135 réponses à ce sujet

[bluebullets]

 NOTHING in this game relate to ANYTHING in the books, or DA:O... 

The iluvian are supposed to be portals past the fade, but the one merill reconstructs is just a demon portal, and this is just an irrelevant speck on the da2 storyline.. 
da2 is ust about some guy who saves some city from an insane chick. 

All we know is that flemmeth survived by hawke's hand. Other than that, the game had NOTHING to do with the books, lore, or da:o. 


That said, I see what they are going for.. I think.. A big war between the mages and the templars. But I don't see what any of this has to do with whatever flemeth is planning.

To be quite honest, DA2 was terrible, even though it was a 7.5-8.0 game. Hawke was the worst "hero" in any game ever. He hadn't done anything proactive in his entire life..

He didn't do anything when his brother ran at the big bad ogre, He couldn't kill the blood mage in the cave.. The useless fruitball couldn't even go up to his mom and say "hey mom. Some serial killer is sending out white lillies. beware"

---

I think this game was the least thought out, pathetic, of all bioware's games.
First off, they killed my sibling, and there was no characterization, so I did not care. They also killed my mother, but yet, I did not care..
They did a ton of this stuff expecting me to care about Hawke, but it had no impact. No depth. Hawke was an idiot so I did not cae about anything in the game. 


PLEASE fix this for da3.

/rant

[Davillo]

I think u gotta replay origins a dozen more times and read the books atleast 3x times each one too. Cuz all of what u said has connections. Flemeth? She freaking said change is cumming to world, the change is mage templar war.

[bluebullets]

Davillo wrote...

I think u gotta replay origins a dozen more times and read the books atleast 3x times each one too. Cuz all of what u said has connections. Flemeth? She freaking said change is cumming to world, the change is mage templar war.

Flemmeth didn't cause any of that; it was Anders and the crazy chick.

[Vit246]

First, the Eluvian IS a portal to a realm beyond the Fade. It was never a "demon portal" ever.

Besides that, I would actually like to pretend DA2 in its current form does not exist. Cut it off from all continuity and restart.

Yes, I think DA2 is that bad. Honestly, this is a terrible product from Bioware.

[bluebullets]

Vit246 wrote...

First, the Eluvian IS a portal to a realm beyond the Fade. It was never a "demon portal" ever.

Besides that, I would actually like to pretend DA2 in its current form does not exist. Cut it off from all continuity and restart.

Yes, I think DA2 is that bad. Honestly, this is a terrible product from Bioware.

the luvian that merill repairs justs lets a demon out. 

[TEWR]

bluebullets wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

First, the Eluvian IS a portal to a realm beyond the Fade. It was never a "demon portal" ever.

Besides that, I would actually like to pretend DA2 in its current form does not exist. Cut it off from all continuity and restart.

Yes, I think DA2 is that bad. Honestly, this is a terrible product from Bioware.

the luvian that merill repairs justs lets a demon out. 

wrong. Marethari released that demon because she was operating off of her speculation that it would release Audacity with absolutely no proof to back that up. And Audacity was a demon that was sundered from the Fade entirely -- much like Justice was -- and trapped in a demonic Buddha statue for centuries and would continue to be trapped for even more centuries.

Marethari even said in the short story that he wouldn't threaten anyone.

[whykikyouwhy]

bluebullets wrote...

 NOTHING in this game relate to ANYTHING in the books, or DA:O... 

The iluvian are supposed to be portals past the fade, but the one merill reconstructs is just a demon portal, and this is just an irrelevant speck on the da2 storyline.. 

Some Eluvians are just communication devices, or so we have been led to believe. I'm sure they serve different purposes. We haven't yet unlocked all of their secrets.

da2 is ust about some guy who saves some city from an insane chick. 

That's Hawke's part of the story to a degree, yes. But there was a lot more going on - with the world and with the companions. And it's pretty clear that some characters will play a significant role in the events of the DA-verse in future games.

All we know is that flemmeth survived by hawke's hand. Other than that, the game had NOTHING to do with the books, lore, or da:o. 

I thought the game had a lot to do with DA:O, story-wise. If you're comparing art style or combat, sure, there are differences.

He didn't do anything when his brother ran at the big bad ogre, He couldn't kill the blood mage in the cave.. The useless fruitball couldn't even go up to his mom and say "hey mom. Some serial killer is sending out white lillies. beware"

Hawke is not the omnipotent hero. (S)he is a person trying to do right, trying to survive - and has misfortune befall him/her. That doesn't change the fact that (s)he is a hero, only the hero's journey. Sadly, bad things happen to heroes.

I understand that you didn't care for the game, and you're entitled to your opinion.
But I think there is far more to the story and to Hawke's role in the DA-verse than may be immediately evident.

[Plaintiff]

Wow. Just... wow.

If you can't see how DA2 and DA:O are related, then I don't think anything I can say will make it more clear to you. If you're upset because the game diverges from the Warden's story, well, what were you expecting in a game that can easily end with the protagonist's death? Not to mention, it's been stated by the developers on more than one occasion that the Dragon Age series is the story of Thedas, not the story of a particular person or event.

Also, the Dragon Age prequel books have roughly dick-all to do with Origins, they contain some familiar characters  (just like DA2) and the Blight gets a mention (again, like DA2), but the plots are entirely different and have only the most tenuous connections to what goes on in the actual game.

Eluvians are still a complete mystery, we have no idea yet of all the functions they perform. It could be possible for a demon to use it to break free. Remember, nobody has any idea how to fix the mirror except the demon. For all we know, he could very well be instructing Merrill to create fade portal, instead of a proper eluvian.

Who says the story is about whatever Flemeth is planning? Who says Flemeth has any plans at all, besides staying alive to continue offering cryptic advice to future protagonists? In case you didn't notice, a whole lot of other **** is going on in Thedas right now: a new kind of lyrium has been discovered, the Grey Wardens are up to something, the details of which are not clear, there's the possibility of Ferelden being invaded by Orlais... I could go on. The story of Dragon Age is not just about one thing.

Aaaaand here we go again with complaints about "proactivity". First of all, by your apparent definition of the word, no fantasy protagonist has been ever been proactive. Who are you comparing Hawke to when you make this judgement? By your definition, Frodo Baggins is not proactive, Link is not proactive, Harry Potter is not proactive, your Warden in Origins was not proactive. They are always, always responding to external pressures. Sauron's army, Zelda being kidnapped again, Voldemort being a dick, The Blight. That is how most stories work. The villain is almost always the aggressor, because that's the whole damn point of being the villain. Even if a hero starts out wandering the countryside,  looking for trouble (eg Conan the Barbarian) they still have to somehow stumble across the main plot, which has already started without them.

Secondly,"proactive" (as in its actual definition) and "reactive" are not mutually exclusive terms. You can react in a proactive way, and Hawke is extremely proactive. Darkspawn attack? He leads his family out of Lothering. Proactive. Living in squalor? He goes out and looks for work. Proactive. Qunari attack the city? He fights his way to the keep with three other people, plus maybe a dog, and gets rid of the Qunari in one of three ways, which are all entirely his choice. Proactive. Mage and Templar conflict escalates into open violence? Hawke picks a side and fights for it. Proactive.

Hawke is nothing but proactive. He is a solver of problems. He spends seven years doing nothing but solving other people's problems for them. How much more "proactive" do you want him to be?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 01 décembre 2011 - 01:13 .

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

bluebullets wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

First, the Eluvian IS a portal to a realm beyond the Fade. It was never a "demon portal" ever.

Besides that, I would actually like to pretend DA2 in its current form does not exist. Cut it off from all continuity and restart.

Yes, I think DA2 is that bad. Honestly, this is a terrible product from Bioware.

the luvian that merill repairs justs lets a demon out. 

wrong. Marethari released that demon because she was operating off of her speculation that it would release Audacity with absolutely no proof to back that up. And Audacity was a demon that was sundered from the Fade entirely -- much like Justice was -- and trapped in a demonic Buddha statue for centuries and would continue to be trapped for even more centuries.

Marethari even said in the short story that he wouldn't threaten anyone.

If Marethari is reckless enough to operate off of her speculation (as in... no proof), why would you take her word that Audacity wouldn't threaten anyone?

[bluebullets]

Plaintiff wrote...

Wow. Just... wow.

If you can't see how DA2 and DA:O are related, then I don't think anything I can say will make it more clear to you. If you're upset because the game diverges from the Warden's story, well, what were you expecting in a game that can easily end with the protagonist's death? Not to mention, it's been stated by the developers on more than one occasion that the Dragon Age series is the story of Thedas, not the story of a particular person or event.

Also, the Dragon Age prequel books have roughly dick-all to do with Origins, they contain some familiar characters  (just like DA2) and the Blight gets a mention (again, like DA2), but the plots are entirely different and have only the most tenuous connections to what goes on in the actual game.

Eluvians are still a complete mystery, we have no idea yet of all the functions they perform. It could be possible for a demon to use it to break free. Remember, nobody has any idea how to fix the mirror except the demon. For all we know, he could very well be instructing Merrill to create fade portal, instead of a proper eluvian.

Who says the story is about whatever Flemeth is planning? Who says Flemeth has any plans at all, besides staying alive to continue offering cryptic advice to future protagonists? In case you didn't notice, a whole lot of other **** is going on in Thedas right now: a new kind of lyrium has been discovered, the Grey Wardens are up to something, the details of which are not clear, there's the possibility of Ferelden being invaded by Orlais... I could go on. The story of Dragon Age is not just about one thing.

Aaaaand here we go again with complaints about "proactivity". First of all, by your apparent definition of the word, no fantasy protagonist has been ever been proactive. Who are you comparing Hawke to when you make this judgement? By your definition, Frodo Baggins is not proactive, Link is not proactive, Harry Potter is not proactive, your Warden in Origins was not proactive. They are always, always responding to external pressures. Sauron's army, Zelda being kidnapped again, Voldemort being a dick, The Blight. That is how most stories work. The villain is almost always the aggressor, because that's the whole damn point of being the villain. Even if a hero starts out wandering the countryside,  looking for trouble (eg Conan the Barbarian) they still have to somehow stumble across the main plot, which has already started without them.

Secondly,"proactive" (as in its actual definition) and "reactive" are not mutually exclusive terms. You can react in a proactive way, and Hawke is extremely proactive. Darkspawn attack? He leads his family out of Lothering. Proactive. Living in squalor? He goes out and looks for work. Proactive. Qunari attack the city? He fights his way to the keep with three other people, plus maybe a dog, and gets rid of the Qunari in one of three ways, which are all entirely his choice. Proactive. Mage and Templar conflict escalates into open violence? Hawke picks a side and fights for it. Proactive.

Hawke is nothing but proactive. He is a solver of problems. He spends seven years doing nothing but solving other people's problems for them. How much more "proactive" do you want him to be?

I did not say anything about it being about one character.
It is about one world, and da2 does not do anything in relation to that world, or expand on anything that we know about the world.
How do we know flemeth is planning something? Morrigan told the warden in the dlc.

almost every tragety in the game could have been prevented very easily. "Mother. I heard about a murderer sending out white lilies" - was that so hard? Lopping heads off blood mages seems pretty obvious, etc.

DA2 was pathetic in relation to da1. Bioware should be ashamed. They couldn't even succeed in making me sad when my family died.
I didn't really like Merrill, I didn't really like Aveline, and Ander's behaviour nearing the end of the game was just out of character from the templar roasting lovable blonde guy from DA:A.. But i suppose ustice might have influnced it. Although, a spirit of justice probably wouldn't blow up the house of god, and the people inside

[Maria Caliban]

bluebullets wrote...

Hawke was the worst "hero" in any game ever. He hadn't done anything proactive in his entire life..

I agree with Hawke not being proactive enough part and disagree with the rest.

[lv12medic]

I could agree with DA2 having little connection to DA:O or the two novels thus far written since the first one was about Marric, Loghain and the Rebellion against Orlai and the other was about Duncan and the Grey Wardens doing shenanigans in Ferelden. But DA2 having nothing to do with the Dragon Age universe at all? Bwuh? It may have not been a perfect game but it has everything to do with the Dragon Age world.

[hoorayforicecream]

Maybe the OP thinks that the DA world is limited to Ferelden.

[TEWR]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

bluebullets wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

First, the Eluvian IS a portal to a realm beyond the Fade. It was never a "demon portal" ever.

Besides that, I would actually like to pretend DA2 in its current form does not exist. Cut it off from all continuity and restart.

Yes, I think DA2 is that bad. Honestly, this is a terrible product from Bioware.

the luvian that merill repairs justs lets a demon out. 

wrong. Marethari released that demon because she was operating off of her speculation that it would release Audacity with absolutely no proof to back that up. And Audacity was a demon that was sundered from the Fade entirely -- much like Justice was -- and trapped in a demonic Buddha statue for centuries and would continue to be trapped for even more centuries.

Marethari even said in the short story that he wouldn't threaten anyone.

If Marethari is reckless enough to operate off of her speculation (as in... no proof), why would you take her word that Audacity wouldn't threaten anyone?

because the demon was trapped and was begging to be freed by a mage. If he could've freed himself, he simply would've.

Merrill even says that he could only be freed by a very powerful spell.

You couldn't just set him loose. No one could. It would take very powerful magic to release him from his prison. --- Merrill


EDIT: not to mention that mages are able to sense things about demons. Not their intent, but what type of demon they are, the nature of the area they're in, etc.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 décembre 2011 - 02:26 .

[AtreiyaN7]

Because triggering a mage rebellion across Thedas has nothing to do with Thedas AT ALL!!!!!! Yeah, they totally weren't hinting at a growing templar vs. mage conflict in DA:O or Awakening. *rolleyes* DA2 has little to do with Grey Wardens, but to claim that the game has nothing to do with the DA universe is flat-out stupid.

[bluebullets]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Because triggering a mage rebellion across Thedas has nothing to do with Thedas AT ALL!!!!!! Yeah, they totally weren't hinting at a growing templar vs. mage conflict in DA:O or Awakening. *rolleyes* DA2 has little to do with Grey Wardens, but to claim that the game has nothing to do with the DA universe is flat-out stupid.

It was quite obvious I meant other than the fact that the mage blew up the house of ****ing god, and started a ****ing riot, which lead to a war.
This was 30 minutes of the game, and was completely rushed, and nothing leading up to it had much to do with the conflict, when you look at the entirety of the game.

And asside from this, even this had nothing to do with anything else that was built on. It could have easily been a new franchise entirely.

[lv12medic]

bluebullets wrote...

It was quite obvious I meant other than the fact that the mage blew up the house of ****ing god, and started a ****ing riot, which lead to a war.
This was 30 minutes of the game, and was completely rushed, and nothing leading up to it had much to do with the conflict, when you look at the entirety of the game.

And asside from this, even this had nothing to do with anything else that was built on. It could have easily been a new franchise entirely.

So all the quests regarding blood mages, and the mage underground, and the templars helping or fighting against the mages starting in Act 1 didn't have anything to do with the Mage rebellion?  The whole Qunari attacking the city in Act 2 and killing off the Viscount, one of only two people that stood as any kind of moderator between the Mages and Templars had nothing to do with the mage rebellion?  Was the relic you recover at the end of Act 1 is what made Meredith mad or was it her own fault or a mixture of the two?  Thats just parts of DA2 that tie in with the rest of DA2.

DA:O ties in mainly in the fact you only end up in Kirkwall because of the Blight which was only the whole point of DA:O.  DA:A hinted at Mages and Templars were heading for an OK Corral showdown.

If DA2 had been it's own franchise people would start clamoring on the forums "How is this not DA related?"  Even if they renamed everything it would be so similar to the lore established for the DA Universe Bioware would have to sue itself for copyright infringement.

[TEWR]

Rojahar wrote...

bluebullets wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Because triggering a mage rebellion across Thedas has nothing to do with Thedas AT ALL!!!!!! Yeah, they totally weren't hinting at a growing templar vs. mage conflict in DA:O or Awakening. *rolleyes* DA2 has little to do with Grey Wardens, but to claim that the game has nothing to do with the DA universe is flat-out stupid.

It was quite obvious I meant other than the fact that the mage blew up the house of ****ing god, and started a ****ing riot, which lead to a war.
This was 30 minutes of the game, and was completely rushed, and nothing leading up to it had much to do with the conflict, when you look at the entirety of the game.

And asside from this, even this had nothing to do with anything else that was built on. It could have easily been a new franchise entirely.

Nothing led up to it? Only 30 minutes of the game was about the rising tensions between Templars and Mages? I think this is the first time ANYONE has ever alleged DA2 didn't beat that horse enough.

It barely led up to it in the preceding Acts, but not in enough of a way to actually matter.

I'm no fan of DAII but I can clearly see that Bioware was trying -- and failed -- to have a sense of tension rising.

*starts listening to the KHII soundtrack song Tension Rising*

Ironically, Bioware did with their game what Hawke should've done in the game. Tried to do something, but ended up failing at achieving that something.

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

If Marethari is reckless enough to operate off of her speculation (as in... no proof), why would you take her word that Audacity wouldn't threaten anyone?

because the demon was trapped and was begging to be freed by a mage. If he could've freed himself, he simply would've.

Speculation. The demon could be waiting to get a more powerful host, or something else. You're assuming that the demon wants freedom more than anything else (which is a pretty big bit of speculation right there). If it is already free, it can simply sit there and lie to a young mage in order to get her to let her guard down and possess her. Getting her to believe that it is no threat would be step 1.

Merrill even says that he could only be freed by a very powerful spell.

You couldn't just set him loose. No one could. It would take very powerful magic to release him from his prison[i]. --- Merrill

You'll forgive me if I don't take a young elf's advice when her teacher is supposed to be very bad at being a mage.

EDIT: not to mention that mages are able to sense things about demons. Not their intent, but what type of demon they are, the nature of the area they're in, etc.

Citation needed.

[TEWR]

hoorayforicecream wrote...


Speculation. The demon could be waiting to get a more powerful host, or something else. You're assuming that the demon wants freedom more than anything else (which is a pretty big bit of speculation right there). If it is already free, it can simply sit there and lie to a young mage in order to get her to let her guard down and possess her. Getting her to believe that it is no threat would be step 1.

If he was free, he could've taken over Merrill or Marethari when they went to see him in either the short story or when Merrill went to him to learn blood magic.

Demons can forcibly possess a mage.

You'll forgive me if I don't take a young elf's advice when her teacher is supposed to be very bad at being a mage.

I have no doubt that Marethari was a gifted mage. She just lacked good judgment skills and common sense and was more than likely used by a demon.

Her magic was able to help keep Mahariel alive, when most things aside from the Joining can't combat the taint.

I also don't see how Merrill being young is detrimental to her credibility considering she can identify the type of demon encountered in the Deep Roads, is able to resist Idunna's mind control (pretty sure she could help out there), and is able to identify that Keran isn't possessed by any type of demon because his blood has no scent of demons.

EDIT: not to mention that mages are able to sense things about demons. Not their intent, but what type of demon they are, the nature of the area they're in, etc.

Citation needed.

Merrill, Anders, Bethany I believe, and Mage Hawke can sense what type of demon the Rock Wraith Abomination is and the Warden is able to know when the Veil is thin in an area, plus other instances of it.

Even Templars can sense disturbances in the Veil.

[lv12medic]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It barely led up to it in the preceding Acts, but not in enough of a way to actually matter.

Well, I think the biggest problem for how significantly it all ties in is that Hawke is really just an observer watching everything happen from afar and doing random little quests for everyone and never really gets deeply involved in to the plot build up.  Also, a lot of the plot build up is done very piecemeal and chunky.  Very chunky like Campbell's chunky soup.  And then the full plot and its climax falls on Hawkes head like the falling sky whale from Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy.

That may be due to a pretty hectic development schedule though.  I don't know for sure, I don't work for Bioware.  They should hire me just so I can gather accurate data. 

Modifié par lv12medic, 01 décembre 2011 - 03:02 .

[TEWR]

lv12medic wrote...


Well, I think the biggest problem for how significantly it all ties in is that Hawke is really just an observer watching everything happen from afar and doing random little quests for everyone and never really gets deeply involved in to the plot build up. 

That's precisely the problem. For months now I've said that Hawke should either be able to start a series of quests through the Mage Underground Board run by Mistress Selby or a Templar detective where Hawke can either become the Champion of the Mage Underground -- meaning he becomes the leader -- or the Vanquisher of the Mage Underground.

Either way, Templar authority would be weakened.

They should hire me just so I can gather accurate data. 

And me so I can give them ideas!

*is semi-serious, but would definitely accept a job at Bioware's DA studio in a heartbeat.*

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 décembre 2011 - 03:12 .

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Speculation. The demon could be waiting to get a more powerful host, or something else. You're assuming that the demon wants freedom more than anything else (which is a pretty big bit of speculation right there). If it is already free, it can simply sit there and lie to a young mage in order to get her to let her guard down and possess her. Getting her to believe that it is no threat would be step 1.

If he was free, he could've taken over Merrill or Marethari when they went to see him in either the short story or when Merrill went to him to learn blood magic.

Demons can forcibly possess a mage.

Feynriel would beg to differ. Why would the demons try to beguile him if they could just forcibly take him over?

You'll forgive me if I don't take a young elf's advice when her teacher is supposed to be very bad at being a mage.

I have no doubt that Marethari was a gifted mage. She just lacked good judgment skills and common sense and was more than likely used by a demon.

Her magic was able to help keep Mahariel alive, when most things aside from the Joining can't combat the taint.

I also don't see how Merrill being young is detrimental to her credibility considering she can identify the type of demon encountered in the Deep Roads, is able to resist Idunna's mind control (pretty sure she could help out there), and is able to identify that Keran isn't possessed by any type of demon because his blood has no scent of demons.

Idunna's mind control is resistable by a non-mage Hawke... I don't think it's a strong example of Merrill's magical mastery. She also isn't able to identify that Keran isn't possessed. She doesn't *think* he's possessed. Her exact words are "I don't know... It's... It's clean. There is no scent of demons in his blood." Is this a guarantee? You can choose to read it as such, but I am still skeptical. Bethany and Anders have similar lines, and none of them guarantees it. Anders uses the reasoning "If a demon was in there, it would have defended itself. Looks like he's clear", which assumes that demons aren't capable of hiding and biding their time.

EDIT: not to mention that mages are able to sense things about demons. Not their intent, but what type of demon they are, the nature of the area they're in, etc.

Citation needed.

Merrill, Anders, Bethany I believe, and Mage Hawke can sense what type of demon the Rock Wraith Abomination is and the Warden is able to know when the Veil is thin in an area, plus other instances of it.

Even Templars can sense disturbances in the Veil.

Merrill, Anders and Bethany could try to sense if a demon possessed someone. That doesn't mean that they know what type of demon, or the nature of the area it's in, and certainly not whether it is really bound. All they can do is try to sense if it *is* a demon, and even then they aren't really sure. So... forgive me if I don't believe that mages have a 'demon' sense.

And if Templars can really sense it, why wouldn't they just sense the demons possessing their recruits themselves?

Really, it comes down to whether you believe that demons are capable of higher thinking and reasoning beyond the immediate. If you don't think they are capable of that, then what you say makes sense. However, if you do, then it calls everything you use as evidence into question, because it means the demons could be disseminating. And, since Torpor (and other demons) offer guile and tricks to make deals with mortals, I'd have to say that you've not any real hard evidence to your claim.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 01 décembre 2011 - 03:31 .