186 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

Let's not call it cheating.

Let's call it "Steve."

[CptData]

IsaacShep wrote...

CptData wrote...

Trufax - it is "headcanon". I pretend to use that explanation so some of the plot holes vanish. It does work for me, it makes sense, but it's not "BW canon" and you don't need to see it the same way. It's just my interpretation.

I understand but to me, headcanon ain't good for plot holes. It's good for extra stuff, like I can headcanon my Shep & Legion played some co-op games together while bored on the Normandy during FTL flights even though we never saw that.

I don't concur. "Headcanon" -can- be used to explain stuff you never will see on screen and have no relevance to the story. However, the lack of messages sent by Shepard, the fact a lot of stuff is missing in ME2 and needs to be explained somehow means that I have to make some kind of "headcanon" to get the story working.

Which is, imo, bad writing. A story shouldn't come with moon-sized plot holes the player needs to fill with own ideas. At least not when it comes to "main plot" or "story relevant characters". That's just my opinion - and I'm a writer.

[wright1978]

Sure you can roleplay your shep as to whether he/she considers it to be cheating.
I can certainly see why ME1 LI might see it as cheating or at very least be hurt to see that Shep has moved on.

[Gespenst]

jeweledleah wrote...
apparently Shepard had enough time to find those folks that are standingbehind him/her.  but they didn't have time to contact their lover?  its even worse if you show up with Garrus, so you had time to find Garrus
(who dropped out of site, no less)  but not your lover and/or fellow soldier?  seriously?

That's because we were sent a dosier on Garrus (even though we didn't know it at the time) and have no idea where the VS is. The people who know won't tell us. And the VS knows that. It's not like they don't know they're working undercover. Oh? I was a black ops agent? I had no idea!

Modifié par Gespenst, 28 novembre 2011 - 03:19 .

[android654]

@CptData

Totally agree, they've spent time building on this relationship aspect of the game but didn't give it the attention it deserved in order for it to make sense. One of your first dialogue options is, "I want to contact them, if they knew I was alive they'd cone for me." yet there's no effort to find them, and with the exception of Garrus, who went into hiding, there's nothing really in place that makes finding them impossible.

[shepskisaac]

CptData wrote...

I don't concur. "Headcanon" -can- be used to explain stuff you never will see on screen and have no relevance to the story. However, the lack of messages sent by Shepard, the fact a lot of stuff is missing in ME2 and needs to be explained somehow means that I have to make some kind of "headcanon" to get the story working.

Which is, imo, bad writing. A story shouldn't come with moon-sized plot holes the player needs to fill with own ideas. At least not when it comes to "main plot" or "story relevant characters". That's just my opinion - and I'm a writer.

Urhm, that was my point. Not sure what part of my post you didn't concur xD

[CptData]

IsaacShep wrote...

CptData wrote...

I don't concur. "Headcanon" -can- be used to explain stuff you never will see on screen and have no relevance to the story. However, the lack of messages sent by Shepard, the fact a lot of stuff is missing in ME2 and needs to be explained somehow means that I have to make some kind of "headcanon" to get the story working.

Which is, imo, bad writing. A story shouldn't come with moon-sized plot holes the player needs to fill with own ideas. At least not when it comes to "main plot" or "story relevant characters". That's just my opinion - and I'm a writer.

Urhm, that was my point. Not sure what part of my post you didn't concur xD

Just the part that "headcanon" can be used to fill plot holes relevant to the story and those no one cares (like Shepard playing co-op games with Legion). I concur with the rest

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Let's not call it cheating.

Let's call it "Steve."

Steving?

[syllogi]

Even though I am faithful on all saves, I will face palm if they make Kaidan or Ashley use the term "cheating" to describe moving on to another LI. Liara, if you reunited with her in LotSB, would have a good case, but K/A, who we assume are still the people we met in ME1, would be looking at the situation from a very different point of view.

The VS didn't want anything to do with Shepard, after learning they were with Cerberus. I personally think they had a very good point, especially since they're not given an explanation for Shepard's actions, but it doesn't matter what I think, this is how the writers disposed of them. They were written out of ME2 badly, and now they should at least get to have the dignity of being adult about the situation in ME3.

[Gespenst]

So... if you're romancing Ashley you get this e-mail:

Ash wrote...

Subject: Hey there.

Shepard-

I'm sorry for what I said back on Horizon. When I lost you two years ago, it tore me up. I prayed for you every day. I read a lot of Tennyson, thinking about you, just like I did when my dad passed. And then you came back, and it was like my prayers were answered. But I'm not who I was then, and neither are you.

I don't know what's true anymore. Part of me can't believe it's really you. I keep going back to that night before Ilos, our night... I haven't let myself think about those memories in over a year.

I wouldn't have expected you to work for Cerberus, but I know why they sent you to Horizon. I saw how many people were lost there, and if anyone can stop the Collectors, you can. I can't go where you're going, but I can wish you luck.

Just stay alive out there... Skipper. I don't know what the future holds, but I can't lose you a second time.

--Ash

Death closes all: but something ere the end
Some work of noble note, may yet be done,
Not unbecoming men that strove with Gods.

Aww, isn't that nice? I especially liked it when she called Shep skipper...

If you're not romancing her you get bupkis.

She balls me out for BS reasons, won't listen then ****s off for the rest of the game. Screw that.

You can bet she and I are going to have words come ME3.

Modifié par Gespenst, 28 novembre 2011 - 03:34 .

[Harmless Citizen]

Seriously. I blame BW. There's no real reason for platonic Shep to get nothing after the verbal hoslapping endured on Horizon.

[syllogi]

Random Nobody wrote...

Seriously. I blame BW. There's no real reason for platonic Shep to get nothing after the verbal hoslapping endured on Horizon.

Realistically, everyone who finds out Shepard is working with Cerberus should react in such a way.  CptData's example of how he has to fill in the blanks of the main plot with his imagination is typical of how I felt for most of ME2; I have to assume that Shepard talks to Tali offscreen before recruiting her, and explains things to Garrus while he's in recovery after his first mission; otherwise, it's hard to swallow that those two just accept joining Cerberus so blithely.

I accepted that the writing sucked a long time ago, but I don't know if I'm fooling myself or not by hoping it gets better in ME3.  At this point, My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic has more consistency and follow up in its ongoing plots than the Mass Effect series does.

[Ticktank]

People these days are so impatient and petty. A sad reflection of a society thats increasingly obsessed with quick self-gratification with minimal hassle or EFFORT.

(I'll use Ashley as the example here).

"QQ she called me a traitor, time to bang a readily available squadmate"
"QQ she gave an angry look, time to bang a readily available squadmate"
"QQ she hates that I'm a member of Al'Qaeda, time to bang a readily available squadmate"

And you wonder why there are so many f'ed-up relationships, divorces and dysfunctional families.
Love is alot about tolerating (within reasonable limits) and learning about one other. It requires effort and time, and only naive teenagers and deluded fanfic readers will expect it to be smooth sailing all the way.

IMO, the fact that Ashley bothered to quickly write you a note to apologize and reaffirm her feelings for you says a lot about how much she values the relationship. Balls in Shepard's court, no doubt. But personally, if you're going to relay jump into the next pooseh just because your old love got understandably pissed (AND STILL APOLOGIZED FOR IT), my money's on you dumping your new LI as soon she calls you fat.

I bet many players were disappointed by the lack of T&A in ME2, if they stayed loyal to the VS (or even Liara). But I found the scene deeply satisfying. They've had their argument, but thats part of growing as a couple. She apologized. He didn't fall to temptation. He's heading to hell and may not come back. But he can still look at the picture and be assured that the person in it still loves him and will be waiting. And come ME3, he can claim his well deserved prize.

...if she doesn't die. Oops spoilers. LOL too bad.

Modifié par Ticktank, 28 novembre 2011 - 03:49 .

[Harmless Citizen]

And here is the inevitable "this is why society is falling apart!" argument. Was waiting for that.

And "well-deserved prize" sounds like a Taylor-level pickup line.

[Ticktank]

Random Nobody wrote...

And here is the inevitable "this is why society is falling apart!" argument. Was waiting for that.

And "well-deserved prize" sounds like a Taylor-level pickup line.

Primacy and recency effect indeed.

But thanks for your 2-cents, regardless. Yeah the word 'prize' has been forever tainted, no thanks to him...

Modifié par Ticktank, 28 novembre 2011 - 03:58 .

[Harmless Citizen]

There was no point in my addressing anything in the middle if it doesn't apply to me, now is there?

A. I never did a romance

and

B. Kaidan is dead in my main run

If Shepard is friends with the VS, there is no such follow-up. This is a fault in writing, as big a one as the dialogue options on Horizon.

[Eire Icon]

*******ME2 Spoilers***********

I'm all for people playing their own game their own way, but I cannot get my head around how people can call Shepard being with another Love interest as "Cheating"

I think the below email from Ash is quite clear, she definitely still has feelings for Shepard but she does not see them as being "Together" currently

Ashley Williams wrote...

 But I'm not who I was then, and neither are you.

I don't know what's true anymore. Part of me can't believe it's really you. I keep going back to that night before Ilos, our night... I haven't let myself think about those memories in over a year
 
..............................................
 
Just stay alive out there... Skipper. I don't know what the future holds, but I can't lose you a second time
 

I think the above email leaves the door open to a possible reconcilliation in the future, but nothing more. Those guys need to talk !

Horizon always confused me, but to be fair its a bit of an unusual situation to say the least. Ash is an emotional person and pretty much wears her heart on her sleeve so put in the situation of seeing her former love return from the dead to aid Cerberus was always going to mess with her head. Who is going to say the "Right thing" in a situation like that? Liara had first hand knowledge of the Lazarus project so I can understand how she was somewhat more prepared for Shepards reincarnation

I think it all boils down to what Shepard wants to do, and from that point of view its been done well.

Shepard may feel betrayed by Ash's unwillingness to hear him out or her perceived lack of loyalty, in which case he can move onto another LI guilt free

He may never have been that serious about her in the first place, in which case he can move on also

He may be gutted at an apparent rejection and be determined to win her back. He may still love her as if Ilos was last week

Its ultimately down to what Shepard wants. If he's deeply in love with her and goes off with someone else then while he's not cheating in the classic sense he is cheating himself. If they're different people and want other things now, then sure he can move on and find his happiness elsewhere

Different Shepards, different views, different outcomes. Roll on ME3

[Ieldra]

I don't care how people here call it, my Shepard moved on.

Unfortunately he didn't get the chance to say "It's over" to Ashley in ME2, but that will be rectified in ME3. I do not hold her reaction on Horizon against her, it is not the reason I moved on, I still like her and would like to continue to be friends with her. But the romance was a mistake. Like any mistake, you're not proud of having made it but it makes no sense to compound it by continuing a romance you don't believe in any more.

That's it.

[CptData]

I think I'm going to write a lengthy posting why I think BW kinda "f*cked" up ME2 storywise. It is not exclusively about the VS, Liara or so, but more a picture of the whole mess. Since it doesn't fit here it's going to be its own thread.

To make it short and simple: entire ME2 sufferes huge plot holes and appears to be unfinished. I had a lot of time playing it over and over again and with every playthrough I found new plot holes or stuff that's not fully explained. Overall I think ME2 got never finished but thrown on the market as soon as it worked without any major crashes and the main plot included.
I'll explain why I think so. And yes, the issues with the VS will be part of that posting.

It will take time and since I'm out for a couple of hours I won't post it next few hours.

[Ticktank]

Random Nobody wrote...

There was no point in my addressing anything in the middle if it doesn't apply to me, now is there?

A. I never did a romance

and

B. Kaidan is dead in my main run

If Shepard is friends with the VS, there is no such follow-up. This is a fault in writing, as big a one as the dialogue options on Horizon.

Fair enough, I should have stated that my argument was in the context of Shepard and the VS having a previous relationship. And even then, there's no 'correct' follow-up. For me at least, the email was enough to warrant a continuation, but not without some further dialogue first.

I do think it would have been better if they still sent Shepard an email, even if they never had a romance.

Modifié par Ticktank, 28 novembre 2011 - 04:36 .

[Aeowyn]

jeweledleah wrote...

/rant

1. Shepard IS a traitor. seeing how Shepard is working for the avowed enemy of the alliance and the council.
2. by your own admission, Tali would have been your first choice if available in ME1, so really, Horizon was just an excuse to feel better about moving on to her in ME2
3. no, technically it was not cheating in a true sense as for Ashley 2 years have passed and Horizon is set up in a way to be able to interpret it as a breakup if one so wishes. but apparently, /grumble its what bioware is calling it. not to mention - as stated above, its only been couple of weeks for Shepard, so their feelings are supposed to be a bit fresher then Ashley's.
4. Tali doesn't join Shepard immediately or without questions,its only when you meet her a second time, that you get to recruit her, after much time has passed. She had time to think about it. Tali is also not part of the military organization, her loyalty to the flotilla is purely personal.

I wish people would:
1. at least attempt to put themselves in Ashley's shoes and see how they would reacted after someone they thought was dead showed up 2 years later, perfectly alive, talking like nothing happened, personally confirming the rumors that they were alive and working for cerberus. the same organization that Ashley was sent to Horizon to INVESTIGATE IN RELATION TO COLONY KIDNAPPINGS. and lo and behold - colony gets kidnapped and oh look, Cerberus vessel is there.
2. stop romancing her just because their first choice is not available.
3. consider if this was their real life relationship, would they write off a lover after a single fight that was at least partly caused by someone else's manipulations. (TIM ADMITS setting up Horizon after you get back to the Normandy, he ADMITS spreading the rumors about Shepard for months, he proceeds to set Shepard up, again and again through the rest of the ME2)
4.  stoip saying it was one night of monkey sex.  it was a year's worth of building a relationship, because you start flirting pretty much as soon as you meet and continue through out all the events on ME1, that took about a year to conclude.  you, the player might think it was a one night of monkey sex, becasue it took you 20-30 hours to finish the game, but in game time=/=play time.  traveling between systems doesn't take couple of seconds. etc

/end rant

1. VS has partly moved on.
2. Do we actually have any confirmation that the ME timeline was a year?

Its even worse if you show up with Garrus, so you had time to find
Garrus (who dropped out of site, no less)  but not your lover and/or
fellow soldier?  seriously?

Come on Leah, really? I think both Kaidan and Ashley know that they were working on a classified mission an could not be contacted. They can't put that on Shepard. Especially when they have NO idea if Shepard tried or not and especially when they have no idea HOW Shepard came across Garrus.

Modifié par Aeowyn, 28 novembre 2011 - 05:04 .

[Ryzaki]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I don't care how people here call it, my Shepard moved on.

Same.

The VS even breathes the word cheating and my Shep is LHAO as he walks away. Yeah A. He was dead (which ended said relationship) and B. VS chewed him out when he tried to build bridges and left him with his ass hanging in the wind for Cerberus. (which killed chances of rebuilding said relationship).

Sorry but that was pretty much where he saw the relationship wasn't going anywhere and moved on to a relationship that did. And for my Shep's that didn't romance anyone in ME2 if the VS assumes they're still are in a relationship with him he'll be vastly amused. If they decide to chew him out about it he's walking away while shaking his head. The VS could at least act professional.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 novembre 2011 - 05:10 .

[shepskisaac]

Ryzaki wrote...

VS chewed him out when he tried to build bridges and left him with his ass hanging in the wind for Cerberus.

Just to be clear, he tried to build these bridges when he was partying around the galaxy for weeks without bothering to call/email VS or when he said "How ya doing VS? Yaaaawn Look how excited I am to see you again! It's been a long time dayum! Actually it wasn't haha since I was in coma and to me it feels like yesterday that I was with ya but it's a great excuse to dump you! So, we cool?"

[Ryzaki]

IsaacShep wrote...Just to be clear, he tried to build these bridges when he was partying around the galaxy for weeks without bothering to call/email VS or when he said "How ya doing VS? Yaaaawn Look how excited I am to see you again! It's been a long time dayum! Actually it wasn't haha since I was in coma and to me it feels like yesterday that I was with ya but it's a great excuse to dump you! So, we cool?"

Oh yes and how pray tell was Shep supposed to get in contact with the VS who was deep undercover? And yes partying...my Shep was running around trying to defeat the Reapers and he was "partying" riiight.

And no that's completely not what my Shep said. Maybe yours did  but mine certainly didn't say that. Mine told them what happened, said he was working with Cerberus to try to stop the human colony attacks and was pretty much told he was fooled by Cerberus as the VS stomped off. Real nice. You think your lover is being controlled by a terrorist organization and you don't even attempt to get them some help or try to tempt them to come with you so you can get him/her some help. If we're gonna play the "didn't do enough" game Shep isn't the only one who fails.

Seriously Issac if you don't see Horizon as a good enough reason for your Shep to move on fine. Whatever I'm not judging your Shep's decision to stay with them. Trying to belittle someone else's reasons though? That's kind of weak. All Sheps are different I wish people would stop shoving other Shep's personalities and beliefs on their own. It's lame regardless of who is doing the shoving.

If you think your Shep cheated? Fine he/she cheated. Mine didn't. Mine moved on. The whole definition of cheating is betrayal and deceit. My Shep was not deceitful towards Ash/Kaidan he/she didn't bother hiding her relationship from him/her and certainly wasn't two timing him/her.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 novembre 2011 - 05:24 .