184 réponses à ce sujet

[Someone With Mass]

I personally think Bethesda allows too much freedom.

There are even moments in Fallout New Vegas where you can make it impossible for you to complete the story because of it.

[Tonymac]

Well, I think that the suicide mission in idea was a good thing. Plot armor sucks - for any and all characters, even our Hero, Shepard. I think that Mac Walters had the right idea - even though it made for some very difficult circumstances in ME3. With Mordin dead, how can we rescue Krogan Females, etc? It doubles their work as writers and producers, needing fill in plots and characters for people we lost on the SM.

Personally, I hated seeing people die on the SM. I had it happen a few times - and even with Mordin. I did not understand the mechanics of the game, and lost Mordin a few times as well as Jack. Seeing empty spots on the Normandy made my heart sink. I let them down. On the up-side, I had a lot of help from Pacifen and Occam's Razor with that lovely flow chart they made so that I could understand the mechanics of the 'hold the line' deal (or is it, ordeal?).

I believe that Mac made the right call, though. They added complexity, sure - but thats the spice of life. The SM success required us to be prepared - or suffer the consequences. I think that those consequences should carry over into ME3.

[Alex_SM]

I have not yet saw any major plot aspect in a Bioware game influenced by fan feedback. So there's no reason why fan feedback should have altered their storyline.

It's easy:

->When things are correctly tied, everything makes sense and you have an actual sense of progressing (Lord of the Rings trilogy, for example). 

->When they are not you could have 3 individually enjoyable products, but they are most likely to not make sense together (for example the Transformers trilogy). 

Mass Effect saga now looks closer to the latter than to the first one. 

When you're concept is "decisions can change the story", then you have to be very careful managing those decisions and their consequences. Leaving the last chapter, where everything is gonna happen, unwritten until the end it's a guarantee of not being able to fulfill what was promised. 

It not that they should have three scripts 100% done at the beginning, but (for example) they should know how killing/releasing the Rachni Queen would affect the ending. You can't just ignore the decision, and have the Rachni Queen at the end no matter what. That's poor writing. It's not evolving or anything like that, just poor writing. 

I used the Lost example, because at the end nothing made any sense. Not that I really cared, because I was sure it was impossible to tie that amount of chaotic stories, but this time I care about, and things don't look good. 

Modifié par Alex_SM, 30 novembre 2011 - 04:17 .

[ZLurps]

Alex_SM wrote...

* snip *

I used the Lost example, because at the end nothing made any sense. Not that I really cared, because I was sure it was impossible to tie that amount of chaotic stories, but this time I care about, and things don't look good. 

I haven't read any leaked stuff so I'm going just with a gut feeling and some thoughts here, but I think there is a good chance that ME3 will be a great game.

One reason for my optimism is that they have learned from the process of creating ME2 (that I don't think was easy for them at all). Mac W. and the team may have different kind of approach for ME3 now.

Then even Mac mentions (at least in original OXM article) that many writers would like to do something different for a while at least, there is the things that Mass Effect is BioWare / EA owned intellectual property. Star Wars and AD&D games they have done sure have made money for them, but they have needed to pay roaylties for the owners of original IP. With ME franchise they keep the money from games, novels, comics etc.
I think that gives them a huge motive to make last part of the trilogy something memorable in a good way, because then they can expect better return for investments in games setting in the same universe in the future.

I also think that for gaming companies like BioWare it's far more important to maintain their reputation than for those that operate in media like television.

Modifié par ZLurps, 30 novembre 2011 - 05:58 .

[Alex_SM]

I'm not saying the ending could be a mess because they don't care, but because they may not be able to close in a good way all the paths they opened in the previous two games.  Because there was no plan. You can't make a trilogy without a plan, at least not a good coherent one. 

Being tired and wanting to move on doesn't sound good to me. I'm afraid it means "we rushed it so we could leave the sooner the better".

Also knowing previous EA franchises doesn't help. They tend to be just mediocre games after mediocre games (after a good starting game).

I'll probably be much happier without EAs involvement.

Modifié par Alex_SM, 30 novembre 2011 - 06:06 .

[Sgt Stryker]

Alex_SM wrote...

It's easy:

->When things are correctly tied, everything makes sense and you have an actual sense of progressing (Lord of the Rings trilogy, for example). 

->When they are not you could have 3 individually enjoyable products, but they are most likely to not make sense together (for example the Transformers trilogy). 

Mass Effect saga now looks closer to the latter than to the first one. 

Part of the reason the Lord of the Rings films were successful was the fact that all the filming was essentially done simultaneously. Now, obviously the nature of the video game industry prevents a similar approach from working for the ME trilogy, but at the very least they should have outlined all the major decisions and how they would influence the story across all 3 entries, the moment they knew that they were making a trilogy of games with carryover saves.

[Alex_SM]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Part of the reason the Lord of the Rings films were successful was the fact that all the filming was essentially done simultaneously. Now, obviously the nature of the video game industry prevents a similar approach from working for the ME trilogy

I was talking more about the writing of the story than the making of the movies. It's hard to find memorable sagas (where the main story is continued through some books/movies/whatever) made without a plan. Even some very long sagas (like the Wheel of Time, 14 books) had a detailed plan of what was going to happen in following books (and it made possible to end the saga after the death of the author, using his notes and his story outline). 

 
but at the very least they should have outlined all the major decisions and how they would influence the story across all 3 entries, the moment they knew that they were making a trilogy of games with carryover saves.

This is exactly what I mean. 

[ZLurps]

Alex_SM wrote...

I'm not saying the ending could be a mess because they don't care, but because they may not be able to close in a good way all the paths they opened in the previous two games.  Because there was no plan. You can't make a trilogy without a plan, at least not a good coherent one. 

Being tired and wanting to move on doesn't sound good to me. I'm afraid it means "we rushed it so we could leave the sooner the better".

I think that Mac is so open about how they created a monster with SM ending is a very positive sign. And even Mac and at least some people in the writing team are tired they have now more experience than what they had when they started working with ME2.

Also, they don't need to start from scratch, I think it Drew K. made some sort of outline for the whole trilogy and at this point Mac and co. could use what they have analysed from ME and ME2 and try to find out some sort of middle ground.

Alex_SM wrote...
Also knowing previous EA franchises doesn't help. They tend to be just mediocre games after mediocre games (after a good starting game).

I'll probably be much happier without EAs involvement.

Really difficult to comment because I don't know how much budget they would have without EA and I don't know the terms of the BioWare / EA deal (ME was developed before EA deal IIRC) but I think there are lot of people out there who BioWare logo in the beginning of the game means a lot.
That said, yeah, EA has certain kind of reputation.

Edit: Typos.

Modifié par ZLurps, 30 novembre 2011 - 06:37 .

[Alex_SM]

Also if DA2 never happened I would be much happier. That game makes me realize Bioware was just "another one" in the hands of EA, instead a special one.

[ZLurps]

Alex_SM wrote...

Also if DA2 never happened I would be much happier. That game makes me realize Bioware was just "another one" in the hands of EA, instead a special one.

Uh, that I forgot... I have heard about that one. Haven't played any Dragon Age games but it's mostly because I played original SSI Gold box games on C64 back in the day, played actual second edition AD&D RPG and... well, I really enjoyed Baldurs Gate series but then... excluding the Witcher, I'm sort of allergig to all kind of swords and magic settings.

[Obadiah]

The Reaper threat seemed so existential in ME1, it would probably have been a better idea to have each game focus on a different Shepard generation, rather that the same Shepard. That way, each of the stories would make perfect sense when played on their own.

Need a dark plot for ME2? No problem - ME2 would star ME1 Shep's lil cus' that fell in with the wrong (or right, according to some of you) Cerberus crowd.

Suicide mission in ME2? No problem - ME3 would star ME2 Shep's nephew/niece.

Hmm... would have been a better way to explain all the tech/char changes from ME1 to ME2 as well.

Modifié par Obadiah, 30 novembre 2011 - 07:31 .

[onelifecrisis]

Mei Mei wrote...

Alex_SM wrote...
This starts to look like Lost. Written on the fly, with writers having no idea about how to end it until the started with the last season, and most fans disappointed. 

It is what it is. If it looks like something else to you, then that is your perspective. To me is looks like a normal process that occurs in the real world workplace.

Which is fine, as long as you don't claim otherwise.

BW: "ME was planned as a trilogy from the start."

D'oh!

BW: "In ME3 we will be able to diverge the story based on previous player decisions."

D'oh!

[Yuoaman]

Alex_SM wrote...

Also if DA2 never happened I would be much happier. That game makes me realize Bioware was just "another one" in the hands of EA, instead a special one.

That's another "Your Mileage May Vary" issue - I personallly really enjoyed DA2; I liked the fact that it was a far more personal story than DA:O, but I recognize that it suffered from quite a bit of repetition. But that's a flaw I can live with.

[Someone With Mass]

Yuoaman wrote...

That's another "Your Mileage May Vary" issue - I personallly really enjoyed DA2; I liked the fact that it was a far more personal story than DA:O, but I recognize that it suffered from quite a bit of repetition. But that's a flaw I can live with.

I've heard that the characters were pretty good, and that's pretty much all I want in a BioWare game.

Besides, it's not like it's the end of the company because they make one mediocre game or that it's their standard all of the sudden, which many people apparently believes for some idiotic reason.

[chris2365]

I think that as a standalone product, ME2 was incredible. If you look at the trilogy, it maybe wasn't the best idea. The fact that they made so many new characters in ME2 creates a problem. Now, every fanboy and fangirl want's their favorite character to have a massive role in game. This is problamatic since almost everybody can die in the trilogy. So now, Bioware has to please so many fan groups, that there will probably be some characters who get less of an apperance than they deserve. Other characters will get bigger roles simply because they are more popular ( just look at what Chris Pristley said about Tali in ME3). Don't forget that this is Bioware's first trilogy. Nothing will be perfect

However, if anybody can pull this off, it's Bioware. I have faith in them.

[Kusy]

Someone With Mass wrote...
There are even moments in Fallout New Vegas where you can make it impossible for you to complete the story because of it.

Morrowind allowed you to kill anyone and anything. If you killed an NPC that was essential to the plot a message was shown telling you that you can no longer finish the main quest and asking if you want to keep playing or reload from your last save.

[Travie]

All will be forgiven if we see tali's face and its exactly what I dreamed it to be.

Get on it Bioware!

[HiroVoid]

Personally, this is my problem with the import system at the moment more than anything. Originally, it was supposed to be about 'Hey. Make the choices you want, and then you can see how they come to effect and differ in the sequel.' Instead, it's more of a case of 'Okay. We want to do this, but since we have to import this save, it'll cost too many resources to import, so we're just not really going to give you any choice, or we'll just make that choice meaningless.  We could probably only do something like that in a single story game.'

I don't know why anyone would give flak to Walter's for this though. All he did was state a very real concern and flaw in the implementation of this system. I loved the suicide mission personally(though I agree the plot as a whole really didn't do much for the ME series), but it's pretty bad when a person has to say 'Yeah. We should have given the players less choice.' just simply because they have to import the save.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 30 novembre 2011 - 09:34 .

[chris2365]

HiroVoid wrote...

Personally, this is my problem with the import system at the moment more than anything. Originally, it was supposed to be about 'Hey. Make the choices you want, and then you can see how they come to effect and differ in the sequel.' Instead, it's more of a case of 'Okay. We want to do this, but since we have to import this save, it'll cost too many resources to import, so we're just not really going to give you any choice, or we'll just make that choice meaningless.  We could probably only do something like that in a single story game.'

I don't know why anyone would give flak to Walter's for this though. All he did was state a very real concern and flaw in the implementation of this system. I loved the suicide mission personally(though I agree the plot as a whole really didn't do much for the ME series), but it's pretty bad when a person has to say 'Yeah. We should have given the players less choice.' just simply because they have to import the save.

I agree. I hate it when devs can't accomplish what they want simply because it will cost too much

[Yuoaman]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Yuoaman wrote...

That's another "Your Mileage May Vary" issue - I personallly really enjoyed DA2; I liked the fact that it was a far more personal story than DA:O, but I recognize that it suffered from quite a bit of repetition. But that's a flaw I can live with.

I've heard that the characters were pretty good, and that's pretty much all I want in a BioWare game.

Besides, it's not like it's the end of the company because they make one mediocre game or that it's their standard all of the sudden, which many people apparently believes for some idiotic reason.

This, one game that many feel isn't up to the company's standards will not ruin the company.

And ME2 did have its problems, but so did ME1.

[HiroVoid]

chris2365 wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Personally, this is my problem with the import system at the moment more than anything. Originally, it was supposed to be about 'Hey. Make the choices you want, and then you can see how they come to effect and differ in the sequel.' Instead, it's more of a case of 'Okay. We want to do this, but since we have to import this save, it'll cost too many resources to import, so we're just not really going to give you any choice, or we'll just make that choice meaningless.  We could probably only do something like that in a single story game.'

I don't know why anyone would give flak to Walter's for this though. All he did was state a very real concern and flaw in the implementation of this system. I loved the suicide mission personally(though I agree the plot as a whole really didn't do much for the ME series), but it's pretty bad when a person has to say 'Yeah. We should have given the players less choice.' just simply because they have to import the save.

I agree. I hate it when devs can't accomplish what they want simply because it will cost too much

Well, I can understand cost being an obvious factor.  I just think it's an example of how a system they thought would work well ended up having too many variables and resources needed to implement it well.  This is probably more obvious in DA2 where you get to make many more choices in DAO where they obviously didn't have the import system in mind.  The most obvious is a choice near the end of DAO which since you're given a choice means that every sequel is going to either ignore that choice, make it meaningless, or come up with a contrived reason to have one or the other happen(I don't want to point it out since this isn't a DA forum, but people who've played it should know what I'm talking about).  When they created DA2, they had the import system on mind which also means they went in not giving the character as much freedom simply because they don't want to have to worry as much about imports.

[Terror_K]

I think part of the problem too is this whole "each game stands on its own" way they've gone about it too. ME2 was too far removed from ME1 and they spent all this time setting up new characters and situations, and making sure the new player wasn't lost by making them comfortable, etc. when it should have been a proper follow-up that assumed that everybody getting into it had played the original and that the story followed up after it properly as well. Instead of being focused on carrying on old threads and moving the story forward, ME2 wasted time setting up far too many whole new ones and adding more complexity that mostly didn't even relate to the original game at all. Had ME2 been more focused and really built more on the original while also not being afraid to be an ACTUAL second part of an ACTUAL trilogy instead of a loose sequel with a few connections here and there, I couldn't help but feel that we'd have far more satisfying follow-ups to the likes of the fate of The Council, the VS and Wrex, etc.

[Sgt Stryker]

@Terror_K,

While that's definitely a noble idea, how would one go about selling that to new fans of the series? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for retaining the fans who were there since Day 1, but it's also necessary to bring in new fans (read: new sales). How would one accomplish both?