1667 réponses à ce sujet

[Labrev]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

And I can get to say "I told you so" because Cerberus turned out to be as evil as they are stupid and you will keep defending them because you don't know any better.

If you are proud to champion bad writing then be my guest. I suppose then that I understand your hatred of Cerberus a lot better. They were always one-dimensional punch-clock villains (apparently) and those kinds of villains suck. So I guess we've found common ground.

The bad-writing card works both ways, and is completely subjective.

If you thought ME2 Cerberus was well-written, well, that's the Cerberus I didn't trust and believed to betray me (as did many others). So if and when they do, the bad-writing card really doesn't work here. We saw them for what they were then, and still are now.

[DiebytheSword]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Random Nobody wrote...

...I don't see how Cerberus' betrayal is anything but expected. All you ever hear is, "Cerberus is going to screw you, Shep."

This again. It always comes down this and I never get an answer.

Everyone in the game says "Cerberus can't be trusted" yes. However you know what they don't say? They don't say WHY Cerberus can't be trusted. We are just supposed to take it at face value that we can't trust them without ever being given a reason.

Why can't I trust them? So far they've been a bigger help than any of the supposedly "trustworthy" factions and they actually recognize the threat. Cerberus and I also have the exact same politics, the same beliefs, the same goals.

So why can't they be trusted? I need a logical reason. I need an explanation as to why I shouldn't invest anything in them.

Using your own results orientated logic, it stands to reason that Shepard is only an ally while convenient.  That is not an alliance of anything but convenience.  As soon as the convenience ends, so will TIM's tolerance of Shepard's continued existence.  A Spectre and Alliance Marine who's goals no longer co-exists with TIM will find himself the target of several assasination techniques until said person is gone.  One only needs look as far as Kohaku to see that, and he was an Admiral.


Sure you could argue that you could stay aligned with TIM, but its important to remember that TIM's only ally in his fight to elevate humanity is TIM.  Everything else is expendable in the name of results.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

It's sad that you really believe this.

Ah, yes, because every other race really matters once everyone's dead. 

You know, an attitude like yours is the reason why we'll never have anything nice.

[Harmless Citizen]

Sure but when you wield it has no meaning because you can never put forward an intelligent or objective defense of your position. I can.

Can't tell if serious.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

It's sad that you really believe this.

Ah, yes, because every other race really matters once everyone's dead. 

You know, an attitude like yours is the reason why we'll never have anything nice.

Seconded

[spirosz]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sure but when you wield it has no meaning because you can never put forward an intelligent or objective defense of your position. I can.

Oh, the irony. 

[Kaiser Shepard]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

And I can get to say "I told you so" because Cerberus turned out to be as evil as they are stupid and you will keep defending them because you don't know any better.

If you are proud to champion bad writing then be my guest. I suppose then that I understand your hatred of Cerberus a lot better. They were always one-dimensional punch-clock villains (apparently) and those kinds of villains suck. So I guess we've found common ground.

The bad-writing card works both ways, and is completely subjective.

If you thought ME2 Cerberus was well-written, well, that's the Cerberus I didn't trust and believed to betray me (as did many others). So if and when they do, the bad-writing card really doesn't work here. We saw them for what they were then, and still are now.

No, they were made into what you thought they were, because Bioware could only pander to the lowest common denominator. Same goes for a great deal of other characters...

[InvincibleHero]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Defenders of humanity, even though the only thing we need to defend ourself against is the Reapers,

It's sad that you really believe this.

Who else needs to be defended against?

I would guess against all the aliens and what are human interests. I don't disagree but it has to take a backseat to mere survival at this point in time. Political moves and undercutting serve little purpose but to weaken a unified front to the reapers. After that business as usual can resume as usual where every species tries to prove the competition of the fittest and might makes right doctrines.

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 02 décembre 2011 - 04:20 .

[Eclipse_9990]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Who else needs to be defended against?

The geth. The batarians. The turians. The salarians. The asari. Possibly the quarians. The krogan.

Prett much every species out there could harm humanity. Capabilities are what matter, not intent. Intents can change, and quickly. We must always be prepared.

You wanna hurt all of these races? Why? Because they "may" be a threat, because they're different? Might as well start killing every tree we see; those ****ers hurt when they fall on you. 

So yeah; what I'm gathering is you supported Cerberus because you want humanity to be on top(), and rule over the other races(:sick:) eh? What makes humans so special? 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 02 décembre 2011 - 04:22 .

[spirosz]

Saphra Deden wrote...

spiros9110 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sure but when you wield it has no meaning because you can never put forward an intelligent or objective defense of your position. I can.

Oh, the irony. 

The "Oh the irony"'s and "Can't tell if serious" responses are further proof of that.

Explain to me how Mass Effect succeeds as a story. Talk about the way it is put together, don't just tell me that it is good because you like it.

I like bad movies sometimes but I can still explain why the movie is bad based on the way it was constructed as a film.

Mass Effect, as a story, has numerous failings and ME3 brings these failings to the forefront.

You're stating my point exactly.  You, that's the key word.  You don't think it's good writing, so you keep calling it a failure.  Again, I said that's fine, but if you're not willing to understand the other person's viewpoint, then all these arguments are going to become mute.  You're basically hitting yourself into a wall over and over again because only your opinion is the right one, at least in the way you express your posts.  

Modifié par spiros9110, 02 décembre 2011 - 04:27 .

[Eclipse_9990]

Saphra Deden wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

I don't disagree but it has to take a backseat to mere survival at this point in time. Political moves and undercutting serve little purpose but to weaken a unified front to the reapers.

It's a good thing nobody suggested undercutting anybody... except for the Paragons of the universe. You know, the ones who thought it as a good idea to blow up the Collector base when it was our single greatest opportunity to gain a lead on the Reapers. Or the one who thought now was a great time to try and destroy Cerberus completely even though they, and they alone, were working to thwart the Reaper threat?

That kind of undercutting, is that what you're talking about?

A lead? What? I never understand when people say this. It was their technology. Whats to stop them from having something better or turning the Reaper tech against the users? 

[Harmless Citizen]

Don't expect to get a serious response if you start with asserting that the person you're talking to can't form an "intelligent defence." That in itself is no argument at all. If you think it's bad writing, it's your burden to clearly outline your reasoning.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The geth. The batarians. The turians. The salarians. The asari. Possibly the quarians. The krogan.

Prett much every species out there could harm humanity. Capabilities are what matter, not intent. Intents can change, and quickly. We must always be prepared.

We are prepared. It's called having fleets of thousands of ships. It's called having a race's trust. It's called not provoking anyone. It's called trying to coexist. It's called swallowing your pride and sacrifice a bit of yourself for once to form peace.

Not that the batarians will survive ME3.

The geth will be too busy forming true unity. The turians will be too busy rebuilding, the same with the asari (especially the asari), the salarians have no reason to expand or attack anyone if they get supplies to rebuild and the quarians will be too busy recolonizing their homeworld. The krogans will expand, but under control. Pessimism, doubts, mistrust and the attempts at controlling all the forces of the universe in the same way Cerberus does it have and will always lead to misery.

Newsflash: Cerberus has lost. Cerberus will always lose. Get a job, sir.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 02 décembre 2011 - 04:28 .

[Harmless Citizen]

And calling your opinion "objective" doesn't make it so. That's an oxymoron, just FYI.

[spirosz]

Saphra Deden wrote...

spiros9110 wrote...

You're stating my point exactly.  You, that's the key word.  You don't think it's good writing, so you keep calling it a failure.  Again, I said that's fine, but if you're not willing to understand the other person's viewpoint,

I understand their viewpoint just fine. That's how I know with such certainty that it's worthless.

Lol, there we go again.  Good luck with that mindset. 

[Kaiser Shepard]

Random Nobody wrote...

And calling your opinion "objective" doesn't make it so. That's an oxymoron, just FYI.

Saph isn't expressing an opinion, but an observation.