135 réponses à ce sujet

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So now we're saying that he commanded him to bow before him simply because he was a blood mage?

Well, if he didn't command them, why do you think they were bowing and scraping at his feet?

"Friends, the ground is very comfortable over here! You should come and kneel over here while I cast this spell!"

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He didn't command anyone to do anything. If he was going to command them to obey him and kneel before him, don't you think he would've sent them after Hawke before he sent himself?

Well, he was rather busy with the raising of walking corpses and such.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Forgive me for saying this, but that's absurd.

She loves him so her credibility is weakened? How does that make any sense?

We tend to view the people we love as being better than they actually are. I've no doubt that Decimus did urge his fellow mages to fight the templars, but he didn't so much inspire them as cow them into submission. Grace made him out to be a revolutionary, but in practice he was probably more like a terrorist.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

2)  They weren't planning a resistance. They were fugitives. They weren't trying to fight the Templars at all. They would fight them if need be, but that's not them saying "Yea man, let's go fight some Templars! Whoo-hoo!!".

Even if he didn't implicitly state that Decimus intended to take on the templars, I'm sure that he didn't create  that small army of walking corpses to carry their luggage.

I'm sure if they were planning to stay on the run, there were better ways of doing it than holing up in a cave with only one exit.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I can definitely say that one thing that really irks me is how Hawke or the other mages can't even attempt to explain his intentions to Decimus. But also how Decimus was just made into an idiotic character.

"Idiotic" isn't the term I would use. "Extremely arrogant" is better.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If Decimus was really going to kill the mages in an attempt to take down the Templars, why didn't he do it against Hawke and company when he attacked? Because Decimus was a good and strong leader who knew that he shouldn't sacrifice his charges.

Well, he was facing down a small group. Even if Hawke provded too much for him, it'd be silly to sacrifice all of his men at the first sign of trouble.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He's not an obvious villain. That's my point. He's not even a villain.

He was a blood mage who desecrated the dead. He attacked a group of strangers without provocation, ignoring the protests of his closest ally. His fellow mages either feared him or wouldn't lend a hand to save him. His name was friggin' Decimus, which is  a syllable away from "decimate".

Even if his intentions were somewhat sympathetic, he was clearly a bad guy.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Like Tarohne (I didn't like how we find out why she was insane in Act II. Or that she looked like a clown).

Well, just as Decimus was an example of the over-zealous mages who go too far in the fight for freedom, Tarohne represented another side to the conflict: evil mages who are only interested in gaining power. Sure, she opposed the templars, but only in the sense that they were in her way.

I presume you're referring to the Forbidden Knowledge quest? I thought those books provided more insight into the nature of blood magic than they did into Tarohne's psyche.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 15 décembre 2011 - 11:12 .

[Fast Jimmy]

thats1evildude wrote...
His name was friggin' Decimus, which is  a syllable away from "decimate".

Actually, the word "decimate" simply means to reduce by ten.

When a general decimates an opposing army, he only takes out 10% of its forces, not totally clears them out.

Just a little factoid. As I said early, Decimus is simply a Latin name for "the tenth."

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 15 décembre 2011 - 12:22 .

[thats1evildude]

I'm aware of the actual definition of the word and the context behind its meaning. It actually refers to a rather extreme order given to Roman troops to kill a tenth of their number to improve discipline within their ranks.

Nonetheless, people often use "decimate" in the same context as "massacre", probably because it has an ominous ring to it. Because of that association, "Decimus" is basically a villainous-sounding name.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 15 décembre 2011 - 12:48 .

[Fast Jimmy]

thats1evildude wrote...

I'm aware of the actual definition of the word and the context behind its meaning. It actually refers to a rather extreme order given to Roman troops to kill a tenth of their number to improve discipline within their ranks.

Nonetheless, people often use "decimate" in the same context as "massacre", probably because it has an ominous ring to it. Because of that association, "Decimus" is basically a villainous-sounding name.

I really hope Bioware makes a villain with the name "Massacreus." That would just be metal.

In regards to the actual (seemingly bizarre) argument about a minor villain in a random quest, I'll throw this in... there are PLENTY of good leaders who are bat sheet crazy. Being utterly confident is an amazing motivator to get people to follow you... and is usually only a trait possessed by those who overvalue their strength, undervalue their enemies and/or are living off in their own fantasty version of reality. Neither of which neccessarily make them a competent leader... but it could make them someone who sounds like they know what they are talking about, that they have a plan that they alone can achieve and people desperate enough for a solution would follow them, only to realize too late that their "leader" is off his rocker and is going to get everyone killed.

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

Well, if he didn't command them, why do you think they were bowing and scraping at his feet?

"Friends, the ground is very comfortable over here! You should come and kneel over here while I cast this spell!"

They were praying to Andraste.

That's the only explanation that makes sense that wouldn't be contradicted later on. You're saying he commanded them to kneel before his mighty self, yet this is contradicted when he doesn't order them to attack Hawke. As a leader or as a blood mage.

Well, he was rather busy with the raising of walking corpses and such.

He used one bloody spell to raise the dead that lasted two seconds. I think he can manage to say "And you men attack too!".

We tend to view the people we love as being better than they actually are. I've no doubt that Decimus did urge his fellow mages to fight the templars, but he didn't so much inspire them as cow them into submission. Grace made him out to be a revolutionary, but in practice he was probably more like a terrorist.

There's no evidence of him being a bully to the other mages, so saying he was a bully to them holds no water.

Even if he didn't implicitly state that Decimus intended to take on the templars, I'm sure that he didn't create  that small army of walking corpses to carry their luggage.

Of course not. But he only profaned the dead when he went into that cave.

I'm sure if they were planning to stay on the run, there were better ways of doing it than holing up in a cave with only one exit.

The map does continue past the room Decimus and Grace were holed in at. The PC can't go there, but the map obviously goes on past that point.

Now why do they use the other exit? Who knows. Grace is a sucky leader. Or maybe she was about to surrender but Hawke's actions renewed her hope of having a chance to escape.

"Idiotic" isn't the term I would use. "Extremely arrogant" is better.

I prefer idiotic. Makes more sense.

Well, he was facing down a small group. Even if Hawke provded too much for him, it'd be silly to sacrifice all of his men at the first sign of trouble.

The whole rationale for him being insane was based on Alain's statement "I think he'd kill us all just to take down the Templars".

Now he doesn't actually sacrifice anyone to take down Hawke -- whom he believes is a Templar until Grace tells him they aren't -- you're saying it's silly for him to do what Alain believed he would do?

"This guy might be too much for me! If he's a Templar agent, I guess that's that! These guys will go back to the Circle or be killed!"

The game makes him seem like he isn't a man who'd so easily sacrifice anyone.

Using Alain's beliefs -- beliefs where he has no proof to back it up other than a hunch -- as evidence of what Decimus would do when faced with Templars and Templar agents and then ignoring the fact that he doesn't do this when he's actually faced with such a threat is being selective.

He was a blood mage who desecrated the dead. He attacked a group of strangers without provocation, ignoring the protests of his closest ally. His fellow mages either feared him or wouldn't lend a hand to save him. His name was friggin' Decimus, which is  a syllable away from "decimate".

Even if his intentions were somewhat sympathetic, he was clearly a bad guy.

1) to bolster his numbers because they were being pursued by Templars.
2) because he was unjustly made to be an insane character when he's actually not.
3) Alain feared him and Alain's just a child. No other mage feared him. Saying they feared him with no proof to back it up is bad.
4) His name's possible meaning within Thedas has no relevance to his character. I named my character Xanthos Aeducan and Xanthos translates to "golden", "blonde-haired", or "yellow" in ancient Greek. Yet there's nothing about Xanthos where he has blonde-hair. About as yellow as he gets is the fact that he's wearing Cailan's armor.

Point being, using his name as evidence against his character has no basis, especially when his name may have a different meaning in Thedas then it does here.

Well, just as Decimus was an example of the over-zealous mages who go too far in the fight for freedom, Tarohne represented another side to the conflict: evil mages who are only interested in gaining power. Sure, she opposed the templars, but only in the sense that they were in her way.

I presume you're referring to the Forbidden Knowledge quest? I thought those books provided more insight into the nature of blood magic than they did into Tarohne's psyche.

They provide some insight into her spiral into a lust for power and insanity -- though nothing about her Clown Make-up Syndrome  -- but do give a bit of insight into blood magic. My issue being just that if she was going to be made insane and power-hungry, codexes showing that descent should've been present in Act 1 where she appears and not 3 years later.

All in all though, I would've preferred if she was a sane mage. Or at least reasonably sane. I wouldn't have sided with her, but I think Bioware overdid it on insanity and this made the game suffer for it. All I would've done is said that the methods she was using are effective, but have no method of control so innocent Mages and good Templars would die in the process.

Having sane characters makes the game more compelling than just "MUAHAHAHAHAHA I'm evil!!!"

Sane and evil I can get behind. Danarius and Caladrius were sane, yet evil characters.

And I wouldn't use those tomes as the answer to blood magic's origins. I just don't see how a demon could have been the first ones to teach something that isn't tied to them or the realm they inhabit.

[Fast Jimmy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And I wouldn't use those tomes as the answer to blood magic's origins. I just don't see how a demon could have been the first ones to teach something that isn't tied to them or the realm they inhabit.

To be fair, when you ask for the same blood magic teachings from the Desire Demon in DAO, she just gives you a book that you then read later.

It may be a gameplay mechanic more than anything, but that method of transferring blood magic knowledge has been used previously.

Besides, it could take months, if not years to learn everything a demon would have to teach you about blood magic. Assuming the demon couldn't just wave their hands and impart that to you, it would require you being in constant communion with a demon for months at a time, which could severely weaken the demon, take up its time to do other fun stuff and leave you open to possession. I'd say an evil tome of knowledge may be the preferred method.

[TEWR]

Fast Jimmy wrote...


To be fair, when you ask for the same blood magic teachings from the Desire Demon in DAO, she just gives you a book that you then read later.

It may be a gameplay mechanic more than anything, but that method of transferring blood magic knowledge has been used previously.

Besides, it could take months, if not years to learn everything a demon would have to teach you about blood magic. Assuming the demon couldn't just wave their hands and impart that to you, it would require you being in constant communion with a demon for months at a time, which could severely weaken the demon, take up its time to do other fun stuff and leave you open to possession. I'd say an evil tome of knowledge may be the preferred method.

Right.

I mean, the only reason demons know about blood magic is because the arcane is eternal in the Fade -- evidenced by Torpor's opening line -- and blood magic's methods of being learnt in the physical realm were almost entirely exterminated by the Chantry.

I'm not saying demons can't teach it. But it's moreso due to the fact that magical knowledge is what they specialize in remembering and not that they have anything to really to do with blood magic. They're the quickest way to learn blood magic because of that.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 décembre 2011 - 02:19 .

[Huntress]

bluebullets wrote...

 NOTHING in this game relate to ANYTHING in the books, or DA:O... 

The iluvian are supposed to be portals past the fade, but the one merill reconstructs is just a demon portal, and this is just an irrelevant speck on the da2 storyline.. 
da2 is ust about some guy who saves some city from an insane chick. 

All we know is that flemmeth survived by hawke's hand. Other than that, the game had NOTHING to do with the books, lore, or da:o. 


That said, I see what they are going for.. I think.. A big war between the mages and the templars. But I don't see what any of this has to do with whatever flemeth is planning.

To be quite honest, DA2 was terrible, even though it was a 7.5-8.0 game. Hawke was the worst "hero" in any game ever. He hadn't done anything proactive in his entire life..

He didn't do anything when his brother ran at the big bad ogre, He couldn't kill the blood mage in the cave.. The useless fruitball couldn't even go up to his mom and say "hey mom. Some serial killer is sending out white lillies. beware"

---

I think this game was the least thought out, pathetic, of all bioware's games.
First off, they killed my sibling, and there was no characterization, so I did not care. They also killed my mother, but yet, I did not care..
They did a ton of this stuff expecting me to care about Hawke, but it had no impact. No depth. Hawke was an idiot so I did not cae about anything in the game. 


PLEASE fix this for da3.

/rant

Is not related to the books  because ( The stolen throne/The calling) happens years before hawke was born. it is related to DAO when hawke is able to meet character that traveled with the warden and if you're warden was a human mage, Hawke family and the warden ( Amell) are cousins, how is that for related? lol!

"An Eluvian (Elvish for "seeing glass") is a magical mirror featured in the Dalish Elf Origin, the Witch Hunt DLC and Dragon Age II. It is known to be a portal of some sort, and it can transmit the Blight disease. It was crafted by the elves of Arlathan
to be used as portals for telecommunication and perhaps even
teleportation between their cities, using a type of magic different from
that of the modern Circle of Magi or even the Tevinter Imperium.
After the fall of Arlathan, the Tevinter magisters attempted to unlock
the secrets of the Eluvians, but all they could use them for was
long-distance communication."  Demons live  in the fade, just for the IF you have forgotten, the taint came from the fade and finding tainted mirrors is not strange nor irrelevelant.

The demon who was trying to fool Merril only sought to use the Eluvian to escape from its prison and would have killed or possessed Merrill in the process.

What "they" are doing is expanding Thedas, Thedas is NOT Ferelden, thedas didn't stop after the Archdemon was killed, think of thedas like Planet earth, after a huge landslide the surviver keep going with their lives, they marry/ party and start wars..  meh.

the rest of you're post is alot of QQ on it, i won't be part of it.

The game was not as good as DAO but is 100% better that Skyrim and am happy.

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

They were praying to Andraste.

To save them from this crazed blood mage? 

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He used one bloody spell to raise the dead that lasted two seconds. I think he can manage to say "And you men attack too!"

Well, he was also ranting. Well, ranting AND raising the undead.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The map does continue past the room Decimus and Grace were holed in at. The PC can't go there, but the map obviously goes on past that point.

The map "continues" past that point, but only because it's the same map recycled from other missions. In-game, a second exit doesn't exist.

Really, if they had another way out, why not just use it?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

2) because he was unjustly made to be an insane character when he's actually not.

That's some serious "Death of the Author" stylings you got going on there, Ethereal.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Point being, using his name as evidence against his character has no basis, especially when his name may have a different meaning in Thedas then it does here.

I don't pretend to have any insight into Thedan naming conventions. However, from a creative standpoint, there's a reason why an author tends to assign ominous or meaningful names to certain characters. You don't assign a name like, say, SKELETOR to a minor character who reads bedtime stories to sick children. Likewise, there's a good reason why our protagonist isn't named "Pennyweather" or "Smithers".

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

They provide some insight into her spiral into a lust for power and insanity -- though nothing about her Clown Make-up Syndrome  -- but do give a bit of insight into blood magic. My issue being just that if she was going to be made insane and power-hungry, codexes showing that descent should've been present in Act 1 where she appears and not 3 years later.

Their purpose isn't really to provide insight into Tarohne's mindset, as she was simply evil. Their actual purpose, should the player pursue it, is to bring Hawke into a confrontation with Xebenkeck. This is a subplot that began with Gaxkhang in Origins and, I imagine, will continue with Imshael in DA3.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Having sane characters makes the game more compelling than just "MUAHAHAHAHAHA I'm evil!!!"

Hey, I'm all for complex characters. But I also like the odd character who is unapologetically evil. They can be a lot of fun. Uldred was one of my favourite baddies from Origins because he was such a colossal ham.

Just as there are room for Loghains, there should also be Arl Howes.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 16 décembre 2011 - 05:49 .

[Bayz]

bluebullets wrote...

 NOTHING in this game relate to ANYTHING in the books, or DA:O... 

The iluvian are supposed to be portals past the fade, but the one merill reconstructs is just a demon portal, and this is just an irrelevant speck on the da2 storyline.. 
da2 is ust about some guy who saves some city from an insane chick. 

All we know is that flemmeth survived by hawke's hand. Other than that, the game had NOTHING to do with the books, lore, or da:o. 


That said, I see what they are going for.. I think.. A big war between the mages and the templars. But I don't see what any of this has to do with whatever flemeth is planning.

To be quite honest, DA2 was terrible, even though it was a 7.5-8.0 game. Hawke was the worst "hero" in any game ever. He hadn't done anything proactive in his entire life..

He didn't do anything when his brother ran at the big bad ogre, He couldn't kill the blood mage in the cave.. The useless fruitball couldn't even go up to his mom and say "hey mom. Some serial killer is sending out white lillies. beware"

---

I think this game was the least thought out, pathetic, of all bioware's games.
First off, they killed my sibling, and there was no characterization, so I did not care. They also killed my mother, but yet, I did not care..
They did a ton of this stuff expecting me to care about Hawke, but it had no impact. No depth. Hawke was an idiot so I did not cae about anything in the game. 


PLEASE fix this for da3.

/rant

Nope it has nothing to do with it. Except for the Chantry, the Circle, the Templars, the Qunari, the fact that the Fereldean characters come from Lothering, Flemmeth, The Dalish, Merril continuing the Dalish Origin history, the fact that if you sided with the Werewolves you will have some girls in the Dalish camp asking you to help her find a cure, the Darkspawn, Nathaniel ****ing Howe, Anders and Justice, Leliana Zevran and Alistair and Teagan making cameos and commenting how ****ed up the relations between Orlais and everywhere else were getting bad due to Orlais getting butthurt because they could not arrange a marriage between Cailan and the Empress...whew there is probably more I just can't be bothered to remember.

For the second bit I do agree that it is hard to care about people in DA2, but I think it is a problem that has to do with me, I didn't really cared too much about NPC's in Origins either, and in real life I tend not to do with people...so yeah, guess I'm wired that way...

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

To save them from this crazed blood mage? 

Nope. To save them from the Templars

Well, he was also ranting. Well, ranting AND raising the undead.

What ranting? He said two sentences and then raised the dead. It's not that hard for him to go "And you attack too if you want to be free and not go back to the Circle!"

The map "continues" past that point, but only because it's the same map recycled from other missions. In-game, a second exit doesn't exist.

The second exit might exist. Just because it's a recycled map doesn't mean that the exit might not be real.

Really, if they had another way out, why not just use it?

Well, Grace is a horrible leader.

That's some serious "Death of the Author" stylings you got going on there, Ethereal.

Hey, it's true. Decimus was a good leader that was made insane for no reason.

I don't pretend to have any insight into Thedan naming conventions. However, from a creative standpoint, there's a reason why an author tends to assign ominous or meaningful names to certain characters. You don't assign a name like, say, SKELETOR to a minor character who reads bedtime stories to sick children. Likewise, there's a good reason why our protagonist isn't named "Pennyweather" or "Smithers".

Yes but Decimus means "tenth" in Latin. Perhaps he's the tenth child in his family. Maybe his family just liked the sound of it. Who knows. To stretch it to say "It sounds close to decimate, therefore he's rightfully insane" isn't right.

And I demand a protagonist named Pennyweather now. Or Skips.

Their purpose isn't really to provide insight into Tarohne's mindset, as she was simply evil. Their actual purpose, should the player pursue it, is to bring Hawke into a confrontation with Xebenkeck. This is a subplot that began with Gaxkhang in Origins and, I imagine, will continue with Imshael in DA3.

I know that's their primary purpose, but the secondary purpose is to give more insight into how Tarohne came to think the way she did.

That's my issue. The secondary purpose should've been present in Act 1 when we meet her.

Hey, I'm all for complex characters. But I also like the odd character who is unapologetically evil. They can be a lot of fun. Uldred was one of my favourite baddies from Origins because he was such a colossal ham.

Just as there are room for Loghains, there should also be Arl Howes.

Problem being that DAII had very few complex characters.

DAII should've had many of them to help make the entire story complex. But it didn't, and the story ultimately suffered for it.