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#76
Realmzmaster

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BruddaVoodu wrote...

I saw the same thing with Neverwinter Nights 2 a few years back, an incredible game gets a fan base and a flimsy crappy sequal is made with the brand name simply to cash in on the fan base. Personally I think I'm done with Bioware. I only hope the people at CDprojekt can keep the quality rpg alive with the Witcher 2, because apparently they are a dying breed.


NWN1 was done by Bioware. NWN2 was done by Obsidian Entertainment. NWN2 was not received as well as NWN1 but it was a good game. Mask of the Betrayer the expansion to NWN2 was very good. NWN2:Storm of Zehir was not good. NWN2: Mysteries of Westgate was also not good but that was developed by Ossian Studios.

You cannot blame Bioware for NWN2.

#77
AlexXIV

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Realmzmaster wrote...

BruddaVoodu wrote...

I saw the same thing with Neverwinter Nights 2 a few years back, an incredible game gets a fan base and a flimsy crappy sequal is made with the brand name simply to cash in on the fan base. Personally I think I'm done with Bioware. I only hope the people at CDprojekt can keep the quality rpg alive with the Witcher 2, because apparently they are a dying breed.


NWN1 was done by Bioware. NWN2 was done by Obsidian Entertainment. NWN2 was not received as well as NWN1 but it was a good game. Mask of the Betrayer the expansion to NWN2 was very good. NWN2:Storm of Zehir was not good. NWN2: Mysteries of Westgate was also not good but that was developed by Ossian Studios.

You cannot blame Bioware for NWN2.

Also, I personally think NWN2 was a pretty good game. Why people didn't like it is beyond me. Once again. Just like people didn't like Planescape and Jade Empire. I have no clue why.

#78
FedericoV

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AlexXIV wrote...

Also, I personally think NWN2 was a pretty good game. Why people didn't like it is beyond me. Once again. Just like people didn't like Planescape and Jade Empire. I have no clue why.


The Vanilla campaign in NWN2 was not that great imho. But the game was not criticized because of that. Many reviewers/gamers still remembered the unfinished state of Kotor2 at release. And the state of NWN2 at release does not help to ease the impressione: glitch, bugs and bad design decision like the camera controll. Fortunately it all gotten patched within month (differently than Kotor2) but I remember the bad feeling when I first installed the game and had to download patches worth something like 1 giga. On the other hand, MoB is the best D&D game since the time of BG2. Really a great game, whith polished mechanics, a creative and evokative setting and a good storyline.  

#79
Arthur Cousland

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One part that kills me (not literally) about DA2 being rushed is the "Best Served Cold" questline.

If I'm pro mage, then why the heck am I fighting these people: the mages and templars who want to work together to remove Meredith from power? Grace's actions were just icing on the cake. It feels like there must have been some alternate scenario that was cut due to deadline issues...

I'm just hoping that DA3 doesn't have similar issues, specifically where an important section of the game is one wtf moment after another. I'd hate for Bioware's struggles with tight deadlines to mean the death of my favorite game franchise.

#80
philippe willaume

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No offense to critics writers but it critics are mainly an extension of the Marketing department, you will have exception like what Firky and the company he works for. But globally they are institutions that depends on the good will of the company they review to get a beta/finish product in due time, especially since the time to market and the completion time are now very close.

So most of the reviews are really to be taken as if the were written with pink tainted glasses.


That being said, calling the DA:2 the turkey of the year, is exactly like giving it 80% in reverse.

From those forum it is clear that, generally speaking if you had played DA:0 (like me) DA:2 was disappointing but equally people that did not played DA:0 found DA:2 good.

For me the greatest flaw of DA:2 is that it looks as if it was rushed to make the date and it feels that to many things were dropped or not exepanded. So we have a Paradoxal situation where DA:2 does improves massively on DA:0 concepts but ends up delivering to a lower standard that DA:0

Sure game mechanics are important and so are the graphics, but they are exactly what good technical base and good looking form is to actual fighting. They are just internal components of the final results and the final result is really what matters.

Just as an example, if we take anders antics the actIII behaviour should really be the behaviour if you did not complete the loyalties quests.
If you were in a relationship wit h him or if you had friendship with him, that should have opened more quests, now it does notc need to change the result ie the chantry blowing up but may be how it is blow and by whom regardless where the blame landed.
It is the same for combat, it is sleeker in DA2 but you end up being able to do fewer things so it ends up feeling more repetitive (i.e. optimal build)

#81
tmp7704

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ImoenBaby wrote...

Actually , the idea that the same magazine can declare an 80 to be one of the most disappointing games of the year is absurd.

Not really -- if the expectations for the game were it'd be another 9.5 "extraordinary, editor's choice" sort of experience like they rated DAO, then a game which lands an 8 on the 7-9 scale (which means pretty much 'mediocre') can be considered a massive disappointment alright.

Modifié par tmp7704, 03 décembre 2011 - 07:27 .


#82
Realmzmaster

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Arthur Cousland wrote...

One part that kills me (not literally) about DA2 being rushed is the "Best Served Cold" questline.

If I'm pro mage, then why the heck am I fighting these people: the mages and templars who want to work together to remove Meredith from power? Grace's actions were just icing on the cake. It feels like there must have been some alternate scenario that was cut due to deadline issues...

I'm just hoping that DA3 doesn't have similar issues, specifically where an important section of the game is one wtf moment after another. I'd hate for Bioware's struggles with tight deadlines to mean the death of my favorite game franchise.


I was pro-mage in one playthrough, but I would have no love for any group that threatenseither love interest, friends or family members. That is where Thrask and Grace cross the line. Grace was simply out for revenge and used Thrask.  i think that is the reaction that Bioware was thinking about. Because even if you are pro-mage and agree with Thrask he cannot control Grace.

#83
Marvin_Arnold

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I wasn't exactly disappointed. But this was due to the fact that I had read so much bad buzz about it that I decided to wait until its price dropped below (IIRC) $20 (or $25?) somewhere. I just didn't want to pay the same price for a game less than half as long as the original and lacking polish.

The change in direction in almost every aspect after the first installment of a franchise was, of course, an asinine decision.

The experience was more pleasant than I had expected, because my expectations were quite rock bottom at that point. Nevertheless, the rush job shows at every corner. I'm on my second playthrough (don't know if there will be a third) and it makes me sad and angry to think what could have been made out of this story with more time and more sense...

I really DO hope EA/Bioware have learnt their lesson and take their time with DA3 to deliver an experience that deserves to be the successor of DA:O...

I still feel sad for Hawke. He'd have deserved better than be a future forgotten footnote in the DA franchise.

Modifié par Marvin_Arnold, 04 décembre 2011 - 07:18 .


#84
Plaintiff

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Yeah, I'm not going to listen to anyone who thinks Anders is a moron, so...

#85
Gibb_Shepard

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Plaintiff wrote...

Yeah, I'm not going to listen to anyone who thinks Anders is a moron, so...


If i said Merrill is an elf, would you say she's a dwarf just to avoid conformity? 

#86
LPPrince

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Dragon Age 2 was a dud, I don't care what anyone says.

I say-

Go back to DAO. Take that, base a new game around it, and move it forward with good ideas and improvements, patiently and with time. No rushing, no crazy new ideas, no close to release deadlines.

Of course, this isn't solely in the control of one person or even one group of people, but we can hope.

I just want DA3 to be a DAO2 with improvements over both games(not hard to improve DA2) and feel like a fresh reincarnation of the old Baldur's Gate spiritual successor style game DAO was trying to be.

And please, the number one thing for me- DAO ART STYLE. DA2 looked terrible in most cases(opinion, of course).

Modifié par LPPrince, 05 décembre 2011 - 05:13 .


#87
Plaintiff

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Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Yeah, I'm not going to listen to anyone who thinks Anders is a moron, so...


If i said Merrill is an elf, would you say she's a dwarf just to avoid conformity? 

No, because Merrill is an elf, at least as the game defines them. Don't be retarded.

Anders is not a moron, I agree whole-heartedly with most, if not all of his actions in DA2. It's not an issue of conformity at all. There have been a dozen threads debating this issue and I'm not the only person on the forums who feels this way, not by a long shot.

If I disagree with you on any point in future, rest assured that it's because you're wrong.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 05 décembre 2011 - 04:09 .


#88
Marvin_Arnold

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Plaintiff wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Yeah, I'm not going to listen to anyone who thinks Anders is a moron, so...


If i said Merrill is an elf, would you say she's a dwarf just to avoid conformity? 

No, because Merrill is an elf, at least as the game defines them. Don't be retarded.

Anders is not a moron, I agree whole-heartedly with most, if not all of his actions in DA2. It's not an issue of conformity at all. There have been a dozen threads debating this issue and I'm not the only person on the forums who feels this way, not by a long shot.

If I disagree with you on any point in future, rest assured that it's because you're wrong.

Gibb_Shepard, never try to argue with a 14-year-old. They think different. It's the hormones.

(At least that's how he comes across with that attitude...)

Personal attack incoming, three... two... one...

Modifié par Marvin_Arnold, 05 décembre 2011 - 05:55 .


#89
Arthur Cousland

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Realmzmaster wrote...

Arthur Cousland wrote...

One part that kills me (not literally) about DA2 being rushed is the "Best Served Cold" questline.

If I'm pro mage, then why the heck am I fighting these people: the mages and templars who want to work together to remove Meredith from power? Grace's actions were just icing on the cake. It feels like there must have been some alternate scenario that was cut due to deadline issues...

I'm just hoping that DA3 doesn't have similar issues, specifically where an important section of the game is one wtf moment after another. I'd hate for Bioware's struggles with tight deadlines to mean the death of my favorite game franchise.


I was pro-mage in one playthrough, but I would have no love for any group that threatenseither love interest, friends or family members. That is where Thrask and Grace cross the line. Grace was simply out for revenge and used Thrask.  i think that is the reaction that Bioware was thinking about. Because even if you are pro-mage and agree with Thrask he cannot control Grace.


That whole questline just doesn't make sense.

Orsino asked my Hawke to look into this, and they all attack on sight, before Hawke can offer to join them.  Why wouldn't a pro-mage Hawke want to assist in bringing the mages+templars together while outsting Meredith?

The kidnapping didn't make sense either.  Why would they just assume that Hawke is against them before trying to forge an alliance of some kind?  Even afterwards, if Hawke's sibling was unharmed and Thrask and co. made a sincere apology, I'd still want the templar/mage alliance to succeed.

Then there's the thing with Decimus earlier and then Grace blaming Hawke for them being recaptured by the templars when they had nothing to do with it.  I just wish there was an option to kill Grace along with Decimus.  It would only be right that they be together, always, even as corpses in that cavern.

I just can't help thinking that if the mage+templar alliance didn't fall apart, then there's no reason for Anders to blow up the chantry, then Meredith doesn't invoke the RoA, and the aftermath afterwards doesn't occur.

It's surprising that with all of the mages that the templars made tranquil, how did they miss Grace?

#90
LPPrince

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I think the whole thing with Anders might've exacerbated people's opinions of the game, for better or worse.

You know, the whole terrorist plot line kinda gets to people if you see it that way. Others see him as a hero.

#91
LinksOcarina

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LPPrince wrote...

I think the whole thing with Anders might've exacerbated people's opinions of the game, for better or worse.

You know, the whole terrorist plot line kinda gets to people if you see it that way. Others see him as a hero.


Someone read my article...

but yeah, Gamepro doesn't even matter much anymore considering the news of it being shut down (and let's be honest, it was a bad run for the past year anyway.)


As for it being a dissapointment, I guess I am in the minority because I still think Dragon Age II is better than Origins in several ways, although comparing the two is futile to begin with. Hell, It is in my top 5 for games of the year because of the depth it actually has.

But go figure I guess. People like being popular sometimes when they make this arbitrarily stupid lists.

Arthur Cousland wrote...
That whole questline just doesn't make sense.

Orsino asked my Hawke to look into this, and they all attack on sight, before Hawke can offer to join them.  Why wouldn't a pro-mage Hawke want to assist in bringing the mages+templars together while outsting Meredith?

The kidnapping didn't make sense either.  Why would they just assume that Hawke is against them before trying to forge an alliance of some kind?  Even afterwards, if Hawke's sibling was unharmed and Thrask and co. made a sincere apology, I'd still want the templar/mage alliance to succeed.

Then there's the thing with Decimus earlier and then Grace blaming Hawke for them being recaptured by the templars when they had nothing to do with it.  I just wish there was an option to kill Grace along with Decimus.  It would only be right that they be together, always, even as corpses in that cavern.

I just can't help thinking that if the mage+templar alliance didn't fall apart, then there's no reason for Anders to blow up the chantry, then Meredith doesn't invoke the RoA, and the aftermath afterwards doesn't occur.

It's surprising that with all of the mages that the templars made tranquil, how did they miss Grace?


This one is simple really, lack of communication and constant paranoia. 

Hawke, first off, never had the chance to join in on the group because of the kidnapping, for starters. Grace didn't trust Hawke and was paranoid by rumors and actions against him from previous quests against mages. Thrask was also sacrificed by Grace before he can get order among the ranks.

And look at everyone involved in that group; Keran, Samson, Alain, and so forth. All of them have reasons to be distrustful of outsiders, considering the charged climate they were in. Since this was also an inside job between the groups it is unlikely that it was communicated to the outside world. Since Thrask was working for six years to build up alliances and form a secret underground between the two groups, he probably kept info on a need-to-know basis for everyone. Chances are, Grace was either an early participant, or a late arrival, to the group.

So between the whole group is a lack of communication, like most undergound movements have. The only way it would change is if it kept tighter tabs on Hawke, something that was obviously not done. And even if he is pro-mage, the tightening of Merediths grip basically makes people paranoid of the entire situation, making even Hawke untrusting.

And let's also remember the fact that Anders was already long gone. The alliance I could imagine didn't matter to him. Hell, you can do the Justice quest before Best Served Cold comes up. Anders made up his mind, all a part of his descent into radical thinking, so even if you had the alliance intact, the chantry being blown up would still occur.

The biggest change I bet would be the fact that some Templars would help defend the mages, making it a bigger mess to begin with. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 05 décembre 2011 - 07:27 .


#92
Gunderic

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Teddie Sage wrote...

jlmaclachlan wrote...

snfonseka wrote...

The article didn't mention all of the flaws.



TWO reasons why:

It would too long to read.

 or

Some poor person is still writing it.

:D


Okay, okay, we get it already, You hate the game. Stop rubbing it in the face of the actual people who LIKE this game. Dang!


Say what?!

#93
Realmzmaster

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Arthur Cousland wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Arthur Cousland wrote...

One part that kills me (not literally) about DA2 being rushed is the "Best Served Cold" questline.

If I'm pro mage, then why the heck am I fighting these people: the mages and templars who want to work together to remove Meredith from power? Grace's actions were just icing on the cake. It feels like there must have been some alternate scenario that was cut due to deadline issues...

I'm just hoping that DA3 doesn't have similar issues, specifically where an important section of the game is one wtf moment after another. I'd hate for Bioware's struggles with tight deadlines to mean the death of my favorite game franchise.


I was pro-mage in one playthrough, but I would have no love for any group that threatenseither love interest, friends or family members. That is where Thrask and Grace cross the line. Grace was simply out for revenge and used Thrask.  i think that is the reaction that Bioware was thinking about. Because even if you are pro-mage and agree with Thrask he cannot control Grace.


That whole questline just doesn't make sense.

Orsino asked my Hawke to look into this, and they all attack on sight, before Hawke can offer to join them.  Why wouldn't a pro-mage Hawke want to assist in bringing the mages+templars together while outsting Meredith?

The kidnapping didn't make sense either.  Why would they just assume that Hawke is against them before trying to forge an alliance of some kind?  Even afterwards, if Hawke's sibling was unharmed and Thrask and co. made a sincere apology, I'd still want the templar/mage alliance to succeed.

Then there's the thing with Decimus earlier and then Grace blaming Hawke for them being recaptured by the templars when they had nothing to do with it.  I just wish there was an option to kill Grace along with Decimus.  It would only be right that they be together, always, even as corpses in that cavern.

I just can't help thinking that if the mage+templar alliance didn't fall apart, then there's no reason for Anders to blow up the chantry, then Meredith doesn't invoke the RoA, and the aftermath afterwards doesn't occur.

It's surprising that with all of the mages that the templars made tranquil, how did they miss Grace?


Why would the mages trust a pro-mage Hawke? How would they know he/she is pro mage? If they look at your companions they would have a hard time deciding what side you fall on. Yes you travel with two apostates (Merrill and Anders), but you also travel with the Guard-Captain (Aveline who has turned in apostates), Fenris (who has no love for mages) and Sebastian (a stewart of the Chantry). Varric and Isabela are opportuntists (who  could sell both sides out, if there is coin to be made).

Even if you are pro-mage Grace bears you no love. You killed Decimus. If you helped them to escape you still left them with no food or water dooming them in Grace's mind to recapture. Grace is smart enough to play the templar's game and keep herself under control by towing the line. She stays out of Ser Alrik's way much like Bethany (if you do not take her into the Deep Roads) does.

The kidnapping gives them leverage. It places them in a better bargaining position which is what Thrask probably had in mind. Thrask did not know that Grace simply wanted to get Hawke to come so she could exact revenge.

Anders wa going to blow up the Chantry no matter what.  In his mind the Chantry is the symbol of everything that is wrong for the mages. The templars are the Chantry's army and all the policies to oppress mages come from the Chantry and their misinterperation of what the Maker meant by magic is to serve man, not be ruled by it..

#94
Wozearly

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Darth Death wrote...

I invested and played DA:O. I was blown away. The game was a masterpiece. I was even more hyped for DA2, and rightly so, everything was looking great, so I never thought in a millions of years that DA2 would disappoint... I was horribly wrong.

If I hadn't played DA:O, then I would've thought DA2 was a decent game, but I'm so glad that's not the case. I'm very happy I played DA:O first, and now I know what true quality is. I also know what standards I should have for this particular series as well.


For me, that hits the nail on the head.

DA2 would have been considered a pretty solid game if it had hit the market out of nowhere. Sure, a game with flaws and bugs and repetition, and lacking in Bioware's usual level of polish, but it would have been an interesting twist on the action-RPG genre after learning from Mass Effect.

Unfortunately, it followed DA:O, which was a truly fantastic game in the spirit of Bioware's older style of RPGs. Not only was that always going to give a sequel a hard time if it didn't live up to the same quality, but it also went down a completely different direction in gameplay style, feel and pace.

The result? A game that sharply divided the DA fan base into people who loved it and people who hated it - both for what the game was like a game, and for the shift in direction that it represented. Strong views came to the fore on both sides and looking through this thread you can see that division on display.

I just hope DA doesn't get the same treatment as KOTOR did after its sequel...a lengthy period in the wildnerness followed by re-release as an MMO wouldn't make me a happy bunny.

#95
KennethAFTopp

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Marvin_Arnold wrote...

I wasn't exactly disappointed. But this was due to the fact that I had read so much bad buzz about it that I decided to wait until its price dropped below (IIRC) $20 (or $25?) somewhere.

Wasn't that like a week after it was released?Image IPB

#96
Plaintiff

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Marvin_Arnold wrote...

Gibb_Shepard, never try to argue with a 14-year-old. They think different. It's the hormones.

(At least that's how he comes across with that attitude...)

Personal attack incoming, three... two... one...


I'm 21, soon to be 22, not that it's any of your business, and not once have I resorted to attacking anyone personally. You're the only person I see currently resorting to such behaviour. Making snide, baseless remarks about my age is a childish tactic that I would consider most 14-year-olds to be above using in any case.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 06 décembre 2011 - 01:43 .


#97
KennethAFTopp

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Plaintiff wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Yeah, I'm not going to listen to anyone who thinks Anders is a moron, so...


If i said Merrill is an elf, would you say she's a dwarf just to avoid conformity? 

No, because Merrill is an elf, at least as the game defines them. Don't be retarded.

Anders is not a moron, I agree whole-heartedly with most, if not all of his actions in DA2. It's not an issue of conformity at all. There have been a dozen threads debating this issue and I'm not the only person on the forums who feels this way, not by a long shot.

If I disagree with you on any point in future, rest assured that it's because you're wrong.


Dude, just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're a moron or wrong.

#98
Loup Blanc

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This abortion of a RPG deserves all the hate it gets.

#99
Arthur Cousland

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With Anders is in the party during Best Served Cold and hears of mages and templars working together, he says something like, "Am I dreaming this?". Mages and templars alike want to be able to work together. The mages just want their freedom and to not be treated like criminals simply for being mages. Most templars want to simply protect the chantry/circle. It is Meredith who is the power hungry tyrant. If Hawke never got involved in the questline, then things very well might have turned out dramatically different. It was annoying to have to fight these people simply because they attacked on sight, and Hawke had no option than to defend themself.

Orsino even says that he wishes that he hadn't interfered afterwards.

I just wish that there was an option to negotiate rather than everyone just kill Hawke on sight.

#100
WhiteKnyght

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Dragon Age II was fine in my opinion.

The real problem is that people expected Dragon Age Origins 2 but were sorely disappointed that the game changed a lot of things.

DAII is but one piece in a larger picture. I'm sure there were questlines in Origins that people didn't like, but perhaps you guys should withhold the excessive scrutiny until after the whole picture can be seen. Some things in DAII might make more sense with some perspective.