versatility. ME2 tended to just give you a situation, run you through it the same way every time and throw a single paragon or renegade way of resolving it right at the end.

ME2 had a lot of the same things. In Zaeed's misison, you could choose to save the refinery workers or kill Vido Santiago. In Kasumi's mission, there were the option when it comes to opening the vault to break through the windows into Hock's private quarter's, or hack into the PDA and pose as Chief Roe.

While true, these are from DLC and not the vanilla game. I have always said Zaeed's mission was somewhat of an exception to the rule.

In Thane's loyalty mission, you can choose to kill Joram Talid or not, and then choose whether or not to send Kolyat to jail. You can even choose between two squadmates, Samara and Morinth.

You had the option of both a Paragon and Renegade response for both the slave broker and synthetic insights rep on Illium. You could help Gianna Parasini bust the merchant, or betray her; you can help Conrad, or send him to his death.

Perhaps ME1 had a little more versatility, but I truly don't think it was as drastic as some people make it out to be.

Yes, but those are all still binary choices. It's this way or that way, Paragon or Renegade, and that's about it. ME1 quite often had 4 or more ways to handle a situation, sidequest or mission, while ME2 generally knocked it down to two. Interrupts sometimes added more, but rarely would missing an interrupt give decent alternate options later: they were usually simply a quicker and flashier/more cinematic way of getting to the same point that waiting would also accomplish (i.e. a renegade interrupt usually gets the same general outcome as the following renegade dialogue choice if the interrupt was missed).

[Phaedon]

Mad? No, since most of them (they have hundreds of employs) don't interact with the fans enough to be mad, and that includes some of the marketing staff. It's just that they probably didn't plan a very "seamless" flow of information over the months.

If anything, take a look at the first pages to find angry people.
And I mean, angry. Screaming, sweating, swearing, cheek reddening pitchfork carrying angry.

lobi wrote...

Mass effect has always been pop-culture fluff. It was always intended to be pop-culture fluff. It is stereotypical non-sense that pushes rpg further towards being stylistically more film than game.

But, Alpha Protocol did it better.

Please, that game has dialogue that could have been better used in a 'cheesy pick-up lines' collection, and a cinematic direction between the level of KOTOR and ME1. Not that I didn't enjoy it greatly, but you are really not helping your argument by using Alpha Protocol as an example.

[Terror_K]

If ME3 actually pulls off choices and consequences well, then it could make up for the failings to do so in the past. With nowhere else to go, there's no real excuse here. There admittedly has to be a certain degree of linearity in the first two parts because the story still needs to go where it needs to go to set up the final part, and you still have to basically go from point A to B in the first and B to C in the second. But now we should be going from C to D or E or F or G or H, etc. and I get the feeling that we won't, given prior claims to decisions that really matter turning out to really not.

Again, ME3 could really illustrate our choices properly and really change things up. But given comments about this being the best place to jump in, I'm getting the feeling it won't. I'm getting the feeling there'll be more emails, more weak substitutions, more stuff being swept under the rug and more seemingly important things being trivlialised. The Council's fate will probably be relegated to under 5 minutes of content, Sur'kesh will have Wreav in place of Wrex if the latter died doing the same thing despite their contradicting policies and viewpoints and some other salarian mimicking Mordin's lines with a bit less friendly banter if he died in ME2, etc.

[Biotic Sage]

jreezy wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...
If it's a great story, then I am completely giving them a free pass yes.  It is conditional though.  They aren't allowed to make ME3 a crap-fest of a narrative and take away player choice.  I need one or the other to enjoy my gaming experience.  If they want to have Mass Effect be Uncharted rather than The Elder Scrolls, that's fine, but it has to be as good as Uncharted in the storytelling department.

I see your point but Mass Effect didn't start out as an action game with some engaging set pieces and I hope Mass Effect 3 doesn't end up as such. If I wanted to play Uncharted on my 360 I'd just buy a PS3 and do so. 

True, and I get where you're coming from wanting the best of both worlds that was promised initially.

I think we disagree in terms of our perception of the series in general.  To me, even ME1 was just an "action game with engaging set pieces," but also with "an engaging story and characters" (that part is very important and you left it out above).  In my view, ME2 improved the action part, stayed about the same on engaging set pieces (although with better graphics and a more polished presentation), and took a step back in terms of story and characters.  So really all I can hope for ME3 is improved story and characters; the leveling system, powers, and weapons for ME3 have already exceded my expectations since they are better than ME1 and ME2 combined.

As for "choices," Mass Effect "choices" have always been more "flavoring" to me, so I don't really expect too much more than that in ME3.  If they do all of the above well, then that part is irrelevant to me.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 27 novembre 2011 - 08:54 .

[alex90c]

Terror_K wrote...

111987 wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Peak 15 had a couple of routes too: quick to Benezia through the soldiers and defenses, or help Dr. Cohen, etc.. Virmire had several paths, including the option to aid Kirrahe's team. Feros had the option to help the colonists or not (most of which took you to a completely different set of areas to accomplish) and had the optional stop-off at Jeong and Dr. Baynham for the thorian gas. Several sidequests had more than two ways to resolve them, sometimes with multiple paragon and renegade ways for each (e.g. with Samesh Bhatia's wife, there are both paragon and renegade paths for both outcomes. Same with the Hanar preacher. Same with spying on Raphael Vargas on Noveria or not, etc.) All in all, I felt ME1 had far more versatility. ME2 tended to just give you a situation, run you through it the same way every time and throw a single paragon or renegade way of resolving it right at the end.

ME2 had a lot of the same things. In Zaeed's misison, you could choose to save the refinery workers or kill Vido Santiago. In Kasumi's mission, there were the option when it comes to opening the vault to break through the windows into Hock's private quarter's, or hack into the PDA and pose as Chief Roe.

While true, these are from DLC and not the vanilla game. I have always said Zaeed's mission was somewhat of an exception to the rule.

In Thane's loyalty mission, you can choose to kill Joram Talid or not, and then choose whether or not to send Kolyat to jail. You can even choose between two squadmates, Samara and Morinth.

You had the option of both a Paragon and Renegade response for both the slave broker and synthetic insights rep on Illium. You could help Gianna Parasini bust the merchant, or betray her; you can help Conrad, or send him to his death.

Perhaps ME1 had a little more versatility, but I truly don't think it was as drastic as some people make it out to be.

Yes, but those are all still binary choices. It's this way or that way, Paragon or Renegade, and that's about it. ME1 quite often had 4 or more ways to handle a situation, sidequest or mission, while ME2 generally knocked it down to two. Interrupts sometimes added more, but rarely would missing an interrupt give decent alternate options later: they were usually simply a quicker and flashier/more cinematic way of getting to the same point that waiting would also accomplish (i.e. a renegade interrupt usually gets the same general outcome as the following renegade dialogue choice if the interrupt was missed).

"destroy defences on virmire or don't"
"send enemy guards to kirrahe or deal with them yourself"
"let indoctrinated salarian out of cell or don't"
"ashley or kaidan"

yup, it's either "this way or that way" in ME1 as well.

how about just for one second you stop bashing ME2, take ME1 off of its 800ft pedestal in the sky and actually admit that ME2 actually did some things decent. ME2 didn't get a 90%+ average because it sucked now did it? i'm not denying that ME1 was a great game, but the ME2 bashing started to get old, I dunno, months ago.

[DoNotIngest]

St. Eve wrote...

greengoron89 wrote...

St. Eve wrote...

Anyone still remember Magnum p.i.? Damn good show!

Excellent show. Excellent actor. Tom Selleck's moustache is second only to Chuck Norris' beard in sheer awesomeness.

And lets not forget the rather catchy Theme Song.

Good lord... Dat stache...



Whatever this is, it is what I've been missing in my life.

[Phaedon]

"It could make up for the failings to do so in the past"

I..uh,er,what?

Of course, it is its own game? It really, really doesn't need to be enjoyed in comparison or in the same time with something else?

Anyway, mark my words. There'll be some rage come release due to the unresolved debate of having your consequences and choices be a)important on the universe, b)important on the feelings of the player.

There'll be people complaining because they couldn't choose if a specific race would survive or not, and there will be people complaining about the potential sacrifice of squadmates. As long as I am able to roleplay my own character and enjoy the story, I don't personally care about huge consequences that much. I mean, yeah, it'd be cool to decide if I have to sacrifice the volus or the elcor, but it's not as important to me as enjoying a great roleplaying tale with a great cast of characters by my side.

Just wait and see, you'll see that I'll be right in the long run.
Take a look at the Cerberus apologizers. Upon the confirmation that Cerberus are the bad guys in ME3, even they simultaneously complain about a)BioWare trying too hard to show that Cerberus is evil, even though they personally "know" that they are not, b)Claim that their "choices" have been reduced to nothing, and that BioWare doesn't understand Cerberus as much as they do.

The sheer madness is somewhat not surprising.

Modifié par Phaedon, 27 novembre 2011 - 09:03 .

[Phaedon]

alex90c wrote...
"destroy defences on virmire or don't"
"send enemy guards to kirrahe or deal with them yourself"
"let indoctrinated salarian out of cell or don't"
"ashley or kaidan"

yup, it's either "this way or that way" in ME1 as well.

how about just for one second you stop bashing ME2, take ME1 off of its 800ft pedestal in the sky and actually admit that ME2 actually did some things decent. ME2 didn't get a 90%+ average because it sucked now did it? i'm not denying that ME1 was a great game, but the ME2 bashing started to get old, I dunno, months ago.

I'd argue that the choices in the Loyalty Missions of ME2 are a bit more morally ambiguous than the choices overall in ME1 (The good folks over Extra Credits can confirm that, I think), but I am okay with "this or that" choices in both games. My character is the product of a specific combination of "this" and "that".

[ForteSJGR]

I don't mind if changes are made. I would be irate if certain quests/storylines/plot points became null and void ala KOTOR 2 as a result of the tweaking though. They better finish the game with a fine toothed comb. Hell I don't even mind if they push back the date. Although if they do push back the date, the finished product had better be better than Alpha Protocol's.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I'm fairly certain that a large portion of Bioware's...."fans" would qualify for the Angry Marines.

[shepskisaac]

ForteSJGR wrote...

I would be irate if certain quests/storylines/plot points became null and void ala KOTOR 2 as a result of the tweaking though.

Lul wut? I would be the happiest fan ever if ME franchise has as stellar writing as KOTOR 2.