135 réponses à ce sujet

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Hawke kills way more enemies than he fought there.

Nowhere in Act 1 does Hawke take on more than one or two mages at a time. Had all 10 or so mages attacked Hawke at that moment, they would have won that fight.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You have to account for how long Hawke and company were in there. If they were in there for a couple hours -- because maybe the actual cave is bigger than the cave we explored -- then Decimus and company had ample time to take on Thrask and leave.

And yet they didn't, despite the fact that Grace knew a templar was hanging out somewhere near the entrance.

But, y'know, Decimus had plenty of time to raise a small army of walking corpses.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But not due to Decimus' own actions. Due to Ser Kerras being one of Meredith's cronies and an abuser of mages.

What does that matter? It just reinforces my point that they followed Decimus because they had no choice. 

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well yea, that's also another reason. But not all blood mages are evil.

Yes, just the majority of them.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And I wouldn't call Decimus evil. Insane with no justification for it certainly, because a few mages saying "He's acting insane!" is no reason to believe that a man in a leadership position was insane.

He attacked Hawke without provocation. He desecrated the dead. And, presuming he was actually responsible for the destruction of Starkhaven's circle, he was likely responsible for the death of many fellow mages.

I'm not seeing a sterling example of ethics here.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Insanity isn't something that just happens on the spur of the moment. It's a gradual declination into madness, and it would be obvious for anyone to see that a man in a leadership role was unfit for such a role.

You seem to be under the impression that leaders must be liked by their followers in addition to being mentally stable. 

Most real-life despots hold on to their positions because no one dares challenge them. Most gang leaders and kingpins hold on to their power through force.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If Decimus wasn't fit to be a leader prior to Act of Mercy, then they could've killed him in his sleep.

Maybe they talked about it. Maybe one or two of them tried and were killed for it.

I don't know exactly what all of the Starkhaven mages thought of their leader, but I do know this: only a couple of them bothered to aid their leader, and none of them showed anger towards Hawke for slaying him. Despite the fact that he was a dangerous maleficar, Alain was willing to risk running from him.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 14 décembre 2011 - 12:50 .

[Herr Uhl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
and many other things. Sanity factors into it because, well... would you want to follow a psychopath? Or any other person who has a lack of sanity?

There has been a staggering amount of successful cult leaders that were psychopaths.

True story.

Cult members generally aren't right in the head themselves. At least down the line.

I wouldn't overexpect my ability to avoid pressure and charisma in when down on my luck, so I find that statement slightly insulting.

We also have leaders of whole countries that managed to stay their entire natural lifetime that are largely considered as monsters. Does this mean that all the people in that country were idiots?

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...


Nowhere in Act 1 does Hawke take on more than one or two mages at a time. Had all 10 or so mages attacked Hawke at that moment, they would have won that fight.

The mages in DAII don't even have many abilities to rely on and have low health.

I doubt they would've won. Due in part to the PC's power of never losing, but mainly because the gameplay in DAII doesn't really present this as possible.

And Hawke is also able to take on groups of demons, Abominations, and many other things -- in Act 1 alone -- who have a more extensive repertoire -- though not that extensive -- of abilities to call upon.

There was only one exit from that cave. I checked.

Well, I'm pretty sure the map continues past the area where you fight Decimus. You're just unable to go there because the door is closed. And Hawke and Varric can say the mages left through the back if they lied to the Templars.

But I was really just saying they could've taken on Thrask at the exit he was guarding and run away after that. It's not as if there were 30 Templars ready and waiting for Decimus and company. Ser Kerras and his goons only showed up

Yes, just the vast majority of them.

Eh... this only really applies to Tevinter. Some of the blood mages in Uldred's rebellion had noble intentions and were caught up in very horrid incidents.

You seem to be under the impression that Decimus snapped at that very instant. My belief is that Decimus had always been a huge ****.

He couldn't have been insane prior to that because he was a leader.

Maybe they talked about it. Maybe one or two of them tried and were killed for it.

I don't know exactly what all of the Starkhaven mages thought of their leader, but I do know this: only a couple of them bothered to aid their leader, and none of them showed anger towards Hawke for slaying him.

Mainly because we're unable to talk to the rest of them and they're just there to look pretty.

Grace shows anger though

Incorrect. Grace herself says she begged Decimus not to turn to blood magic. And she urged him not to attack Hawke.

I don't recall her saying she wanted him to not use blood magic. However, yes you're right about her urging him not to attack Hawke. But I meant among the other mages, as I had previously mentioned Grace a couple pages back.

And yet despite the fact that most or all of those mages were apparently maleficars, NONE of the mages who stood by Decimus actually used blood magic in the battle. Nor do they use their blood magic to help Hawke if he/she fights Ser Karras on their behalf.

Alain says that Decimus raised the dead on his own. All of the evidence backs his statement.

I'm fairly certain they do use blood magic abilities when you fight Decimus. I'll have to replay it, but I'm almost positive that they use the DAII mage enemy move where they gather up their blood into a ball of energy and launch it at their opponents (a variant of a non-blood mage's attack)

[dragonflight288]

*eating popcorn* fascinating debate.

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He couldn't have been insane prior to that because he was a leader.

As I said before, most real-life despots and organized crime figures  achieve and maintain power out of fear and intimidation. Being likeable and honest has nothing to do with it.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Mainly because we're unable to talk to the rest of them and they're just there to look pretty.

And yet, you take their silence as approval of Decimus' leadership skills.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't recall her saying she wanted him to not use blood magic.

Grace: I warned him. I told him, once he marked himself as a blood mage, that was all anyone would see.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm fairly certain they do use blood magic abilities when you fight Decimus. I'll have to replay it, but I'm almost positive that they use the DAII mage enemy move where they gather up their blood into a ball of energy and launch it at their opponents (a variant of a non-blood mage's attack)

Nope! Decimus is the only mage in that cavern who uses blood magic.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 14 décembre 2011 - 01:18 .

[TEWR]

hey, share some of that popcorn with your fellow Dwarven Noble!

[dragonflight288]

*passes popcorn* Have at it. I also have roasted Nug. Don't worry, it's not Shmooples.

My personal take on it is that Decimus was a flat character not given enough development time to truly ascertain if he was desperate and attacked in the heat of the moment, insane and used brute force to get others to follow him, or simply impulsive among other traits. All I do know is, Alain ran away, Grace warned him, I had to fight an army of undead on my way there (it seemed like he was preparing a last stand to me), and then he died. Case closed, moved on to the next nut who could offer money to Hawke.

It was all about getting to the expedition with my first Hawke, and worry about the fruitcakes later.

[jbrand2002uk]

mmmm fruitcake with the fruit soaked in rum prior to baking

[The_Real_Lee]

I like how this turned from "DA2 is crap" to a debate about templars and magic. That alone says that the game was compelling enough for the players.

[TEWR]

The_Real_Lee wrote...

I like how this turned from "DA2 is crap" to a debate about templars and magic. That alone says that the game was compelling enough for the players.

eh not really. We've simply shifted over to Decimus being a good leader or not prior to the moment where the plot dictated that he was a sucky leader.

I still maintain that DAII was crap and didn't compel me.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 décembre 2011 - 08:04 .

[whykikyouwhy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The_Real_Lee wrote...

I like how this turned from "DA2 is crap" to a debate about templars and magic. That alone says that the game was compelling enough for the players.

eh not really. We've simply shifted over to Decimus being a good leader prior to the moment where the plot dictated that he was a sucky leader.

I still maintain that DAII was crap and didn't compel me.

I took The_Real_Lee's post to mean that the game was compelling in that it draws us into discourse, and what topics for debate it has introduced.

But good way to bring it back to crap-talk.

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

And yet, you take their silence as approval of Decimus' leadership skills.

I take their silence during the moments where the game could've given them the opportunity to talk -- meaning cutscenes -- as proof that Decimus was a good leader. And the fact that they don't talk about Decimus ever being cruel to his charges. Alain never mentions that Decimus killed any other mages when he's free of Decimus' group, so there's no reason to think that he ever intimidated them into being there.

If he's dead, they really wouldn't have any reason to not say anything.
 
Fault of the game really.

Grace: I warned him. I told him, once he marked himself as a blood mage, that was all anyone would see.

That's not saying "Don't use blood magic". That's just saying "Are you prepared for the world to only see you as a blood mage and not as a man protecting us?"

Nope! Decimus is the only mage in that cavern who uses blood magic.

I'll take your word on it.

For now....

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 décembre 2011 - 03:02 .

[jlb524]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The_Real_Lee wrote...

I like how this turned from "DA2 is crap" to a debate about templars and magic. That alone says that the game was compelling enough for the players.

eh not really. We've simply shifted over to Decimus being a good leader prior to the moment where the plot dictated that he was a sucky leader.

I still maintain that DAII was crap and didn't compel me.

I took The_Real_Lee's post to mean that the game was compelling in that it draws us into discourse, and what topics for debate it has introduced.

But good way to bring it back to crap-talk.

I guess it depends on one's standards for 'crap' and 'not crap'.

For me, a game that compels me to talk about its story and characters quite often isn't crap.

[TEWR]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The_Real_Lee wrote...

I like how this turned from "DA2 is crap" to a debate about templars and magic. That alone says that the game was compelling enough for the players.

eh not really. We've simply shifted over to Decimus being a good leader prior to the moment where the plot dictated that he was a sucky leader.

I still maintain that DAII was crap and didn't compel me.

I took The_Real_Lee's post to mean that the game was compelling in that it draws us into discourse, and what topics for debate it has introduced.

But good way to bring it back to crap-talk.

Ah. Oops

Well it doesn't matter. Anywhere DAII comes up, it always comes down to crap-talk. Sad, but true. 

Besides, Decimus being a good leader prior to Act of Mercy has hit a standstill of sorts. It's now at "agree to disagree" I feel.

 

[TEWR]

jlb524 wrote...

I guess it depends on one's standards for 'crap' and 'not crap'.

For me, a game that compels me to talk about its story and characters quite often isn't crap.

Personally, a game that has a well-told story that interested me and characters that are fleshed out isn't crap.

But.... DAII only succeeded in making the companions the most interesting part for me. Everything else sort of... fell flat for me.

But I kinda do want to steer back away from the crap-talk. It inevitably turns into someone saying "You're an idiot for liking DAII". That's something I don't want to see for the millionth time.

[Fast Jimmy]

I ENJOYED DA2, but I really didn't LIKE it.

Its hard to put into words, really. I was excited to play it and was really pumped about where the story was going. Except once I found out WHERE it was going (end of Act 2, beginning of Act 3) I was beyond angry. I've lost 8 hours worth of gameplay before without saving and been less angry and swore less at my TV than I was when the start of Act 3 began.

On a different note of the whole Decimus conversation, Decimus is a Roman name meaning "tenth." Does anyone else think this could imply a Roman-esque type of culture in Starkhaven? We have seen and heard very little of this place aside from what Sebastian has said.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

Some of the people who are still alive from David Koresh's cult still think he's Jesus reborn or whatever, I'm not sure that makes him a "good" leader. It depends on how you define good. "Very charismatic", sure. "Not a psychopath", not so much.

Well, it's my belief that people only join cults because of the beliefs and not the person promoting the beliefs themselves -- even if the person promoting the beliefs is promoting beliefs about himself. People seem to join cults because they want to belong to a group. There's that sense of "where do I fit in?".

Though really, Decimus isn't leading a cult. He's a leader of a renegade group of mages. Comparing his cadre to a cult doesn't really hold much water to me because of the difference in leadership.

One is religious in nature, the other is ideological.

That may seem like a similarity in nature, but looking at it Decimus is more akin to a military leader or a captain of a ship. He's not spouting off things and hoping people will believe it.

And while some cultists make last stands and are heavily armed, I don't consider them military leaders.

That's why I say he had to have been a good and strong leader for them to have followed him as they did.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 décembre 2011 - 05:54 .

[bunch1]

This thread took a few turns but to the origanl question, yes DAII is related to the world of DA(otherwise known as Thedas). Both games use the same contient and history as their backdrop. The same paranoid templars, bitter mages, self rightious chantry, arrogant dalish, second class elves, divided humans, and scheming dwarves, but because this is a sequal they don't go into detail, instead they are just there in the backgroud. The difference is it takes place in another country that is more akin to the city states of greece then the dark age britan. Not suprising considering it is a contient with several countrys and cultures. Just because you don't get to go to Orzammar dosen't mean it dosen't have an impact, Bartrand's ploting would make any dwarven noble proud, not suprising considering he was born a noble. Likewise, the Dalish contiue to show distrust of the humans every time you go to their camp, just like in DA:O. The templars seem more harsh, but this may be fallout from the Circle of Ferelden losing large numbers of mages to demons and abominations, and as time moves on the mages resist being punished for crimes they didn't commit and the templars respond with more strict mesures. It's a pattern that drives both camps further and further apart as the years pass. To say it has nothing to do with the DA world is just wrong.

On another note, some on this thread complain that Hawke is to reactive and not proactive, but what else could he/she be. The Hawke family is an apostate family with two or three apostates in it. Hawke's whole life he/she has been taught to keep his/her head down and avoid drawing attention. Carver himself makes mention of it when he complains about being the only sword in a house of mages, that he wasn't allowed to be good because it may draw unwanted attention. Bethany to feels quilty about forcing the family to move constantly to avoid discovery. To expect Hawke to suddenly go aginst this and activly help other mages attack the templars and mark himself and his family as their enemy, or work with them aginst free mages during act I or II is unrealistic and by act III he, as the champion, is working on a grander scale with the order and circle. So really, the only way for him to get involved with the larger events is to be dragged into them, sometimes aginst his/her will. Really, as long as his/her friends and family aren't involved Hawke just dosen't care. I'm not saying it's right or that Hawke is the best pc, but it wouldn't make sense for Hawke to just go looking for trouble without some selfish reason.

[TEWR]

bunch1 wrote...

On another note, some on this thread complain that Hawke is to reactive and not proactive, but what else could he/she be. The Hawke family is an apostate family with two or three apostates in it. Hawke's whole life he/she has been taught to keep his/her head down and avoid drawing attention. Carver himself makes mention of it when he complains about being the only sword in a house of mages, that he wasn't allowed to be good because it may draw unwanted attention. Bethany to feels quilty about forcing the family to move constantly to avoid discovery. To expect Hawke to suddenly go aginst this and activly help other mages attack the templars and mark himself and his family as their enemy, or work with them aginst free mages during act I or II is unrealistic and by act III he, as the champion, is working on a grander scale with the order and circle. So really, the only way for him to get involved with the larger events is to be dragged into them, sometimes aginst his/her will. Really, as long as his/her friends and family aren't involved Hawke just dosen't care. I'm not saying it's right or that Hawke is the best pc, but it wouldn't make sense for Hawke to just go looking for trouble without some selfish reason.

Hawke could've indeed been proactive. Assuming that he/she helped out the Mage Underground, this could be done through use of Mistress Selby's Board where she gives the player quests to do. The quest line made sure that Hawke's identity wouldn't be revealed as it was very covert.

As for helping the Templars, this could be done through the Chantry board. Or through letters sent to Hawke's house.

Besides, by Act II Hawke has enough money to stay out of the Circle and be protected. Money is able to give rich mages opportunities the majority of mages can't get. Just look at Emile de Launcet, the Hawke family, and the mage girl from the codex in MotA.

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

eh not really. We've simply shifted over to Decimus being a good leader prior to the moment where the plot dictated that he was a sucky leader.

I never agreed to anything of the sort. Everything in the game points to Decimus being a complete lunatic, including the testimony of his own followers and his own actions. You only insist otherwise based on your rather bizarre pre-conceptions about what a leader should be like.

I still don't understand why you feel the need to whinge over the actions  of a minor character. He only exists to provide conflict during the Act of Mercy quest — which would be resolved fairly quickly if it weren't for his involvement — and to represent the 'fanatical mage' side of the overall mage/templar conflict. Thus Decimus receives an amount of characterization that is proportionate to his minimal relevance to the overall plot. Why did he need any more?

Modifié par thats1evildude, 14 décembre 2011 - 07:54 .

[TEWR]

Things that say Decimus was a good and strong leader:

1) Mages are praying near Decimus as he's casting magic, Grace among them. This isn't some act of fear of Decimus, as Grace wouldn't be praying if it was.

2) Grace said "Decimus gave us the courage to face the Templars. Without him, we'd have been prisoners still". This clearly shows that the group placed their trust in Decimus for as long as they've been on the run. He obviously inspired confidence within them, which means that he was a good and strong leader. Alain only left because he couldn't handle seeing blood magic, as it was a first time for him. That and the plot dictated that Decimus be made insane.

The reason I'm so fixated on this is because we barely get any sane, non-Abomination mages. And those that we do get can be killed. Most if not all of them anyway.

EDIT: Besides, Decimus could still help the Mage-Templar conflict if he was a sane mage. To think otherwise is foolish.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 décembre 2011 - 07:28 .

[thats1evildude]

1) Their body stances mean nothing. Aside from the fact that there's a limited number of motions allowed to NPCs in these games, there's a whole trope dedicated to villains commanding others to kneel before them.

I mean, if a crazed maleficar with powers above your own commanded you to drop to your knees while he performed some ritual, would you argue with him?

2) Grace's testimony was extremely biased due to the fact that Decimus was her lover. For all her trumpeting that Decimus gave them the courage to fight, the fact remains that they stood by and let him die. Even if they recognized that Hawke's group weren't templars, it would be pretty stupid to let the strongest member of your group fall if you're planning a resistance.

And on the subject of Grace, she still refers to Decimus' actions as "crimes." She doesn't say "We'll all be executed because Decimus stood against the templars."

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Alain only left because he couldn't handle seeing blood magic, as it was a first time for him.

Not to mention his disgust at Decimus' desecration of the dead, as well as his fear that Decimus was going to kill them all.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The reason I'm so fixated on this is because we barely get any sane, non-Abomination mages. And those that we do get can be killed. Most if not all of them anyway.

And so you need to downplay the faults of an obvious villain? Well, at least you're not trying to fit him into leather pants.

The Mage/Templar conflict doesn't need people like Decimus. He was a classic case of the fanaticism that the pro-mage side breeds.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 15 décembre 2011 - 09:27 .

[TEWR]

1) Their body stances mean nothing. Aside from the fact that there's a limited number of motions allowed to NPCs in these games, there's a whole trope dedicated to villains commanding others to kneel before them.

I mean, if a crazed maleficar with powers above your own commanded you to drop to your knees while he performed some ritual, would you argue with him?

So now we're saying that he commanded him to bow before him simply because he was a blood mage?

He didn't command anyone to do anything. If he was going to command them to obey him and kneel before him, don't you think he would've sent them after Hawke before he sent himself? He threw himself at Hawke. Doesn't seem like the act of a villain. Seems like the act of someone who would sacrifice himself so that everyone else could go free.

Good intentions, idiotic reasoning for him to act on those intentions is what pisses me off about Decimus. A good man who is forced by a combat-heavy game to fight without actually thinking.

2) Grace's testimony was extremely biased due to the fact that Decimus was her lover.

Forgive me for saying this, but that's absurd.

She loves him so her credibility is weakened? How does that make any sense? 

I mean, if she was being held for a crime sure I could understand that, but she wasn't. She had no reason to lie to Hawke there. I mean really, what possible benefit is there for saying "He was a good leader and helped us to find the courage to fight"?

For all her trumpeting that Decimus gave them the courage to fight, the fact remains that they stood by and let him die. Even if they recognized that Hawke's group weren't templars, it would be pretty stupid to let the strongest member of your group fall if you're planning a resistance.

1) They had the courage to fight Templars. That courage may not extend to citizens and non-Templars. 

2)  They weren't planning a resistance. They were fugitives. They weren't trying to fight the Templars at all. They would fight them if need be, but that's not them saying "Yea man, let's go fight some Templars! Whoo-hoo!!".


 

And on the subject of Grace, she still refers to Decimus' actions as "crimes." She doesn't say "We'll all be executed because Decimus stood against the templars."

So? It may be a crime in terms of Chantry law to be a blood mage, but that doesn't mean it was actually criminal. The necromancy I'll grant is a crime against nature, but to be fair he only did that to bolster their numbers.

There were only a dozen mages there -- as Alain said -- so it's understandable that he would profane the dead to increase the odds of them surviving.

Do I condone it? I can't say. Do I sympathize with what he did and understand why he did it? Yes. He had noble intentions.

I can definitely say that one thing that really irks me is how Hawke or the other mages can't even attempt to explain his intentions to Decimus. But also how Decimus was just made into an idiotic character.

Not to mention his disgust at Decimus' desecration of the dead, as well as his fear that Decimus was going to kill them all.

Necromancy is a part of blood magic. So that's part and parcel to him running away due to the blood magic.

And Alain seems to be the paranoid one in that instance.

If Decimus was really going to kill the mages in an attempt to take down the Templars, why didn't he do it against Hawke and company when he attacked to cast a really powerful spell? Because Decimus was a good and strong leader who knew that he shouldn't sacrifice his charges.

And so you need to downplay the faults of an obvious villain?

He's not an obvious villain. That's my point. He's not even a villain. He's a good man and a good leader that the game wanted to make into a villain for the sole sake of plot stupidity.

And he had awesome hair. I've been trying to fit that one into this discussion somehow. Dude had some awesome wavy hair going on.

No relevance, but I always bring it up when talking about Decimus, because it's true.

The Mage/Templar conflict doesn't need people like Decimus. He was a classic case of the fanaticism that the pro-mage side breeds.

Oh like Grace is the fanatic side. Like Tarohne (I didn't like how we find out why she was insane in Act II. Or that she looked like a clown). Like Quentin, who's really the only one I can say I was okay with being insane.

You see a pattern here?

Hell even DG admitted he wished he put more sane mages in the game.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 décembre 2011 - 10:02 .