1667 réponses à ce sujet

[DiebytheSword]

Saphra Deden wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

Using your own results orientated logic, it stands to reason that Shepard is only an ally while convenient.

No, it means he is only an ally so long as they have mutual goals. Their mutual goals extend far beyond the Reapers. Renegade Shepard is very pro-human incase you'd forgotten.

Even Renegade Shepard won't tolerate being pushed around forever, so while this line of reasoning is fine for a short while, even you must conceed that at one point either TIM or Shepard will attempt to be on top.  The day that TIM percieves that this is changing, is the day that Shepard will have lost his mutual goals status, as I'm sure that Shepard won't roll over and die for the greater good of getting out of TIMs way.

Saphra Deden wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

Everything else is expendable in the name of results.

The Council and Alliance think you are expendable too so I don't know why you single TIM out for this.

As soon as you weren't convenient for them both were quiet happy to throw you out.

I've also never considered TIM a friend or confident, just an ally. I trust him with my life, I trust him with our collective cause.

You are quite right, but once again you assume that I trust the council, or that I would hand them advanced reaper technology.  Thus TIM is never singled out for this per se, we are talking about Renegade Shepard who destroyed the council, and replaced it with Humans or Human led puppets remember?

I've never considered anyone outside of Shepards crew more than an ally.  I similarly don't trust Anderson, the council, certainly not Udina, nor even Hackett, so I fail to see the bite in your final remark.  They are trusted only insofar as they give me authority or materiel, the same reason TIM was tolerated in ME2.  Neither the paragon allies nor the renegade ones are trusted with my Shepard's life because they all endanger it through orders or ploys.  None of them are trusted with Shepard's goals because we've seen both sides try to exceed their grasp with their reach.

Life in the black ops is a ****, and I don't pretend otherwise.

Modifié par DiebytheSword, 02 décembre 2011 - 04:33 .

[Omega4RelayResident]

DiebytheSword wrote...

Soccer FeverMan wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Too bad. For those who give the base to TIM, anyway.

Me? I don't feel comfortable giving a glorified blender to the people that would gladly kidnap the glorified fruits/vegetables/whatever people put in blenders.

Oh me personally i rather put my idiotic feelings of moral superiority and not grasp at non existent hope and actually have a concrete resource that could help me defeat my enemy.

but thats just me....just saying 

And it begins, we can't have a nice debate because nobody tolerates anyone else's ideas.  Is it hard to say you disagree and express your ideas without using "idiot" and "moral superiority"?

Dude all threads end at the inevitable impass....



..... you should know this buy now. I hear Stanley Woo creeping around the corner ladies and gentlemen. Say what you have to say as quickly as possible.

[Labrev]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

The bad-writing card works both ways, and is completely subjective.

Sure but when you wield it has no meaning because you can never put forward an intelligent or objective defense of your position. I can.

The irony of your statement is remarkable.

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

And I can get to say "I told you so" because Cerberus turned out to be as evil as they are stupid and you will keep defending them because you don't know any better.

If you are proud to champion bad writing then be my guest. I suppose then that I understand your hatred of Cerberus a lot better. They were always one-dimensional punch-clock villains (apparently) and those kinds of villains suck. So I guess we've found common ground.

The bad-writing card works both ways, and is completely subjective.

If you thought ME2 Cerberus was well-written, well, that's the Cerberus I didn't trust and believed to betray me (as did many others). So if and when they do, the bad-writing card really doesn't work here. We saw them for what they were then, and still are now.

No, they were made into what you thought they were, because Bioware could only pander to the lowest common denominator. Same goes for a great deal of other characters...

I reject both of those ideas, long have.

First of all, let me say my first ME2 play (played it new to the series) I really understood nothing that was going on beside for one thing: do not trust Cerberus. Literally, everyone and their grandma told me this in the game. Chiefly, that they "betray their allies" or whatever. And I didn't. TIM was actively lying to me, even if he could justify it, and his reasons for lying really were not very good.

So, that the warnings about them were countless in the game alone is enough to show this is not them "pandering" to anyone. I would bet the farm that they had this sub-plot planned WAAYYYY before there was ever a majority to pander to.

If anything, what they are in ME3 was much too predictable.

And really, what's going to happen in ME3 is something I saw coming from a mile away. That again, was while not understanding completely what a Reaper even was. It was just like "Yeah, give them this tech so they can turn around and use it against the galaxy themselves? Right." Of course, I eventually learned it's not that simple and the choice became harder, but it still came back to the same thing.

Not to mention, they can't conduct a safe experiment to save their lives. Literally, always getting themselves all killed in cell-implosions. I did them a favor.

And to that note, I would agree Cerberus is not completely well-written. They're a very interesting entity, but fail far too much to be taken seriously. If not for that, the end-game decision becomes hard. As is, it's not even a choice IMO.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

That's all well and good, but it's enough enough. We need advanced technologies like the Normandy and EDI to maintain the effectiveness of those fleets. Technology is not stagnant.

Trust does not mean much. Interests are what matter and any race, no matter how "nice", will turn against us if it is in their interests to do so.

The only sure thing is strength and the power to have the freedom to decide our own fate and actions.

There's nothing that says that we must provoke wars or battles while developing these new technologies either.

Did you see anyone start a war over the creation of the Normandy? Was it the result of a war? No. Quite the opposite. It was the result of a cooperation between two races.

[Eclipse_9990]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

A lead? What? I never understand when people say this. It was their technology. Whats to stop them from having something better or turning the Reaper tech against the users? 

It was a chance to study how Reaper technology works in a controlled environment with a Reaper-making factory. The Reapers won't have anything better because this will show us where all their tech comes from. It is a chance to even the playing field and even gain an advantage by finding weaknesses to exploit, if any.

How would they turn the tech against us? You see, you are just giving into fear. You don't understand Reaper tech so you are afraid of it. I understand that, but to have any hope of standing up to Reaper tech we need to know how it works. We don't have to use it, but we'd better know how to counter it.

I'm wasting my words on you though, clearly these concepts are too advanced for you.

Bold One: What? Dude it was ONE base. You know how many bases the reapers have? A hell of a lot more than one, and who's to say that base had the Grade A Reaper ****?
That base could have been the equivalent of a watch making factory for all you know. 

Bold Two: Dude; if the Geth can do stuff like that, than I'm sure the Reapers can.

Bold Three: It's not fear its caution. There is a difference; we know the reapers are amazing, super powerful, and awesome like that. Who is to say that they can't turn the equipment that they made against the people using it? Besides the main reason I destroyed that base wasn't because of fear it was because I don't trust Cerberus, and I freakin knew they were going to try, and abuse it, and end up hurting the other races(including humans). 

Bold Four: Wow seriously? Thats what you have to say to me? Man your arrogance is astounding; I don't know whether I should be offended or amused. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 02 décembre 2011 - 04:42 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I almost feel sorry for you Saphra.

But then I remember just how much of an ass you are.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Bold One: What? Dude it was ONE base. You know how many bases the reapers have a hell of a lot more than that one, and who's to say that base had the Grade A Reaper ****?
That base could have been the equivalent of a watch making factory for all you know. 

Bold Two: Dude; if the Geth can do stuff like that, than I'm sure the Reapers can.

Bold Three: It's not fear its caution. There is a difference. We know the reapers are amazing, and super powerful, and awesome like that. Who is to say that they can't turn the equipment that they made against the people using it? Besides the main reason I destroyed that base wasn't because of fear it was because I don't trust Cerberus, and I freakin knew they were going to try, and abuse it, and end up hurting the other races(including humans). 

Agreed...

@Grand Admiral Cheesecake

Agreed...

EDIT: Agrees with Spiros below this post... LOOK DOWN!

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 02 décembre 2011 - 04:41 .

[spirosz]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sweety, understanding an opposing view point does not mean you automatically think it has any real foundation. All it means is that you know how the other side came to that position.

For example I understand why people are religious or believe in a higher power because I once did too. However I also know now that it is ignorant and has no real rational basis to it. It is comforting, but not logical. Therefore it is largely "worthless" to me because I don't value comfort over critical thinking.

That's fine, but all I'm trying to say is you don't have to degrade someone else because they have a different perspective from your own.  I even agree with some of your points, but I also have different views towards them, does that make me any more right or wrong than you, no and vise versa.

Modifié par spiros9110, 02 décembre 2011 - 04:41 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

HYR, if they didn't simply make up the plot as they go, and while doing so only do what I said befoire, we wouldn't have gotten several big decisions though which the player could actively aid Cerberus.

Let alone an endgame decision which could - as Thane puts it - make them a giant.

Also, would you kindly remove that part about me in your sig?

[Someone With Mass]

DiebytheSword wrote...

Soccer FeverMan wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Too bad. For those who give the base to TIM, anyway.

Me? I don't feel comfortable giving a glorified blender to the people that would gladly kidnap the glorified fruits/vegetables/whatever people put in blenders.

Oh me personally i rather put my idiotic feelings of moral superiority and not grasp at non existent hope and actually have a concrete resource that could help me defeat my enemy.

but thats just me....just saying 

And it begins, we can't have a nice debate because nobody tolerates anyone else's ideas.  Is it hard to say you disagree and express your ideas without using "idiot" and "moral superiority"?

And there you have the reason why I won't bother being "civilized" with people like FeverMan. Because they always assume I have some sort of malfunction the second I do things differently and expresses that in a pretty insulting manner.

AKA: I won't waste my breath on them, trying to come up with an argument, because I know it'll always come back as: "lol, you Paragons have some sort of superiority complex and have no morals. Just cuz."

[111987]

Handing over Reaper technology to a group like Cerberus, whom has shown in the past that they aren't prepared to share things that would take advantages away from them (Derelict Reaper, anyone?), isn't a great option.

It wouldn't exactly endear the other races to trust Shepard knowing he gave a rogue, human-supremacist group advanced Reaper technology that could potentially give them the tools to achieve their goals of human dominance. They would be very mistrustful of Shepard, and without the trust, and therefore cooperation of the other species, the Reapers can't be beaten. If the other races think humanity is in a position after the war to dominate the galaxy, they will be thinking ahead.

They could choose, for example, to not invest resources into taking back Earth. Eliminate the post-war threat posed by humanity.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I won't waste my breath on them, trying to come up with an argument, because I know it'll always come back as: "lol, you Paragons have some sort of superiority complex and have no morals. Just cuz."

What, you still claim to have morals after that little stunt you pulled earlier today?

[Omega4RelayResident]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

HYR, if they didn't simply make up the plot as they go, and while doing so only do what I said befoire, we wouldn't have gotten several big decisions though which the player could actively aid Cerberus.

Let alone an endgame decision which could - as Thane puts it - make them a giant.

Also, would you kindly remove that part about me in your sig?

Yeah Kaiser does not desrve that kind of treatment... doing that in your sig is just not cool. Voicing your opinion in a post that will EVENTUALLY die is one thing but that is totally F***ed.

[MisterJB]

Someone With Mass wrote...
It's called having fleets of thousands of ships.

Their fleets are bigger and they have more dreadnoughts than us.
 

It's called having a race's trust.

That is simply and utterly impossible. You can have someone's trust but you can't have the trust of an entire species. 
The other races will always try to use humanity for their benefit just like they use each other. That's simply a natural fact, it's how the universe works. The only reasons the turians don't destroy the asari and salarians is because they know they would loose more than they would gain.
 

It's called not provoking anyone.

We didn't provoke anyone and the batarians, turians and geth all still attacked us.
 

It's called trying to coexist.

No one suggested we should destroy the other races.

It's called swallowing your pride and sacrifice a bit of yourself for once to form peace.

Acceptable but only if that peace is favorable to us. Let's say that the turians demand humanity to confine themselves to the Sol system. Should we swallow our pride and sacrifice ourselves to form peace?

Not that the batarians will survive ME3.

The batarians openly practiced slavery when they were still a council race, they annexed an asari world. They isolated themselves. Humanity is not that foolish.

The turians will be too busy rebuilding, the same with the asari (especially the asari),

You don't know that. We might suffer more losses than the turians and they decide that this is the perfect time to wipe us out.
 

the salarians have no reason to expand or attack anyone if they get supplies to rebuild

I can't understand this reasoning. The salarians don't need a special reason to expand, expanding is its own reward.
Why does a man with a million dollars wants another million? Human or alien, people are greedy. It's that simple.

The krogans will expand,but under control.

Again, you don't know that. You just said that the turians will be too busy rebuilding. Who keeps the krogan in check, then?
 
 

Pessimism, doubts, mistrust

Sadly, doubts and mistrust is what keeps you alive.
Also, pessimist is what an optimist calls a realist.
 

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 décembre 2011 - 04:50 .

[Someone With Mass]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Bold One: What? Dude it was ONE base. You know how many bases the reapers have? A hell of a lot more than one, and who's to say that base had the Grade A Reaper ****?
That base could have been the equivalent of a watch making factory for all you know. 

Plus, there's no good reason why Harbinger would store the blueprints to a Reaper in the base when he can store them in his head. Where they're really safe.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

HYR, if they didn't simply make up the plot as they go, and while doing so only do what I said befoire, we wouldn't have gotten several big decisions though which the player could actively aid Cerberus.

Let alone an endgame decision which could - as Thane puts it - make them a giant.

Also, would you kindly remove that part about me in your sig?

Yeah Kaiser does not desrve that kind of treatment... doing that in your sig is just not cool. Voicing your opinion in a post that will EVENTUALLY die is one thing but that is totally F***ed.

He's right.

Kaiser may be...well Kaiser but that's a bit much.

Just trade childish insults like everyone else does.

[Someone With Mass]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

What, you still claim to have morals after that little stunt you pulled earlier today?

Well, worse people claim to have them all the damn time, so I see no reason why I can't.

Also, learn the definition.

[Someone With Mass]

Cthulhu42 wrote...
Out of curiosity, what did you do earlier today?

Nothing of lasting importance. Let's leave it at that.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Saphra Deden wrote...

So what is going to happen then? Will Shepard drift from employer to employer, sticking around until he is tired of being pushed around and then leaving? Makes sense I guess. Shepard got tired of the Alliance and left them. Then he left Council. Now he leaves Cerberus. I get it. 

Like as if Shep doesnt have the resources of the SB at his disposal...

Shep: "Hey Liara you still have the SB Base up and running?"

Liara: "Not really but it can be again."

Shep: "Good. My resume looks a bit spotty. Lets shake things up."

You have no foresight into causality and probability do you Saphra?

[InvincibleHero]

Saphra Deden wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

I don't disagree but it has to take a backseat to mere survival at this point in time. Political moves and undercutting serve little purpose but to weaken a unified front to the reapers.

It's a good thing nobody suggested undercutting anybody... except for the Paragons of the universe. You know, the ones who thought it as a good idea to blow up the Collector base when it was our single greatest opportunity to gain a lead on the Reapers. Or the one who thought now was a great time to try and destroy Cerberus completely even though they, and they alone, were working to thwart the Reaper threat?

That kind of undercutting, is that what you're talking about?

Yeah both sides do seem to fit.  I meant inter-species strife for galactic power ie council races vs others mainly. I don't think Cerberus on its own can constitute humanity undercutting anyone. The Alliance can well screw up on its own and has. They also did things right too like stand up to Turians and eventually gain council status. However, I wouldn't trust the turians and asari and salarians to give up their interest in making their race come out best either. I just meant overt attempts should be curtailed since ultimately making the asari fall (thorugh our own actions deliberately) might lead to our own doom. Now after the victory then I say anything's fair game not that I would necessarily do it except well my 2 renegade playthroughs might entertain options.