16 réponses à ce sujet

[Aelius28]

I finished Origins and am now starting Awakening, but I want to play a mage who can be a primary damage-dealer in the party. One thing I noticed from having played Origins is that mages seem to be very poor damage dealers, except maybe at the beginning of the game.

There are only, like, three or four spells which do any respectable amount of damage without risking friendly fire, and most of them are low-tier spells. Winter's Grasp, Lightning, Stone Fist, and Crushing Prison.

Virtually all of the damage-dealing spells can cause friendly fire, and so are virtually useless. All throughout Origins, Morrigan had Tempest and Blizzard but I'm pretty sure I only used those spells two or three times throughout the entire game. Furthermore, most of those large AoE spells do meager damage. Tempest, for instance, only did like 8 damage per second (damage is: [(100 + SP)*0.1], at 2 second intervals) even at the very end of the game when I had the best possible equipment. My warriors and rogue did like 60 damage per hit. Morrigan couldn't do 60 damage if her life depended on it.

Fireball, Earthquake, Blizzard, Flame Blast, Cone of Cold, Shock, Walking Bomb, Death Cloud, Tempest, Blizzard, Inferno, all of these spells are utterly useless because they're liable to damage your party members anyway. And when the objective is to destroy the enemy before they destroy you, you might as well not even use those spells because the damage cancels out - if both your party and the enemy are damaged, then you're no better off than you were before you cast the spell since both combatants are down X amount of damage.

Am I missing something here, or is it truly the case that mages are only useful for CC and healing? Either that or everybody's playing on Easy/Normal difficulty where friendly fire is minimized.

Modifié par Aelius28, 29 novembre 2011 - 10:35 .

[gandanlin]

When I use AoE spells I make sure everyone is held in position out of the way of the spell. Setting the tactics to Defensive or Cautious can also help.

My mage this PT is doing upwards of 140 damage listed in her statistics for most damage done. And a spell like Petrify can be coupled with a critical hit from another player to shatter an opponent. Makes for a very quick kill, even if it is not credited to the mage.

Mages have their uses. But on Hard or Nightmare the AoE spells have to be used carefully.

[actionhero112]

Mages are the best class in the game. I'll probably get some flac for this, but tbh any higher level tactics in this game requires a mage. AW tanks are legendary, CC mages can immobilize mobs almost indefinitely with a combination of paralysis explosion, mass paralysis, blood wound, Cone of cold, Fire ball, grease, crushing prison, earthquake, mind blast and petrify. Mana Clash is the ironically the best anti magic move in the game, and destroys anything with mana.

Getting low on health? don't worry, you can heal yourself and allies, not only that, but if you really mess up, and draw way to much threat to your squishy mage, you can cast an invulnerability spell on yourself, WITHOUT deactivating your sustains! Then you can watch as mobs stupidly bashes on your invulnerable character, while your other team members destroy them.

They also have the best buffs in the game which can stack. Flaming weapons, haste, rock armor, shimmering shield, combat magic etc.

The only reason I ever go rogue is if I want some epic single target DPS. Even then I do it while double hasted with wynn and morrigan with telekinetic and flaming weapons sustains.

They just require some micro. I really don't have an issue with that though. FF is dangerous, but it only matters if you let your party member be stupid.

Also, did I mention how overpowered the Arcane warrior specialization is?

I don't care about big numbers, I just want to cut through mobs. Mages can specialize in doing a MEDIUM amount of damage, TO ALOT of targets at once, while they can do nothing in return. 

I'd talk about being a warrior, but they're next to useless in my regard. Never use them. 

Modifié par actionhero112, 30 novembre 2011 - 09:35 .

[Klidi]

I agree.  It requires more management of your party, but with a mage, fights become much easier.

The Gaxkang thing, for example. Almost didn't have a chance to hit. Sure, my mage didn't hurt him much, but he kept him immovable most of the times, and when he did manage to hurt someone, he healed them immediately. Sten, Alistair and Zev finished it without much trouble. I was almost disappointed how easy it was. <_<

[Aelius28]

I understand mages are an invaluable asset to the party, but they seem to be relegated to a support role in Dragon Age. I can make my warrior tank or deal damage; I can make my rogue ranged or melee; but I cannot make my mage a damage dealer?... Unless, of course, you count "damage to everything that moves, including party members."

Modifié par Aelius28, 01 décembre 2011 - 01:27 .

[actionhero112]

Go arcane warrior with a proper build. Go caster and use the hold command as well as the force field spell. Run Warrior in and use taunt and activate threaten. Cast Force field on him. Cast paralysis explosion/blood wound/Mass Paralysis/Earthquake on swarming mob. Cast SoC on top of warrior. run away from AoE if in range. Clear mob.

Repeat.

Look there are ways to get past FF, but you won't find them if you are committed to this notion that Mages cannot group dps on harder difficulties.

Mages can be everything in this game. They just don't single target dps as well as rogues. You can even arcane warrior Dps, if you want.

Modifié par actionhero112, 01 décembre 2011 - 01:45 .

[Aelius28]

Mages can be everything in this game. They just don't single target dps as well as rogues.

Exactly, and since their only other DPS possibility is AoE DPS, they're pretty useless unless you're content to pause the game every few seconds in combat to meticulously position the target circle so that it doesn't hit your allies (and then you have to hope your allies don't run into the circle).

Sure, we could hold position, but then the Genlock Emissary is just going to rain his spells down on us unchallenged because my melee combatants can't move forward for 30 seconds until the multitude caustic clouds of elements recede from the air.

You could argue that I could use my mage to attack the enemy mage, sure, but then you've essentially argued that I should control the entire battlefield using my mage while my melee combatants stand idly and act as a meatshield for my mage. I guess, if that's your playstyle, fine.

[actionhero112]

Look there are a bunch ways to shut down Casters from afar, and you can kill most of them outright with mana clash, which is only one talent up from spell might, which is incredibly useful. Also the genlock emissary should be attacking the Warrior, because he taunted, or be in some way incompacitated by your CC.

Come on man, you asked for dps suggestions, controlling the field with a mage is the same concept as controlling the field as any other class; you have to be committed to the course, and plan to micro that character.

If you want your characters to be immune to the dps output that your mage provides, why don't you work towards that. I've specialized in fire primal before, and built up my teams fire resistance so my characters can basically run through the fire. Again, you have to think around the problems that arise. Mages require some planning on harder difficulties. You can't expect them to auto-attack and be amazing.

Except for Arcane warriors, they can auto attack and be amazing. 

Modifié par actionhero112, 01 décembre 2011 - 02:17 .

[SpockLives]

Aelius, I have played 3 mages on Nightmare, and 2 of those were as AOE damage-dealers. My mages out dps my best warrior and rogue builds. I think you are being too afraid of friendly fire. Unlike DA2, DA:O's friendly fire will not one-shot your party. Just get your allies' resists up. Also, DA:O is a tactical game. If you aren't pausing frequently, you are going to have problems.

Maybe use an all ranged party: 3 mages and Leliana as archer or 3 mages and Shale. Enemies will die so fast that you won't ever ask "What about that Emissary?" That Emissary, and all of his allies, are dead inside 6 seconds. On Nightmare. Mages are the ultimate class in DA:O. They way outperform warriors and rogues in crowd control, survivability, and damage.

Edit: Just to add my ultimate stragegy for dps mage -- Open fight with Inferno.  When enemies charge, Fireball them back inside the Inferno.  If anyone survives, use Flame Blast.  If anyone is still alive, use Cone of Cold.  Pretty much any fight in Origins can be handled with that strategy.  If you need crowd control, try dropping a Glyph of Paralysis on top of a Glyph of Repulsion.  As you can see, none of my strategies involve giving a rat's behind about friendly fire.  Hope this helps.

Modifié par SpockLives, 01 décembre 2011 - 03:13 .

[Gallimatia]

One way is to have say Alistair gather up the enemies then use force field on him and blast away. Two mages can keep an ally permanently invulnerable which is useful if you are blasting the area it is in.

Note that force field lasts longer on higher difficulties so this
approach is better on nightmare than casual (where it's useless).

[CBGB]

In Awakening, you can play mage with extraordinary power. Take a peek at my Mage's Notebook for build ideas.


For reference, I find mages terribly strong in Origins, too. In my recent playthrough, I vastly outdid the damage of the rest of my party, despite giving them strong builds. They were solid, but an agressive mage is fearsome.

Let's see where we may have split:

Aelius28 wrote...

There are only, like, three or four spells which do any respectable amount of damage without risking friendly fire, and most of them are low-tier spells. Winter's Grasp, Lightning, Stone Fist, and Crushing Prison... Morrigan had Tempest and Blizzard but I'm pretty sure I only used those
spells two or three times throughout the entire game. Furthermore, most
of those large AoE spells do meager damage..

Of those single-target spells, I use only Winter's Grasp. Lightning does no more damage than the starter Arcane Bolt, and Stone Fist is even worse, thanks to the prevalance of nature resistance. I don't use Crushing Prison, due to the high resist rate.

Like you, I tend not to use the AoE spells often. But I do in places where the enemy can't reach me (say, across a bridge with a Glyph of Repulsion), and they wipe them out. With Tempest and Blizzard, you've nearly reached the Storm of the Century combo, a giant bomb. I avoid it because it's so powerful, it feels like an exploit.

Virtually all of the damage-dealing spells
can cause friendly fire, and so are virtually useless...
Fireball, Earthquake, Blizzard, Flame Blast, Cone of Cold,
Shock, Walking Bomb, Death Cloud, Tempest, Blizzard, Inferno, all of
these spells are utterly useless because they're liable to damage your
party members anyway... you're no better off than you were before you cast the
spell since both combatants are down X amount of damage.

If you play on a difficulty higher than normal, then your party does suffer as much as the enemy from an applicable spell. At normal, I don't worry about it. Even Walking Bomb. I'm ready with a Group Heal, but more often than not, by the time I cast, the enemy is dead and my party is making snappy comments.

At higher difficulties, as you state, the damage can endanger your companions. But I still carefully use all of the above spells (except Death Cloud, which I don't find worthwhile). I use Cone of Cold like mad, almost whenever it's up, positioning myself so the rest of the party isn't hit. I then get off both Flame Blast and Shock on the same targets before the hold wears off.

Fireball is my opener as often as not, and it moves faster than anyone in my party can run save possibly the Mabari hound, so only the enemy  gets caught.

On Hard and Nightmare, I use Walking Bomb and especially Virulent Walking Bomb more carefully. They're great on bunched archers. Mana Clash remains embarrassingly strong against enemy spellcasters.


In Awakening, mages go from being powerful to insane, and you can choose whether you prefer a caster or an Arcane Warrior build.

Modifié par CBGB, 02 décembre 2011 - 07:03 .

[ProjectCaddyGuy]

Man, maybe I have the oddball build then. I actually run 3 Mages and a tank through Origins. My PC is damage dealing mage, with some heals. (The perks/specials are Arcane warrior/Spirit Healer) Morrigan at this point is damage dealer with a few heals, Shapeshifter/Spirit Healer, and Wynne is Spirit Healer/Shapeshifter, my primary healer, but I've given her enough Primal casting to dish out some damage. My tank, is Shale. I'm running him with the spirit shard armor, because of magic resistance, and I don't hesitate to blow him up too. All 3 mages are set to heal if he drops below 75%. Morrigan maintains fire weapons, my PC maintains cold weapons, and Wynne really focuses on healing. I'm aware that I lack a rogue, and am missing out on a TON of chests, but overall, in battles... I haven't been able to touch the damage my 3 do. Shale's a heck of a tank too. With his stats going STR, CON, and tidbits of DEX and WIL, he dishes out solid punishment. My primary techniques, is blow everything up with a fireball, often including Shale, then charge in with Morrigan and my PC, and use Frost Cone to freeze mobs, Shale gets up quick enough, has easy access, etc. Wynne has never fallen in battle, My PC has once since this team got together, and Morrigan has gone down a couple of times. I do miss out on all chests, but I trust that there are no quests I cant finish without a rogue.


(Edit)  Oh yes, hearing Shale refer to Wynne as the Elder Mage (or Fussy mage now and then) and having him call Morrigan Swamp Witch all the time is entertaining.  Yes, my party bickers non-stop.

Modifié par ProjectCaddyGuy, 03 décembre 2011 - 09:46 .

[Zaxares]

It is undeniably true that Mages in Dragon Age function better as healers or as crowd control. While spells like Cone of Cold or Fireball can still cause good damage (and havoc) to the enemy, they aren't quite the kind of blasters or nukers that players might have come to expect from other fantasy games, where they can single-handedly wipe out entire enemy groups all by themselves.

The only time I ever used the spells Blizzard/Inferno/Tempest/Death Cloud, for instance, was during the fight with the Broodmother, where I simply flagged all my party members to the back of the room, then cast all the spells at the immobile Broodmother and watched her burn/freeze/zap to death.

(I also accidentally activated Storm of the Century and then had to skeddadle even further back into the corner to avoid taking damage from my own spells. XD)

[Thing The Wiz]

Mages can be used in many ways to destroy the opposition. Use your AoE spells to wear down the enemies at a distance, keeping your party members close to you. As the enemies approach, hamper them with Grease and Fireball, Mass Paralysis etc (you other party members can keep hitting them with ranged weapons); boost your impact with Spell Wisp and more importantly Spell Might. Using combos like Storm of the Century can totally wipe out a lot of the opposition from a distance. Emmissaries drop dead to Mana Clash..
The list is endless - don't be afraid to experiment

[Neven Severstahl]

CBGB wrote...

Fireball is my opener as often as not, and it moves faster than anyone in my party can run save possibly the Mabari hound, so only the enemy  gets caught.

Mana Clash remains embarrassingly strong against enemy spellcasters.

In Awakening, mages go from being powerful to insane, and you can choose whether you prefer a caster or an Arcane Warrior build.

Haha, same here. Fireball provides a "Surprise, muthaf**kers!" opening to fights. By the time the disoriented enemy mob is on their feet, your party's all over them. Extremely effective.

Spell Might + Mana Clash is extraordinarily powerful. Anders was one-shotting enemy mages/desire demons for me with ease (including that 3rd disciple general in Amaranthine).

Oh, and Hand of Winter is awesome. Crowd control minus friendly fire = WIN.

Thing The Wiz wrote...

Mages can be used in many ways to
destroy the opposition. Use your AoE spells to wear down the enemies at a
distance, keeping your party members close to you. As the enemies
approach, hamper them with Grease and Fireball, Mass Paralysis etc (you
other party members can keep hitting them with ranged weapons); boost
your impact with Spell Wisp and more importantly Spell Might. Using
combos like Storm of the Century can totally wipe out a lot of the
opposition from a distance. Emmissaries drop dead to Mana Clash..
The list is endless - don't be afraid to experiment

Exactly. Using AoE spells can weaken enemies, even if they may not always kill them outright. Stay at a distance, cast Inferno/Tempest/Death Cloud as far as you can, then Blizzard a little closer, and make the enemies come to you. It softens them up for your warriors and backstabbers.

Crowd control & healing sound passive & unglamorous, but they are deceptively vital to the functioning of the party. I think of mages as defensive midfielders - they do all the dirty work without getting plaudits for it, while the devastating, damage-dealing warriors (strikers) grab all the attention.

Modifié par Neven Severstahl, 27 décembre 2011 - 05:47 .

[Bjond]

There are several ways you can make mage AE/dps pay off.

• Lock party in place and unload until stuff reaches you.  This is the classic method.
• Charge and use "friendly safe" AE: blood wound, sleep, stinging swarm, etc..
• Bomb the hell out of your own group.

I just finished a run where I did the last method.  It was a lot of fun.  Check the other post for some details on how to build a party that doesn't mind getting blown up.

[ImAnElfMofos!]

The problem of mages are AOE spells that could produce friendly fire. And a mod that could help you with that is http://www.nexusmods...nage/mods/483/?(Spell Shaping)