131 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

Everwarden wrote...

Rojahar wrote...

When reviewers hate on DA2, it comes as very "Hey, look at me! I hate DA2 just like a lot of people! I'm in-touch with gamers like a good reviewer should be! Oh, and I'm a cool kid too!" but then again I think a lot of people around here hate on DA2 with as much hyperbole as they do just because it's the gamer-hipster thing to do.

I hated on DA2 before it was cool. 

It was cool before release already.

[FedericoV]

Lord Gremlin wrote...
My story is opposite of yours, OP. It took me some time to actually realize how bad (in MY opinion) DA2 was. Initially it was sort of... Shock maybe? You know, you anticipate the game, you loved previous one, it's hard to finally believe it's that bad.

You don't know how much simpathy I feel for you. DA2 is the most divisive gaming experience I've ever had. It's really incredible how much I liked certain things and how much I hated others and how everything has fallen apart (even the things I liked) during the last act and with the culmination of the ending. It has taken me 5 months before  I was able to touch another RPG. I was completely disinterested and detached from the genre itself after I've finished it. It's really strange because I know I played tons of games that are really worst than DA2 and I had not the same reaction.

But that's it nonetheless... since I'm a CRPG addict sometimes I joked about the fact that DA2 was my 12 step program... fortunately it failed .

Modifié par FedericoV, 30 novembre 2011 - 04:28 .

[FedericoV]

AlexXIV wrote...

It was cool before release already.

Yep, there was a certain hate bandwagon that has choosen to take DA2 as the symbol of everything that is wrong in the gaming business. Let's just say that a part of the community has finally divorced from Bioware. It was a troubled relationship since the consolle shift and the EA-merge made thing worst. DA2 was just the last straw and the game wasn't only judged on his merit by a part of the fanbase.

The Metacritic user score was allready destroyed with 100 review after 1 day. I was one of the few who was supportive and open toward the game before release and it was really hard to express an opinion and have a rational dialogue about the feature of the game. Everything looked ideologic before release.

But I believe that the above is Bioware fault too. They have not handled well marketing and comunication. The marketing was loud, stupid and insulting. Any time I think of Silvermann "awesome and button combined" performance I loose 1 point of IQ. The communication was poor and not honest if not on Gaider/Woo part.

Communication and marketing make all the difference in the world. TW2 gameplay is way dumber and actiony than anything DA2 has ever done, if you look at TW1 is incredibly oriented toward consoles (it plays better with an Xbox controller), but it was all good and fine since CD Red understand his fanbase and know how to communicate with them and market his games to them. There are even fans who thanks them for patches (that they have the boldness to call "enhanced version") and I really admire them for their smartness.

Modifié par FedericoV, 30 novembre 2011 - 04:46 .

[Feanor_II]

Arius23 wrote...

Was DA2 really that big of a disappointment?

For me yes, it was.

Now I'm playing "The Witcher 2" and oh........ If I had to compare them.....

[AlexXIV]

FedericoV wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

It was cool before release already.

Yep, there was a certain hate bandwagon that has choosen to take DA2 as the symbol of everything that is wrong in the gaming business. Let's just say that a part of the community has finally divorced from Bioware. It was a troubled relationship since the consolle shift and the EA-merge made thing worst. DA2 was just the last straw and the game wasn't only judged on his merit by a part of the fanbase.

The Metacritic user score was allready destroyed with 100 review after 1 day. I was one of the few who was supportive and open toward the game before release and it was really hard to express an opinion and have a rational dialogue about the feature of the game. Everything looked ideologic before release.

But I believe that the above is Bioware fault too. They have not handled well marketing and comunication. The marketing was loud, stupid and insulting. Any time I think of Silvermann "awesome and button combined" performance I loose 1 point of IQ. The communication was poor and not honest if not on Gaider/Woo part.

Communication and marketing make all the difference in the world. TW2 gameplay is way dumber and actiony than anything DA2 has ever done, if you look at TW1 is incredibly oriented toward consoles (it plays better with an Xbox controller), but it was all good and fine since CD Red understand his fanbase and know how to communicate with them and market his games to them. There are even fans who thanks them for patches (that they have the boldness to call "enhanced version") and I really admire them for their smartness.

TW2 was an utter disappointment for me. Probably even more than DA2. At least DA2 I think I played 3 times. After playing TW2 I threw it from my HD and never looked back. CDP screwed especially the last Chapter, much like Bioware did with their last Chapter of DA2. Funny coincidence there. Or maybe a sign of the pressure in the business. But both companies did not do themselves a favor imo.

The marketing was probably pretty bad. Simply because the game they advertised wasn't DA2. It was something different about a hero that changes the world and shapes the world around him with player choice. Instead DA2 was the Hawke family drama. Featuring a, for the most part, help- and clueless hero.

Tbh my first playthrough wasn't all bad. I still thought it was a pretty good game. It took 2 more playthroughs to really lose faith. For once I realized my inability to do things different or escape certain situations. And I realized how little it mattered if I changed my hero's character. Result is almost always the same. The only thing you can really change is Hawke's relationship to his/her companions. I love ME2 despite being streamlined, but DA2 felt even more like a tunnel run, and lacked the immersion. Hawke was just like ... not even there.

[Persephone]

Rojahar wrote...

When reviewers hate on DA2, it comes as very "Hey, look at me! I hate DA2 just like a lot of people! I'm in-touch with gamers like a good reviewer should be! Oh, and I'm a cool kid too!" but then again I think a lot of people around here hate on DA2 with as much hyperbole as they do just because it's the gamer-hipster thing to do. Whoever hates DA2 the most gets The Prize. I did think it was funny how forums generally hated DA2 while reviewers (at least initially) liked it, then the reviewers bashed the DLC - but uh-oh, people liked those. Being a sheep sure is hard. lolgamingjournalism?

Exactly this. Bandwagons, everyone loves to hop on them.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Persephone wrote...

Rojahar wrote...

When reviewers hate on DA2, it comes as very "Hey, look at me! I hate DA2 just like a lot of people! I'm in-touch with gamers like a good reviewer should be! Oh, and I'm a cool kid too!" but then again I think a lot of people around here hate on DA2 with as much hyperbole as they do just because it's the gamer-hipster thing to do. Whoever hates DA2 the most gets The Prize. I did think it was funny how forums generally hated DA2 while reviewers (at least initially) liked it, then the reviewers bashed the DLC - but uh-oh, people liked those. Being a sheep sure is hard. lolgamingjournalism?

Exactly this. Bandwagons, everyone loves to hop on them.

I really doubt that the critique has to do with hate. I think the word "hate" in this context is deleberately used to connect the critique with emotion in an attempt to render it invalid. It's not going to work. Try a less obvious trick.

[LadyJaneGrey]

...did anyone else read the second page?  Chris Holt says he loved DAII.  Individual writers, like individual players, have differing opinions.  It's not fair to lump everybody with an industry into the same mindset or category. 

[NichaelBluth]

FedericoV wrote...

You don't know how much simpathy I feel for you. DA2 is the most divisive gaming experience I've ever had. It's really incredible how much I liked certain things and how much I hated others and how everything has fallen apart (even the things I liked) during the last act and with the culmination of the ending. It has taken me 5 months before  I was able to touch another RPG. I was completely disinterested and detached from the genre itself after I've finished it. It's really strange because I know I played tons of games that are really worst than DA2 and I had not the same reaction.

But that's it nonetheless... since I'm a CRPG addict sometimes I joked about the fact that DA2 was my 12 step program... fortunately it failed .

"Divisive" is a good way to describe how I felt about DA2 as well. I thought the characters and party interaction were great, and in some cases, even better than DA:O. And, I actually preferred the look and feel of combat (on nightmare at least) to DA:O, though the spawning waves were obviously a bad move. But, the really  terrible elements, like the constantly recycled environments, made it impossible for me to ever consider DA2 to be a "good" game. It was fun, and I enjoyed a lot of it, but it was far and away from legitimately good.

What compounded DA2's negative attributes was the fact that a lot of them can be taken, in my opinion, as a harbinger for what's to come from not just Bioware but video games as a whole. Deadlines destroying quality in an effort to push out a new installment on a regular basis; the ridiculous smear campaign against the former title in the series ("Forget that DA:O was game of the year for countless people, it was trash! DA2 is more extreme!"); the creeping consolization in the form of the tactical camera removal; release day DLC that consisted of a character who was integral in understanding many elements of the plot (I've never played without Sebastian as I got the pre-order, but I believe Elthina has barely any lines without him); and then, perhaps worse of all, the glaring bias of game reviewers being exposed as they near uniformly gave DA2 glowing reviews that it didn't deserve. All of these things seem very common in the current age of video games. DA2 just exemplified them all well.

Fortunately, I enjoyed Legacy and Mark of the Assassin, and thought each were legitimately good, if not rather expensive (but the price point is a complaint I have for the DLC model as a whole as I think the expansion model was better for consumers). I hope that DA3, and perhaps future DLC, can continue to keep up the upswing in quality that was present in those DLC, and return to DA:O's excellence, or even exceed DA:O.

Modifié par NichaelBluth, 30 novembre 2011 - 05:47 .

[SilentK]

Well, it does feel a little like a bandwagon. I ran into a old friend from school at expo, he said something casually about nobody liking DAII. I replied that the thing he had mentioned as a bad was actually a high point for me because of this and that (I won't bore you with the details =) ). After that I said that for me it wasn't a problem with him not liking it but I would love to hear why he didn't. He just got quiet. I have had this happen to me a few times, when I actually ask questions as to why they did find a specific mechanic in the game problematic or so, it just gets quiet. They where happy to shot the breeze with me and thought that we should start of with something easy that everyone can agree on, the weather is bad and the game is bad, turns out I had a different opinion.

Oh well =) what matter is you yourself think and feel about something.

[Realmzmaster]

Interesting that in the very same article Chris Holt, Associate Director says he loved DA2. The exact quote is:

While we all debating the relative merits of titles like Dragon Age II (which I loved and Kat loathed) and Dead Island​ (which everyone had lukewarm feelings about), we could all pretty much agree that Homefront was a disappointment.

Two different opinions from people who work for the same magazine. A lot like the forum.

[AlexXIV]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Interesting that in the very same article Chris Holt, Associate Director says he loved DA2. The exact quote is:

While we all debating the relative merits of titles like Dragon Age II (which I loved and Kat loathed) and Dead Island​ (which everyone had lukewarm feelings about), we could all pretty much agree that Homefront was a disappointment.

Two different opinions from people who work for the same magazine. A lot like the forum.

Yeah but one mag should probably speak with one voice. Or they will have to make one p/review for every of their employees. I am pretty sure they also have their meetings where they discuss every single review, even if only one person wrote it to begin with.

[Realmzmaster]

AlexXIV wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Interesting that in the very same article Chris Holt, Associate Director says he loved DA2. The exact quote is:

While we all debating the relative merits of titles like Dragon Age II (which I loved and Kat loathed) and Dead Island​ (which everyone had lukewarm feelings about), we could all pretty much agree that Homefront was a disappointment.

Two different opinions from people who work for the same magazine. A lot like the forum.

Yeah but one mag should probably speak with one voice. Or they will have to make one p/review for every of their employees. I am pretty sure they also have their meetings where they discuss every single review, even if only one person wrote it to begin with.

Gamepro gave the DA2 4 out of 5 stars which means 80%. The review was done by Jason Wilson.Therefore if the magazine is speaking going to speak with one voice which one is it. I assume Gamepro will stand by the review.

[Isaidlunch]

I completely agree that Act 3 was rushed but why is Anders being an "irredeemable moron" used as the example? His part in it was done well and made perfect sense. If any irredeemable moron ruined the game it was Meredith and First Enchanter "Turning into a mindless Harvester should solve everything!" Orsino.

[Arthur Cousland]

While I agree with most of the people here about DA2, I've pulled off the impossible and managed to have fun with it (working on my 4th playthrough and plan at least one more).

It's unfortunate how the game suffered by being rushed out of the door (especially act 3). Hopefully DA3 won't be more of the same. As I love this franchise, I'm hoping for a rebound.

I do recall when Witch Hunt was announced as the last dlc for Origins, that the 2 year plan for Origins dlc was being ended because DA2 was coming along so nicely. If they kept supporting Origins, then that would have given the staff more time to work on DA2, and not have it released in a rushed state.

[Ramus Quaritch]

I hated on DA2 after I found out that they removed many RPG elements (a.k.a. streamlined it) such as having companions wear one set of clothes for 10 years.

[jds1bio]

Bandwagon - the same thing happened when people reviewed Resistance 3. All of a sudden, Resistance 2 ( a game with some pretty nice scores - see Metacritic) was described by almost every reviewer as "disappointing." Now people might think it's cool to say that DA2 is a turkey, but compared to turkeys of the past, DA2 is still one worth serving at the table.

[SkittlesKat96]

It was a bit of a disappointment but I think it should be noted that it didn't disappoint nearly as many people as DNF, Brink and Rage did...

But I guess it varies person to person, some of the more hardcore fans are pretty annoyed about DA 2.

[Firky]

AlexXIV wrote...
Yeah but one mag should probably speak with one voice. Or they will have to make one p/review for every of their employees. I am pretty sure they also have their meetings where they discuss every single review, even if only one person wrote it to begin with.

As a freelance reviewer for a games magazine, with 4 years of xp, I have never been to a meeting to discuss any of my reviews - or scores. There simply isn't the time or budget. In my experience, the person who gets the review is the one who knows a lot about the game/genre/series/franchise or simply the person who isn't bogged down with other stuff at the time. We have criteria for scoring, but are trusted to make an authentic decision without pressure or guidance.

Having said that, some magazines do publish multiple perspectives on a single game. These days, for 2-3 reviews per month, we tend to have one person reviewing and another providing a "perspective" or in depth look into one particular facet of the game, positive or negative, or both. 

Reviewers, and their opinions on the same game, vary wildly. Consider DAII. Playing on nightmare is completely different to playing on normal. All difficulty levels are important to consider, but the experience/enjoyment can vary greatly. People who know heaps about DA lore engage with it differently, too. It's important to look at story as a newcomer and also with understanding but, again, the experience is different. Your hardcore RPG based reviewer is looking at different things to someone who is used to a story driven style. Etc, etc, etc.

The idea that there is only one correct opinion on a game is ridiculous. Thankfully, our mag has built up a culture where readers understand that scores are a part of the bigger picture. Also, that reviewers can be celebrated for bringing their unique perspective on a game to the table, through experience, knowledge, gender, etc, etc, etc.

As long as you're understanding your audience and reflecting on your interpretation of the game, to make sure you're fairly representing your reaction and providing information, surely that's really valuable. Much more valuable that being a reviewer who is trying to legitimise every person's opinion. (Because that's impossible.)

[Arthur Cousland]

It's also important to read the whole review and not just the score.

I've enjoyed games that have had mixed reviews while there have been games that would get great reviews that I may have played once and realized that the game just isn't for me.

It's important to know what you want in a game, and look for that kind of info in the review (or even try it yourself via rent or demo). Also, the person doing the review is merely expressing their opinion, so take it as you will.

[Darth Death]

I've been waiting in anticipation for this game, watching no less than 2 of it's trailers a day. Around that time I've never played a DA game before. Initially, my main interest was DA2 for it had some aspects that reminded me of ME ( such as the dialogue wheel). I thought, "this game reminds me of ME, it may be a game I'll buy".

Importation is a feature I delight in, so naturally I got hyped to play the first game, DA:O. I really like the concept of decisions having repercussions, and how they can be imported through one game to another. I invested and played DA:O.

I was blown away. The game was a masterpiece. I was even more hyped for DA2, and rightly so, everything was looking great, so I never thought in a millions of years that DA2 would disappoint... I was horribly wrong. DA2 disappointed me more than I've realized, so much so that I'm not even going to consider purchasing DA3 due to the direction DA2 took. This isn't because I'm a hardcore gamer or me jumping on the hater bandwagon. It's me, the consumer, coming to terms what it is to play a great game and what it is to play a mediocre one. If I hadn't played DA:O, then I would've thought DA2 was a decent game, but I'm so glad that's not the case.

I'm very happy I played DA:O first, and now I know what true quality is. I also know what standards I should have for this particular series as well.

[Corto81]

DA2 is the single most disappointing game I've ever played.

They strayed away from the RPG core and did it in a lazy, money-grabbing way.
It's a poor product based on a poor concept, needlessly steeping away from a the great product and the good (if not original) concept DA:O was.

Then came along TW2 and made DA2 look like Tetris.

And Skyrim makes is look like Pacman.

...

There's a still a huge RPG market out there, and BW was probably the most respected company on that market.
They dug themselves a hole with DA2, and a big one.

I find Skyrim to be the best game I've played since the BG series.
But Origins, TW2, Morrowind, are close behind, awesome games, deep and "real", where you can see the devs set out to make a great game and make money in the process.

DA2 feels like it was make to milk money off the original, the greatness of the game be damned.

And that's why DA2, for me anyway, is an awful product that may well have killed a potentially great franchise.

[Uccio]

Persephone wrote...

Rojahar wrote...

When reviewers hate on DA2, it comes as very "Hey, look at me! I hate DA2 just like a lot of people! I'm in-touch with gamers like a good reviewer should be! Oh, and I'm a cool kid too!" but then again I think a lot of people around here hate on DA2 with as much hyperbole as they do just because it's the gamer-hipster thing to do. Whoever hates DA2 the most gets The Prize. I did think it was funny how forums generally hated DA2 while reviewers (at least initially) liked it, then the reviewers bashed the DLC - but uh-oh, people liked those. Being a sheep sure is hard. lolgamingjournalism?

Exactly this. Bandwagons, everyone loves to hop on them.

Feel free to think so. I "hated" (disliked) DA2 before I even knew this forum existed. So there was no bandwagon to hop on. I can recall the feeling when I first started DA2, I was like "wft is this???" for the graphics and then "wtf is this??" for the combat. It went downhill from there on. After the initial shock I had to go through all the other nice depressing "improvements" like no possibility to discus with companions and equip them. Ah Origins, where are thou?

The core problem with DA2 is that it could have been so much much better.

Modifié par Ukki, 01 décembre 2011 - 04:04 .

[Rafficus III]

Gamepro is just hopping on the bandwagon late. It's kind of disgusting to see sites rate the game in the eighties and three months later implement the criticism they garnered from disgruntled fans and directed it in the form of DLC review of second opinions to boost their ratings. Bad journalism, bad writing, and bad integrity. I've seen it done on Gamespot, seen it done in lesser known sites, and now Gamepro. I do cycles where I play different RPG heavy hitters like Skyrim, Dark Souls, and Origins, and then I compare it to DA2 and I realize the single main issue it has is it's premature release. If it would have been pushed back to say September no map recycles, a longer and more fluid Act 3, better wave battles as seen in the new DLC, and some pesticide sprayed for those early bugs. I harbor the same nostalgia and desire to return to DA2 as I do Origins, and if DA3 is to hit it out of they park Bioware needs to take their time like what is seen in SWTOR and ME3.