135 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

well of course Decimus was and idiot the mages in starkhaven were not as badly treated as those in kirkwall yet he had to burn the place down

The point is that people didn't want a badass, perfect, and flawless hero.

They just wanted a story that made sense, and having a proactive protagonist that fails to prevent **** from hitting the fan can be a very interesting and compelling story piece. But Hawke wasn't that. He becomes involved only when it inconveniences him and he's dragged into it, and even then doesn't do much to be proactive.

That's not proactive. That's reactive.

Had he been able to work in Act 2 to either help the Mage Underground -- beyond two quests that really don't do much -- or to crush it, that would be a proactive Hawke. Hawke would be doing them because he either sees Meredith as the problem and hopes that with Templar authority weakened -- because these quests would weaken Templar authority due to mages running loose and Templars not doing their job -- Meredith would be ousted.

Alternatively, for those who want to crush the Mage Underground, Hawke would be doing it because he sees the rogue Mages as the problem. Templar authority would still be weakened though because the Templars have to rely on an outsider to do their job.

Now of course roleplaying would still be allowed for those types of things, but I'm just talking on a basic roleplaying level.

This isn't taking into account proper characterization of Meredith or Orsino, but it would've helped the game out a good deal because he's working to prevent **** from hitting the fan, but he'd inevitably fail to do so.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 décembre 2011 - 09:47 .

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

However, things like Decimus attacking a group that consists of 3 mages at most is just idiotic beyond belief. He should first find out where Hawke's allegiances lie before he attacks anyone.

Because people, especially those in desperate situations, usually have a strong leader that immediately takes full stock of the situation, gathers all relevant information, and then makes an informed decision. That's what usually happens, right?

Decimus wasn't exactly the hallmark of a fully capable and intelligent leader holding his followers' interests at heart. He was desperate, angry and paranoid. He didn't even have full control over his own followers; many of them didn't fight when he commanded them to. I'm pretty sure they followed him because they didn't feel there was any other choice.

Expecting him to say "Oh, you're all mages too. Come join us" is a little foolish. He saw a bunch of people, brandishing weapons, who had fought their way through all of the defenders he raised (including other apostate mages). Why wouldn't he expect them to be hostile? Why would he expect other mages he meets to be friendly when he's already performing forbidden magic like necromancy and they've already killed other mages he's left behind?

Even in real life, plenty of foolish mistakes get made in the heat of the moment. It happens all the time when tensions are high and both sides have itchy trigger fingers. It may be idiotic, but it is hardly unbelievable.

[TEWR]

hoorayforicecream wrote...


Because people, especially those in desperate situations, usually have a strong leader that immediately takes full stock of the situation, gathers all relevant information, and then makes an informed decision. That's what usually happens, right?

Decimus wasn't exactly the hallmark of a fully capable and intelligent leader holding his followers' interests at heart. He was desperate, angry and paranoid. He didn't even have full control over his own followers; many of them didn't fight when he commanded them to. I'm pretty sure they followed him because they didn't feel there was any other choice.

Expecting him to say "Oh, you're all mages too. Come join us" is a little foolish. He saw a bunch of people, brandishing weapons, who had fought their way through all of the defenders he raised (including other apostate mages). Why wouldn't he expect them to be hostile? Why would he expect other mages he meets to be friendly when he's already performing forbidden magic like necromancy and they've already killed other mages he's left behind?

Even in real life, plenty of foolish mistakes get made in the heat of the moment. It happens all the time when tensions are high and both sides have itchy trigger fingers. It may be idiotic, but it is hardly unbelievable.

I would expect him to hold off on attacking when Grace -- the woman he loved dearly and listened to -- is able to see that Hawke and company aren't Templars or even an immediate threat.

These people were willing to follow Decimus and Grace to the death if need be. That takes a strong leader for them to follow him like that. That they stood by him for as long as they did means that he was a good and strong leader. So yes, in that desperate situation he must've been a leader to the mages.

Yet the game ignores this and makes him out to be a paranoid nutjob who would attack a group that can have 3 mages, one being a Dalish Mage! Why would the Dalish care about bringing in mages for the Circle? They wouldn't.

Instead, he just says "Why should I care who they are?!" and attacks the party like that. Hawke isn't even given a chance to say "Now hold on just a minute!" and explain who they really are.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 décembre 2011 - 10:04 .

[jbrand2002uk]

Being Proactive is not really possible because one of the basic laws of how anything works is Causality :

causality (kɔːˈzælɪtɪ)

— n , pl -ties
1. a. the relationship of cause and effect
b. the principle that nothing can happen without being caused
2. causal agency or quality

ie something happens and you react to it, So no matter what Hawke does or who Hawke sides with he/she can never be proactive because whatever action Hawke takes is in turn a reaction to a previous event even the Warden wasnt proactive at all( almost all Grey wardens in ferelden were killed at ostagar so Warden has to build a new army and alliances to face the Darkspawn( a reaction to a previous event because if the Wardens had'nt all been killed at Ostagar and the Darkspawn driven back there would have been no need to go and put together a new army from scratch).

the idea of a proactive person is a myth because all anyone can do is react to the hand they are dealt by Fate/Universe or the Maker

[TEWR]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Being Proactive is not really possible because one of the basic laws of how anything works is Causality :

causality (kɔːˈzælɪtɪ)

— n , pl -ties
1. a. the relationship of cause and effect
b. the principle that nothing can happen without being caused
2. causal agency or quality

ie something happens and you react to it, So no matter what Hawke does or who Hawke sides with he/she can never be proactive because whatever action Hawke takes is in turn a reaction to a previous event even the Warden wasnt proactive at all( almost all Grey wardens in ferelden were killed at ostagar so Warden has to build a new army and alliances to face the Darkspawn( a reaction to a previous event because if the Wardens had'nt all been killed at Ostagar and the Darkspawn driven back there would have been no need to go and put together a new army from scratch).

the idea of a proactive person is a myth because all anyone can do is react to the hand they are dealt by Fate/Universe or the Maker

Proactivity is defined as anticipating a problem and doing something to prevent said problem from arising before it involves you. Hawke can hear from word of mouth around town that Meredith's measures are a lot more strict than her predecessors and that mages have it rough.

Hawke could rightly anticipate that she will become a threat to Kirkwall if she remains in power and do something about it.

That isn't reacting to anything. It hasn't forced him to react to anything as he came to the idea of his own volition before he was forced to get involved.

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I would expect him to hold off on attacking when Grace -- the woman he loved dearly and listened to -- is able to see that Hawke and company aren't Templars or even an immediate threat.

Citation needed.

These people were willing to follow Decimus and Grace to the death if need be. That takes a strong leader for them to follow him like that. That they stood by him for as long as they did means that he was a good and strong leader. So yes, in that desperate situation he must've been a leader to the mages.

Except they didn't stand by him when faced with the opposition. Not all of them, and not the "woman he dearly loved".

Yet the game ignores this and makes him out to be a paranoid nutjob who would attack a group that can have 3 mages, one being a Dalish Mage! Why would the Dalish care about bringing in mages for the Circle? They wouldn't.

Instead, he just says "Why should I care who they are?!" and attacks the party like that. Hawke isn't even given a chance to say "Now hold on just a minute!" and explain who they really are.

The game doesn't ignore this at all.

Talktable entries pertaining to Decimus:
"There must be a demon working through him. No normal man would profane the dead like this."
"I'vebeen at the Circle since I was six. I've heard about demons, blood magic... they warned us, but I never thought I'd see it."
"I surrender! Take me to the templars! I don't want anything to do with this... blood magic."
"The rest of them, they're still following Decimus. He's gone mad. I think he'd kill us all just to take the templars down."

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 13 décembre 2011 - 10:25 .

[jbrand2002uk]

Well if he dealt with Meredith as you say he would actually be reacting to what he's heard by word of mouth besides even if Hawke did kill Meredith it wouldnt change anything because while Meredith is Stricter than her Predecessors she is merely a symptom of a much bigger problem mainly the arrogance of the Templar Order and the Chantry as a whole claiming that its their divine right to rule over Mages because the Maker "made it so" ( Sorry Captain Picard) which is convenient since as nobody can ask the maker " hey dude is that right you gave them divine authority to rule over us"Killing Meredith would simply mean she's replaced by an equally biggoted templar who believes that their way is the only way .

[Bryy_Miller]

Using this logic, no sequel is connected to the previous game in the series.

[TEWR]

citation needed

it's implied the love was reciprocated, but never outright stated.

Except they didn't stand by him when faced with the opposition. Not all of them, and not the "woman he dearly loved".

No but they did stand by him up to that point. If he had been demonstrating a severe lack of sanity for a while then they wouldn't have followed him because they would've known he would've been more dangerous than if they took their chances out there.

Thus, Decimus had to have been a strong leader. But the game does ignore this because it makes him out to be a weak man who cracks almost immediately. If he was a strong leader then he wouldn't have cracked so easily.

Now I'm certainly not going to advocate that he and his cadre of fellow mages should've killed Thrask, but they were almost all blood mages and could've easily taken him on and escaped. So there was no reason for them to be so afraid or to let themselves think they were cornered. Grace knew there was only one Templar out there, so logic dictates that the rest of the group knew.

All of your talktable points are from Alain. One lone mage does not account for actual human characteristics prior to that point. As I've said, for him to have been leading mages as long as he did he had to have been a sane mage that was also a strong leader.

Alain only suspects Decimus of being the one to have started the fire. But there's no proof of this. He only suspects that a demon would be at work for a man to profane the dead, but there's no proof of this. In reality, Decimus was just as much a man as he ever was. People use blood magic because it's tied to the physical realm -- and not the Fade -- and because Templars can't sever the connection between the mage and his/her magic.

What Decimus did was for his friends. But making him attack people on sight with no inclination for him to do so goes against his character of being a strong leader, which as I've said before -- repeatedly, and it's making me think of Mahogany -- he had to have been.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 décembre 2011 - 10:59 .

[TEWR]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Well if he dealt with Meredith as you say he would actually be reacting to what he's heard by word of mouth

 
Not if he's the one doing the asking, which is about all I can say for him being proactive against Meredith. He's able to ask about Meredith in the prologue.

And one could roleplay their Hawkes to have a bad feeling regarding this Meredith woman.

besides even if Hawke did kill Meredith it wouldnt change anything because while Meredith is Stricter than her Predecessors she is merely a symptom of a much bigger problem

 
I never said he should've killed Meredith prior to the endgame. I said he should've tried to weaken Templar authority in the hopes that it would lead to her removal from power.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 décembre 2011 - 11:00 .

[Maria Caliban]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Being Proactive is not really possible because one of the basic laws of how anything works is Causality :

causality (kɔːˈzælɪtɪ)

— n , pl -ties
1. a. the relationship of cause and effect
b. the principle that nothing can happen without being caused
2. causal agency or quality

ie something happens and you react to it, So no matter what Hawke does or who Hawke sides with he/she can never be proactive because whatever action Hawke takes is in turn a reaction to a previous event...

Proactive != Nonreactive

[Herr Uhl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yet the game ignores this and makes him out to be a paranoid nutjob who would attack a group that can have 3 mages, one being a Dalish Mage! Why would the Dalish care about bringing in mages for the Circle? They wouldn't.

Why would you fight through a mass of undead (I think it was undead) to get to these mages, while they are holed up for a last stand knowing that templars know their position, in the first place? His assumption isn't outlandish.

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

it's implied the love was reciprocated, but never outright stated.

Much like the rest of the conclusions you're drawing about Decimus. Speculation, and nothing more.

No but they did stand by him up to that point. If he had been demonstrating a severe lack of sanity for a while then they wouldn't have followed him because they would've known he would've been more dangerous than if they took their chances out there.

Or here's another likely possibility - the crazy mage who is more powerful than you, who is using blood magic, who you think is consorting with demons, and raising the dead, might try to kill you if you try to turn on him.

Thus, Decimus had to have been a strong leader. But the game does ignore this because it makes him out to be a weak man who cracks almost immediately. If he was a strong leader then he wouldn't have cracked so easily.

Isn't this putting the cart before the horse? You're assuming he was a strong leader when you don't have a lot of evidence. What there is significant evidence for is that he was crazy. There's very little evidence that he was a strong leader. I believe that Decimus was a bully, who the other mages rallied behind for lack of better option. They were in a bad situation, and they had a charismatic, powerful and troubled leader. It's similar to other charismatic, yet crazy cult leaders.

The difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying is that I'm not trying to pass off my speculation as fact.

Now I'm certainly not going to advocate that he and his cadre of fellow mages should've killed Thrask, but they were almost all blood mages and could've easily taken him on and escaped. So there was no reason for them to be so afraid or to let themselves be cornered.

Not all of them were blood mages. Again, the talktable:

"I surrender! Take me to the templars! I don't want anything to do with this... blood magic."
"I ran. Decimus is wrong—blood magic is a work of evil, not just a power the templars keep from us for spite!"

All of your talktable points are from Alain. One lone mage does not account for actual human characteristics prior to that point. As I've said, for him to have been leading mages as long as he did he had to have been a sane mage that was also a strong leader.

They count a lot more than your non-specific 'implications'. If you've got proof, show it. Talk table entries. Screenshots. Not implications, hard evidence. Otherwise you're just throwing around speculation disguised as fact.

[jbrand2002uk]

Point being even having Meredith removed from power would not have prevented what happened in the end she would have been replaced by an equally Biggoted Templar . KntCptn Cullen was equally as biggoted for when you rescue Kerran He answers Mages are dangerous they cannot be treated like you and me" suggesting they're no more than animals" and his answer to a soloution ? Better education of mages so they can understand why the chantry functions as it does which amounts to saying it is right that Templars and the Chantry treat mages lke caged animals, its all the mages fault because they just dont "understand" Simply put the Chantry wants to keep the status quo they have had for the last 1000yrs

[TEWR]

[quote]hoorayforicecream wrote...


Much like the rest of the conclusions you're drawing about Decimus. Speculation, and nothing more.[/quote]

These are common traits of people in leadership positions. It's hardly speculation.

[quote]


Or here's another likely possibility - the crazy mage who is more powerful than you, who is using blood magic,[/quote]

They're all using blood magic. Except Alain.

[quote]
who you think is consorting with demons[/quote]

blood mages can sense if someone is possessed by a demon.


[quote]
, and raising the dead[/quote]

They're all raising the dead. Except Alain.

[quote]
, might try to kill you if you try to turn on him.[/quote]

I guess that's why he tried to kill the people who didn't fight Hawke and company. Oh wait....




[quote]
Isn't this putting the cart before the horse? You're assuming he was a strong leader when you don't have a lot of evidence.[/quote]

There is significant evidence. For him to have been a leader, he needed to have all the traits of one at some point and he had to have been sane. How many other dissenting voices were there against Decimus being a leader, beyond Alain? None. That means that they supported him as leader.

And you don't go insane as quickly as the game would like you to believe.

[quote]
What there is significant evidence for is that he was crazy[/quote]

Insanity doesn't happen as quickly as the game would like you to believe.

. There's very little evidence that he was a strong leader. I believe that Decimus was a bully,[/quote]

There's no actual evidence of him being a bully to his charges. 






[quote]
Not all of them were blood mages. Again, the talktable:

"I surrender! Take me to the templars! I don't want anything to do with this... blood magic."
"I ran. Decimus is wrong—blood magic is a work of evil, not just a power the templars keep from us for spite!"[/quote]

Alain not being a blood mage doesn't make the rest of them be regular mages.

And I said "almost all mages"




[quote]
They count a lot more than your non-specific 'implications'. If you've got proof, show it. Talk table entries. Screenshots. Not implications, hard evidence. Otherwise you're just throwing around speculation disguised as fact.
[/quote]

I play on PS3 so I don't have access to these types of things. I can't take screenshots, I can't access the talktable without playing it over again. And I'm currently in Act 3 on my latest playthrough

If that weakens my stance, so be it. But I stand by my stance that for him to have been a good leader he had to have had the necessary traits of one and the game wanted to void all this in an attempt for him to be an enemy.

[TEWR]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Point being even having Meredith removed from power would not have prevented what happened in the end she would have been replaced by an equally Biggoted Templar .

 
You're acting like I actually wanted Meredith removed from power. I didn't. I only said that the rationale for a proactive Hawke to work against Meredith would be in the hopes that she would be removed.

I never said it should actually succeed in doing so.

KntCptn Cullen was equally as biggoted for when you rescue Kerran He answers Mages are dangerous they cannot be treated like you and me" suggesting they're no more than animals" and his answer to a soloution ?

Among Kirkwall's Templars he's a moderate. It's not saying much, but I'd rather have Cullen in power than Meredith, Kerras, or Alrik. Cullen doesn't abuse his charges.

But in all honesty, I think that Thrask should've been the one to become Knight-Commander, with Cullen as Knight-Captain still.

 

[jbrand2002uk]

I'd Agree given a choice between Meredith and Cullen I'd pick Cullen as its the lesser of 2 evils but would still Have thrask as Knight-Commander as at least he can see it from the other side of the argument

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

No but they did stand by him up to that point. If he had been demonstrating a severe lack of sanity for a while then they wouldn't have followed him because they would've known he would've been more dangerous than if they took their chances out there.

Those mages stood by while Decimus was cut down by a complete stranger. If even half of them aided Decimus, Hawke's group would have been slaughtered. They would not held back and watched their leader be slaughtered if Decimus had been acting rationally up until that point.

For all of Decimus' supposed leadership skills, the fact remains is that the had led them into a dead end. There was no way out of that cavern and the templars were practically on their doorstep. He backed them into a corner with the intention of forcing his fellow mages to fights.

It's far more reasonable to conclude that those mages were following Thrask out of fear, or perhaps because they had no other options. Decimus practiced blood magic; templars like Kerras would consider that sufficient cause to slaughter them all.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

People use blood magic because it's tied to the physical realm -- and not the Fade -- and because Templars can't sever the connection between the mage and his/her magic.

Mages use blood magic because it is immensely powerful. It is a perfect tool for evil mages who care nothing for the suffering of others.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

For him to have been a leader, he needed to have all the traits of one at some point and he had to have been sane.

Or, as I said before, they followed him out of fear and a lack of any better options.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

How many other dissenting voices were there against Decimus being a leader, beyond Alain? None. That means that they supported him as leader.

Incorrect. Grace herself says she begged Decimus not to turn to blood magic. And she urged him not to attack Hawke.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Alain not being a blood mage doesn't make the rest of them be regular mages.

And yet despite the fact that most or all of those mages were apparently maleficars, NONE of the mages who stood by Decimus actually used blood magic in the battle. Nor do they use their blood magic to help Hawke if he/she fights Ser Karras on their behalf.

Alain says that Decimus raised the dead on his own. All of the evidence backs his statement.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 14 décembre 2011 - 12:16 .

[Maria Caliban]

What are the traits a leader must have and why does sanity factor into it?

[jbrand2002uk]

A good leader should lead by mutual respect not fear and should not put his own personal vendatta before the safety of those in his charge

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...


Those mages stood by while Decimus was cut down by a complete stranger. If even half of them aided Decimus, Hawke's group would have been slaughtered. They would not stood by if Decimus had been acting rationally; they were clearly hoping that he would die in that fight.

Hawke kills way more enemies than he fought there.

For all of Decimus' supposed leadership skills, the fact remains is that the had led them into a dead end. There was no way out of that cavern and the templars were practically on their doorstep. He backed them into a corner with the intention of forcing his fellow mages to fight, or perhaps so that they would serve as his sacrifices.

You have to account for how long Hawke and company were in there. If they were in there for a couple hours -- because maybe the actual cave is bigger than the cave we explored -- then Decimus and company had ample time to take on Thrask and leave.

or mind control him to let them go.

It doesn't matter though. Ultimately, I just disagree with the entire storyline of DAII and feel it was horrendous.

It's far more reasonable to conclude that those mages were following Thrask partly out of fear, but also because they had no other options. Thrask didn't bring Hawke in because he was afraid for his fellow templars' safety; he knew that those mages were all going to be slaughtered.

But not due to Decimus' own actions. Due to Ser Kerras being one of Meredith's cronies and an abuser of mages.

Mages use blood magic because it is immensely powerful. It is a perfect tool for evil mages who care nothing for the suffering of others.

Well yea, that's also another reason. But not all blood mages are evil.

And I wouldn't call Decimus evil. Insane with no justification for it certainly, because a few mages saying "He's acting insane!" is no reason to believe that a man in a leadership position was insane.

Insanity isn't something that just happens on the spur of the moment. It's a gradual declination into madness, and it would be obvious for anyone to see that a man in a leadership role was unfit for such a role. As such, they would've mutinied against him to remove him from leading the group. They've been on the run for a while and Decimus would've had to have slept.

If Decimus wasn't fit to be a leader prior to Act of Mercy, then they could've killed him in his sleep.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 décembre 2011 - 12:24 .

[Abispa]

The whole "crazy mages" and "stupid Templars" thing showed just how dependent RPGs are on "stupid" enemies like Orcs, goblins, zombies, and Darkspawn. Every time you turn a corner and were attacked by mindless Darkspawn, you just kind of accept the RPG cliche of mindless monster enemies who fight you till the death and provide treasure and EXP.

In DA2 the Darkspawn were replaced by slavers, Templars and mages. They almost always attack automatically and to the death. We get their money and EXP. But casting these "normal" people as RPG monsters it gave the game a weird feel. And none of the prelude cinema scenes, including Decimus' or Dougal's, really added any credibility to the battles.

In retrospect, I guess the battles with "normal" people were handled the same way in DA:O, two lines of dialog in a prelude scene and then FIGHT! In my memory they were buried under the incredible weight of Darkspawn battles.

It makes me wonder if Bioware should totally revamp DA battles (BSN will be flamed by "betrayed" gamers, I'm sure). Non monster enemies should retreat, and they should become more cautious as your reputation rises. Or something. But the DA style fights from DA:O that was filled primarily with mindless Darkspawn runs the risk of making ALL future adversaries stupid monsters with a vocabulary. And that makes them seem even dumber.

[TEWR]

Maria Caliban wrote...

What are the traits a leader must have and why does sanity factor into it?

• Loyalty from his/her charges
• Respect
• Honor
• Honesty
• Passion
• Ability to persuade people
• Confidence
• Care
• Compassion
• Humility
• Support everyone in your group

and many other things. Sanity factors into it because, well... would you want to follow a psychopath? Or any other person who has a lack of sanity?

[Herr Uhl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
and many other things. Sanity factors into it because, well... would you want to follow a psychopath? Or any other person who has a lack of sanity?

There has been a staggering amount of successful cult leaders that were psychopaths.

True story.

[TEWR]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
and many other things. Sanity factors into it because, well... would you want to follow a psychopath? Or any other person who has a lack of sanity?

There has been a staggering amount of successful cult leaders that were psychopaths.

True story.

Cult members generally aren't right in the head themselves. At least down the line.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 décembre 2011 - 12:33 .