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Why ME series suffers due cut content in ME2 (not sure if 100% spoiler free)


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#76
Nashiktal

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lightsnow13 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

As far as characters not being important to the story goes, that started with Mass Effect, not Mass Effect 2. Most of the characters in the first game are also irrelevant.


This. So true. I feel like all the characters from ME1 are overrated. I played through the game not really thinking anything special about them.

If anyone has played through FF games - they nail the characters down. FF9 - Vivi is a popular favorite. FF10 - a lot of people like Auron. These games have characters that I actually know. I know who their personalities and their mannerisms. ME1..I don't know why exactly, but they just aren't special.


I will disagree with you thoughts on the characters, but then I never thought the characters were essential to the plot. Well except liara I guess for the whole cipher thing.

#77
Someone With Mass

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Nashiktal wrote...

Indeed, but ME1 wasn't 70% about gathering irrevelant characters. More like 10 tops. :P


No, ME1 was more about gathering irrelevant trinkets.:P

#78
bobdooly

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CptData wrote...

jreezy wrote...

As far as characters not being important to the story goes, that started with Mass Effect, not Mass Effect 2. Most of the characters in the first game are also irrelevant.


Some of them, maybe. But it doesn't show that badly as it does in ME2. And seriously - you need one or two characters who're just there for "comic relief" or something. Just "random guys who do the same sh!t like you and try to stay alive". Works for me.

Does NOT work if half of the squadmates are like that. :lol:


ME1
-Ashley: Fills space, LI, arbitrary character death choice.
-Kaiden: Fills space, LI, arbitrary character death choice.
-Liara: LI, says "Ilos". Nothing else.
-Tali: Gives you the evidence to convict Saren, offers 1st person perspective on how quarians are in reality (not thieves and such).
-Garrus: Helps you go after Saren, nothing else.
-Wrex: Joins because he's bored, shows you the other side of the genophage situation. Nothing else.

ME2
-Everybody except Miranda: Helps you asplode Collectors
-Miranda: Brings you back to life.

Take from this information what you will.

#79
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jreezy wrote...

As far as characters not being important to the story goes, that started with Mass Effect, not Mass Effect 2. Most of the characters in the first game are also irrelevant.


True but lets talk about the ME squad first

Kaidan: Was already on the Normandy
Ashley: Picked up during a critical mission at the beginning of the game
Garrus: Views Saren as a disgrace to the turians and was investigating him
Tali: Contained the evidence that helped you become a Spectre.Quarian view of the geth uprising
Liara: The daughter of one of Sarens accomplice and a prothean expert
Wrex: Was hunting someone who knew where Tali was. Again she contained the evidence. Krogan perspective on the genophage

Basically the ME1 squad felt... more personal and connected among others. The gathering of these members flowed smoothly And we recruited these members during important missions and they all have motives to bring Saren down.

ME2 Squad

Grunt likes to kil people and he's the perfect krogan
Jack likes killing people and she hates Cerberus. Not sure why Cerberus would want her anyway
Samara: She's a justicar and her job is to get rid of the wicked and whatnot. Shes a powerful biotic too
Mordin: Genophage and counter measures for swarms. Makes sense. Salarain view of the genophage
Garrus: Almost died but was willing to help you once he was awake. Looks up to you and wants to follow you anyway
Tali: Another former squad member thats willing to follow you to death.
Legion: Makes sense and is actually picked up during a main plot mission. Geths perspective of the geth uprising
Thane: Another character who apparently likes killing.. Somewhat. But at least we got background on Dell and Hanar
Jacob and Miranda: Both mandatory and with Cerberus
Zaeed: Got paid money
Kasumi: Got paid money

When you look at the ME2 squad as a whole.. They all seemed quite random when it came to recruitment and not as connected and smooth as the ME1 squad

Modifié par D3MON-SOVER3IGN, 30 novembre 2011 - 11:31 .


#80
Nashiktal

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bobdooly wrote...

CptData wrote...

jreezy wrote...

As far as characters not being important to the story goes, that started with Mass Effect, not Mass Effect 2. Most of the characters in the first game are also irrelevant.


Some of them, maybe. But it doesn't show that badly as it does in ME2. And seriously - you need one or two characters who're just there for "comic relief" or something. Just "random guys who do the same sh!t like you and try to stay alive". Works for me.

Does NOT work if half of the squadmates are like that. :lol:


ME1
-Ashley: Fills space, LI, arbitrary character death choice.
-Kaiden: Fills space, LI, arbitrary character death choice.
-Liara: LI, says "Ilos". Nothing else.
-Tali: Gives you the evidence to convict Saren, offers 1st person perspective on how quarians are in reality (not thieves and such).
-Garrus: Helps you go after Saren, nothing else.
-Wrex: Joins because he's bored, shows you the other side of the genophage situation. Nothing else.

ME2
-Everybody except Miranda: Helps you asplode Collectors
-Miranda: Brings you back to life.

Take from this information what you will.








No, at most four squadmates help splode the base while everyone else kinda drifts into the scenery. The most the rest of the squad does is change an invisible math number that took people peeking at the files to find out how they help.

#81
XyleJKH

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agree and disagree with some of it.
but really, you have this much time to write all this?
I think you have lost touch with your outer self.

#82
DiebytheSword

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D3MON-SOVER3IGN wrote...

ME2 Squad

Grunt likes to kil people and he's the perfect krogan
Jack likes killing people and she hates Cerberus. Not sure why Cerberus would want her anyway
Samara: She's a justicar and her job is to get rid of the wicked and whatnot. Shes a powerful biotic too
Mordin: Genophage and counter measures for swarms. Makes sense. Salarain view of the genophage
Garrus: Almost died but was willing to help you once he was awake. Looks up to you and wants to follow you anyway
Tali: Another former squad member thats willing to follow you to death.
Legion: Makes sense and is actually picked up during a main plot mission. Geths perspective of the geth uprising
Thane: Another character who apparently likes killing.. Somewhat. But at least we got background on Dell and Hanar
Jacob and Miranda: Both mandatory and with Cerberus
Zaeed: Got paid money
Kasumi: Got paid money

When you look at the ME2 squad as a whole.. They all seemed quite random when it came to recruitment and not as connected and smooth as the ME1 squad



Grossly simplified.  You have to remember that Shepard needs a small army or a real good team to hit the Collectors back.  This becomes a rouges gallery, a dirty dozen collection mission for a group that might not make it back.  Its about collecting the best of the best to do some dirty wetwork that no one wants to be a part of.

Grunt is taken because O'Keer died, and he's the one we actually wanted.  Grunt as a Krogan super soldier made with Collector technology becomes an asset to use against them.

Jack was honed by Ceberus to a killing edge, and escaped their control before their project was dismantled.  Cerberus naturally sees multiple goals met with Jack being used in the Suicide Mission.  Jack is headed off to what might be her death, neatly wrapping up that Ceberus debacle.  Investment in Jack is used to capture Reaper assets, a worth trade in TIMs estimation.

Samara is a feared warrior with quite a bit of biotic power.  Probably a counterbalance to Jack and someone likley to fight the Collectors out of duty that Cerberus likely has a hard time finding otherwise.

Thane was likely chosen for his infiltration prowess.  His end of life situation was probably seen as a good thing by Ceberus.  Kasumi was likely added as a back up to this role.

Zaeed has a guddam reputation for these impossible missions.



The point is not that these people do not drive the story forward, but the story demands that we collect them to do the impossible. 

This is not random or haphazard, this is the nature of the beast you are dealing with in ME2.

Brought back from the dead and alienated from all that you answered to, Shepard fights in the seedy dark corners of the galaxy with a mysterious foe that has yet to be tested, let alone defeated.  The bonds Shep builds in ME1 are out of neccesity, the bonds in ME2 are out of desire, this does not make them random.

#83
CptData

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Nashiktal wrote...

No, at most four squadmates help splode the base while everyone else kinda drifts into the scenery. The most the rest of the squad does is change an invisible math number that took people peeking at the files to find out how they help.



Exactly. If reducing the cast to those who're needed in the SM, you're end with this cast:

- Garrus, Jacob (leader)
- Tali, Legion (tech)
- Samara, Jack (biotic expert)

You need only one of both, so three guys are esentially needed to do the job plus two guys for Shepard's team. Makes 5. If you want some choice, raise the cast to 8 - including Tali and Garrus. means just 6 "new guys" instead of 10+1 (Morinth).

But actually, the entire SM is not the best idea. It's a great climax and looks beautiful, but from a story writer perspective, especially if you intend to continue that story with the characters, it's a stupid idea.


DiebytheSword wrote...

The point is not that these people
do not drive the story forward, but the story demands that we collect
them to do the impossible. 

This is not random or haphazard, this is the nature of the beast you are dealing with in ME2.

Brought
back from the dead and alienated from all that you answered to, Shepard
fights in the seedy dark corners of the galaxy with a mysterious foe
that has yet to be tested, let alone defeated.  The bonds Shep builds in
ME1 are out of neccesity, the bonds in ME2 are out of desire, this does
not make them random.

Acknowledged. However, I just said the SM is not the best idea although looking awesome. You can do it with a cast of 8 instead of 12+1. Kasumi and Zaeed are optional characters you won't see without their DLCs, means, the original cast is 10+1. Still - SM works with 8 (and minimum 5) characters.

If the rest of the squadmates are just there to "fill" the roster, why not using the Normandy's crew to fill empty places? Because that's what they are in the end - just "fillers". Which is a bad thing character wise.

Modifié par CptData, 01 décembre 2011 - 08:28 .


#84
00_Gundam

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CptData wrote...

Also the VS and his or her fate is not mentioned for the rest of the game. Did s/he return to Anderson to tell what happened on Horizon?



If you visit Anderson after the Horizon event he does mention that the VS gave him a full report about what transpired over there and that Anderson's suspicion regarding Cerberus's abducting colonist were wrong.
It is also implied the VS survived.

#85
CerberusWarrior

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Wrex is the only one I really liked out of the ME 1 squad the rest can suck it .

#86
CptData

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00_Gundam wrote...

CptData wrote...

Also the VS and his or her fate is not mentioned for the rest of the game. Did s/he return to Anderson to tell what happened on Horizon?



If you visit Anderson after the Horizon event he does mention that the VS gave him a full report about what transpired over there and that Anderson's suspicion regarding Cerberus's abducting colonist were wrong.
It is also implied the VS survived.


Yes, I think I mentioned that in my posting.
I think the mission is over once the VS reports to Anderson. Why is it NOT possible to arrange a meeting with the VS with Anderson's help? That's what I am wondering. You have no idea what's the fate of the VS beyond that point :(

#87
ConorShep

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 You're incorrect about one thing. Miranda cannot successfully hold the biotic field in the suicide mission (even when loyal). Only Samara/Morinth and Jack can. Therefore, according to your logic, Jack is not a redundant character.

#88
mybudgee

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Mm-hmm...yep. Ha Miranda. Guess daddy dearest skimped on the biotic upgrades after all.

#89
CerberusWarrior

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CptData wrote...

00_Gundam wrote...

CptData wrote...

Also the VS and his or her fate is not mentioned for the rest of the game. Did s/he return to Anderson to tell what happened on Horizon?



If you visit Anderson after the Horizon event he does mention that the VS gave him a full report about what transpired over there and that Anderson's suspicion regarding Cerberus's abducting colonist were wrong.
It is also implied the VS survived.


Yes, I think I mentioned that in my posting.
I think the mission is over once the VS reports to Anderson. Why is it NOT possible to arrange a meeting with the VS with Anderson's help? That's what I am wondering. You have no idea what's the fate of the VS beyond that point :(

  


I bet now that Shepard is a alliance lap dog slave again the ****** Ashley or Kaiden will tell you since all they both ever gave a dam about was wanting Shepard back the side of the alliance .

#90
goofyomnivore

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I never understood why we were recruiting a squad to fight a "Collector Vessel" or the unknown beyond the O4R. I mean if we had gotten the IFF earlier in the game, and TIM began probing it like the SB did - -and came back an said hey there is only a base there we need an infiltration team of the best -- then that would of made sense. However that isn't the case we just got 12 badasses, one crew, and one ship heading into the unknown that could very well just be a space battle or a whole plaent, who knows?

Tali and Garrus make sense due to history with Shepard and acess to ship upgrades. Miranda and Jacob are Cerberus representatives. Mordin is vital for countermeasures. Legion and Grunt you kind of "found" while doing intel missions(Reaper IFF and Okeer's work). Jack, Kasumi, Zaeed, Samara and Thane make no sense at all. Other than you just recruited some bad asses just in case you needed em.

Modifié par strive, 01 décembre 2011 - 10:04 .


#91
CptData

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ConorShep wrote...

You're incorrect about one thing. Miranda cannot successfully hold the biotic field in the suicide mission (even when loyal). Only Samara/Morinth and Jack can. Therefore, according to your logic, Jack is not a redundant character.


I think I mentioned it's a writing issue. The responsible author can write Miranda being able to create that shield dome and hold in long enough. But yeah, lets keep one "full" biotic in the team (your pick Samara or Jack).

All I wanted is to prove that a good deal of the ME2 cast is not needed. Instead of 12 guys the job could have been done with 8 (or 5!). I'm okay with 8 guys, 2 of them being Tali and Garrus which don't need to be designed from scratch. 6 new characters are still enough to care for, but is a manageable number compared against 10+1 new characters.

#92
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D3MON-SOVER3IGN wrote...

jreezy wrote...

As far as characters not being important to the story goes, that started with Mass Effect, not Mass Effect 2. Most of the characters in the first game are also irrelevant.


True but lets talk about the ME squad first

Kaidan: Was already on the Normandy
Ashley: Picked up during a critical mission at the beginning of the game
Garrus: Views Saren as a disgrace to the turians and was investigating him
Tali: Contained the evidence that helped you become a Spectre.Quarian view of the geth uprising
Liara: The daughter of one of Sarens accomplice and a prothean expert
Wrex: Was hunting someone who knew where Tali was. Again she contained the evidence. Krogan perspective on the genophage

Basically the ME1 squad felt... more personal and connected among others. The gathering of these members flowed smoothly And we recruited these members during important missions and they all have motives to bring Saren down.

ME2 Squad

Grunt likes to kil people and he's the perfect krogan
Jack likes killing people and she hates Cerberus. Not sure why Cerberus would want her anyway
Samara: She's a justicar and her job is to get rid of the wicked and whatnot. Shes a powerful biotic too
Mordin: Genophage and counter measures for swarms. Makes sense. Salarain view of the genophage
Garrus: Almost died but was willing to help you once he was awake. Looks up to you and wants to follow you anyway
Tali: Another former squad member thats willing to follow you to death.
Legion: Makes sense and is actually picked up during a main plot mission. Geths perspective of the geth uprising
Thane: Another character who apparently likes killing.. Somewhat. But at least we got background on Dell and Hanar
Jacob and Miranda: Both mandatory and with Cerberus
Zaeed: Got paid money
Kasumi: Got paid money

When you look at the ME2 squad as a whole.. They all seemed quite random when it came to recruitment and not as connected and smooth as the ME1 squad



I blame the amount of squadmates for that. Maybe BioWare felt the same which is why they seemed to reduce the number of possible permanent squadmates to...3-5 maybe?

#93
CptData

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jreezy wrote...

I blame the amount of squadmates for that. Maybe BioWare felt the same which is why they seemed to reduce the number of possible permanent squadmates to...3-5 maybe?


My fav number of active /  8. 6 was okay for ME1 - you don't need more to get the story running. Also the character development for any of those was quite decent. And you had some non-squad-NPCs to talk with on board (however, there's not much to talk).

8 works for me best in ME2 - I already told why I think so.

And ME3? I'd like to see such situation:

4 permanent squadmates
4 temporary "free to pick" squadmates
Again, 8 squadmates, but this time only 4 are permanent, the other 4 can be enlisted or dismissed freely, depending on the situation and gaming progress.

#94
Exia001

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I think, as has been stated before, that ME2 is the middle of a series and as such was needed since Shepard cannot hope to stop the Reapers with just the ME cast. The ME2 characters were needed because they all have areas of expertise which will, to a vary degree be required to take down the Reapers. This IMO are the reasons for having characters:

VS: Shepard needs more than Garrus as a buddy-buddy on the ship, plus the story of trying to regain trust may be interesting (Romance too)

Wrex: Genophage debate, Krogan leader, general kick assery.

Tali: Romance. Help in recruting Quarians. Geth debate

Garrus: Buddy-Buddy, Turian contact. Leader. Romance

Liara: Romance, Possible Asari contact.

Miranda: Confortation with TIM, Unfinished business with Shep. Romance

Jacob: Can't think of a reason. Romance

Mordin: Genophage debate/Possible helper in finding a way to beat Reapers/new tech.

Thane: I would like to see him as a PSM but for his purpose, it would be ultime redemption to save galaxy before death, could provide wise council to shep on Normandy. Romance. If in game, Drell contact.

Grunt: PSM? 'Shepard is my Battlemaster, he has no match.' replacement for Wrex? Krogan Amry leader? Help in curing Genophage? Debate

Jack: TIM confrontation, may have info on things to help beat reapers (cerberus data) Romance.

Legion: Lead Geth. Geth debate.

Samara: Is a Justicar. has weight. could gather other Asari/Justicars/Possible Asari contact.

#95
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Exia001 wrote...
Grunt: PSM? 'Shepard is my Battlemaster, he has no match.' replacement for Wrex? Krogan Amry leader? Help in curing Genophage? Debate

Nope.

#96
Someone With Mass

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Exia001 wrote...

Jack: TIM confrontation, may have info on things to help beat reapers (cerberus data) Romance.


Not really.

Well, the romance part is true, at least.

#97
Dean_the_Young

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Mesina2 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

I agree that the death was a pretty bad move. Could've just said "Two years after the battle of the Citadel" and then give people different reasons to leave or another event that held the tension for a little longer than five minutes, like the Collector attack.


But then there would be no reason for Paragon Shepard to work with Cerberus.


So hence entire work for Cerberus plot wouldn't work, which Bioware aimed for.

Well, let's look at another way.

What if Shepard was horribly maimed, instead of killed? Not the 'badass wound and slap on a Geth arm' sort of maimed: messy, never recoverable, can't even write/walk/eat without help. Crippled for life, even in future tech. It's just that bad.


Spectre duties can't be done. Can't be a marine if you need a tube to breath. Can't let the galaxy know that the Hero of the Citadel is a horribly disfigured mess either: that'd be inconvenient. About as inconvenient as letting Shepard go on about those Reapers that have been dismissed.

So what does the Council do? They cover it up.

Crippled!Shepard is sent to a nice, comfortable, but reclusive veterans hospital. Publicly, the Commander is declared MIA. The Normandy crew knows, but they aren't allowed to talk. Maybe not even visit. Shepard isn't allowed visitors from the outside, lest he go on about the Reapers. Anderson tries to visit, but he's struggling with Humanity's, and his, new responsibilities. He's failing at the Reapers as well. The VS is blocked from visiting in person, and is busy with new Alliance duties as well.

Crippled. Marginalized. Impotent. As good as dead, really. And Shepard can only watch on the news as colonies disappear in the Terminus, and no one cares.


And then... an opportunity appears. A Human charity group that does extreme rehabilitation work for Alliance soldiers so badly wounded that only advanced experimental technology gives a chance. Leading-edge stuff, highly experimental. No guarantees, but no other choice either. They've found out about Shepard, and make an offer to attempt to help Shepard.

Shepard, eager to get back into the fight and unwilling to let the Reapers go unchallenged, grabs opportunity with both hands.

The group? The Lazarus Foundation.


Shepard's grateful, but curious. Where does the money come from? Who's backing the Lazarus Foundation? Doctor Miranda Lawson gives him the boilerplate, about various Human corportations and interest groups.

After a period of monthes of extensive work, Shepard is walking again. More than walking, but running, shooting, better than he ever had before. Doctor Lawson may be a beautiful ****, but she knows her stuff. Security Jacob Taylor knows his stuff with a gun, and he is helping run Shepard through the final fitness trials. Done for the (turtorial), Jacob and Shepard comiserate about the Alliance's inaction about the Terminus colonies.


Then... an attack! People are being killed!

As Shepard makes his way out of the station, he starts to uncover the hidden secrets of the Lazarus Foundation. A nearly unlimited budget. An Illusive Man. The other patients being treated? Test subjects for Shepard's own rehabilitation: they were the ones the experimental implants were tried on first. Not all implants were survivable. Synthetic derivatives of Thresher Maw acid play a role. Etc.

And, of course, Shepard realizes that the Lazarus Foundation is a front company of Cerberus. Jacob and Miranda are revealed as Cerberus Operatives. They mention that their goal has been to rebuild Shepard to fight against the Reapers, and the colony abductions. Their boss wants to talk more.

'Resurrected' by Cerberus, and having seen with his/her own eyes the Council and Alliance's refusal to openly address the colony issue, Shepard agrees to give Cerberus a chance. One chance.

===

And we're back on track.


How long does that take? Not much longer, actually. Rewrite the Normandy-going-down section a bit. In saving Joker's crippled ass, Shepard himself gets nearly oblitterated. Hazy time-sequence establishing the extent of injuries (Shepard is unreconizable, maimed. Anderson comes in for a rare visit, and he and Shepard establish the context (Council ignorring Reapers, hiding Shepard away). Anderson introduces the Lazarus Foundation, and Miranda.

Time skip. Reframe the Lazarus Project. The basic tutorial segment is 'obstacle course/target range with heat sinks' with Jacob, rather than 'jump over crates/sprint!' from Miranda.


Nearly all the things the death-sequences was supposed to give us (alienation by the Alliance/Council, a debt to Cerberus, a reason to work with Cerberus due to Alliance/Council inactivity) can be established if Shepard is maimed, rather than dead. Cerberus is still the only one who was willing to spend the money to bring back Shepard. Shepard still has reason to feel driven away from the Council and Alliance (because they tried to hide him away, out of sight). The colonies are still the primary basis for cooperation.

#98
CptData

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This, Dean, is a darn fine plot.
I support it.

And it finally would give a reason why Shepard stays with Cerberus: it's the deal. Cerberus fixes Shepard and Shepard's payment is doing that one job: destroying the Collectors while the Council and the Alliance are still arguing if the Reapers are real or if Sovereign was a highly advanced Geth ship.

#99
Dean_the_Young

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Well, I'd say the 'deal' would be posed after the fact by TIM. Less prior agreement, more 'I'll consider all debts between us settled.'


Beforehand, the Lazarus Foundation should be as innocent as possible. A near-charity group, doing risky experimental medical-technology tests on crippled soldiers who volunteer for it. Fits a lot of Cerberus themes: the risky science (not all subjects survive), a distinguishable pro-human service (the advances made here can advance Human rehabilitation efforts across the galaxy), the front-companies (why hide what can be publicly lauded).

#100
CptData

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Well, I'd say the 'deal' would be posed after the fact by TIM. Less prior agreement, more 'I'll consider all debts between us settled.'


Beforehand, the Lazarus Foundation should be as innocent as possible. A near-charity group, doing risky experimental medical-technology tests on crippled soldiers who volunteer for it. Fits a lot of Cerberus themes: the risky science (not all subjects survive), a distinguishable pro-human service (the advances made here can advance Human rehabilitation efforts across the galaxy), the front-companies (why hide what can be publicly lauded).


Hmm, dunno about "charity" in the same sentence with "Lazarus". Doesn't fit. I think that needs a slight change. It should appear as some kind of "Veteran hospital" or so, but, like you said, funded by Cerberus or a dummy company of Cerberus. The deal shouldn't be done between TIM and Shepard but between an official - lets say "Dr. Lawson".

Could be done like that:

Lawson: Hello Mr. Shepard. How are you feeling today? Oh, my fault. You need your computer to talk. Here-
Shepard: Thank you. Yesterday you told me someone is interested in seeing me ... someone who could help me.
Lawson: Indeed. You're going to see him in two hours. All we need to discuss now is ... business. Did you ever heard of this company? *** put name of dummy company here ***
Shepard: I don't think so.
Lawson: Lets say they're currently looking for someone like you. Someone who wants to come back to life.
Shepard: Where's the catch?
Lawson: No catch. You're an important person for that company and you are a living legend. Barely alive, but alive.
Shepard: There's always a problem.
Lawson: Okay, I think you deserve the truth. The company needs you for a job. Human colonies are vanishing and the man you're going to meet wants to know why. The only man capable finding out the truth is you. The deal is that the company brings you back and you do said job.
Shepard: Sounds fair.
Lawson: Then I let him know. I make sure you'll be prepared when he arrives.


Something like that?