1667 réponses à ce sujet

[Labrev]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

HYR, if they didn't simply make up the plot as they go, and while doing so only do what I said befoire, we wouldn't have gotten several big decisions though which the player could actively aid Cerberus.

Let alone an endgame decision which could - as Thane puts it - make them a giant.

I don't follow. Just because we made decisions to aid them doesn't mean it couldn't have been planned.

What aid are we talking about, the Rawlings data? Eclipse cargo? Geth salvage? There were options not to. I suppose you could've not done the smuggled-cargo thing if you're that extremely against Cerberus (I think most would agree they're better than Eclipse though).

The endgame decision was more than about just Cerberus, wasn't it? There were reasons to keep it even if you don't support/trust them. It's just harder to do if you don't, but it hasn't stopped people.

[Someone With Mass]

Oh, and just a heads-up: I won't bother replying when people are mixing quotes with their own comments, because that is such busywork I'm really not in the mood for.

[111987]

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

Handing over Reaper technology to a group like Cerberus, whom has shown in the past that they aren't prepared to share things that would take advantages away from them (Derelict Reaper, anyone?), isn't a great option.

So you think it is better that no group has access to this advanced technology in a fight for survival than at least one group?

That doesn't make sense. You haven't thought this through.

I'd rather give the base to the turians than just destroy it because then at least somebody might get something useful out of it and save me whilst in the process of saving themselves.

That's different because the Turians are a species, while Cerberus is a group of 150 agents. And based off their whole human dominance thing and the ridiculousness of them not sharing the existence of a Derelict Reaper with the rest of the galaxy shows me that even if they gained something useful from the base, they would keep it to themselves and use it to achieve their own goals; securing human dominance in the galaxy. That can't be a primary goal with the Reapers on the march.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Like as if Shep doesnt have the resources of the SB at his disposal...

That's an information network. It will be great for disseminating the advances from the base, but it can't research it. It wasn't an option in any case.

An information network with assassins, storm troops, technology (ship is proof of that), and investments all providing huge amounts of financial resources.

Financial resources can PAY FOR ANYTHING you might need done. Pay to get quality researchers. After all it had a Spectre in its employment... why not a few Salarian STG members.

[Eclipse_9990]

MisterJB wrote...

It's called not provoking anyone.

We didn't provoke anyone and the batarians, turians and geth all still attacked us.
 

It's called swallowing your pride and sacrifice a bit of yourself for once to form peace.

Acceptable but only if that peace is favorable to us. Let's say that the turians demand humanity to confine themselves to the Sol system. Should we swallow our pride and sacrifice ourselves to form peace?

The turians will be too busy rebuilding, the same with the asari (especially the asari),

You don't know that. We might suffer more losses than the turians and they decide that this is the perfect time to wipe us out.
 

the salarians have no reason to expand or attack anyone if they get supplies to rebuild

I can't understand this reasoning. The salarians don't need a special reason to expand, expanding is its own reward.
Why does a man with a million dollars wants another million? Human or alien, people are greedy. It's that simple.

The krogans will expand,but under control.

Again, you don't know that. You just said that the turians will be too busy rebuilding. Who keeps the krogan in check, then?
 
 

Pessimism, doubts, mistrust

Sadly, doubts and mistrust is what keeps you alive.
Also, pessimist is what an optimist calls a realist.
 

Bold One:

The Turians: Turians had good reason, due to the whole Mass Effect Relay shtic they were just doing their job on account of the of the Rachni incident. 

Batarians: Yeah your probably right.

Geth: They were being controlled by Reapers, and they were attacking every race not just humies. 

Bold Two: What makes you think the Turians would do that? I simply don't see it. Though I can see Batarians trying that. 

Bold Three: Again what makes you think the Turians would do that? The Turians aren't the type to hold a grudge that way. Sure I can see Krogans, Batarians, or even Humans doing something like that, but Turians? I've yet to see alot of Turians malicious towards humans the first contact war happened ages ago. Most Turians are over it.

Its like still being bitter over the American Revolution; its pointless, and stupid. 

Bold Four: Thinking everyone is out to get you isn't going to do you any favors. It will just make you miserable.(Though I'm not saying to not be cautious; after all, things happen.)

Bold Five: The Genophage that's what.(Unless someone wants to cure it for some reason)

Bold Six: Constantly expecting everything to go to crap doesn't necessarily mean your being "real" it just means you'd rather look at the glass as half empty, and expect the worst from everyone. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 02 décembre 2011 - 04:56 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...
Out of curiosity, what did you do earlier today?

Nothing of lasting importance. Let's leave it at that.

Oh, now that only makes me more intrigued! But I shall drop it.

He discovered where Saphra hides his phylactery and is gathering a happy-go-lucky band of heroes to destroy it.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

What, you still claim to have morals after that little stunt you pulled earlier today?

Well, worse people claim to have them all the damn time, so I see no reason why I can't.

Also, learn the definition.

Out of curiosity, what did you do earlier today?

First, SMW posted this, to which I replied with the post directly under it.

Not too long after that, he pm'ed me, telling me to "do the whole wide world a favor and shut the **** up". Which I casually mentioned a couple of posts down the page, after which this magnificent example of a civil human being with morals had the nerve to take offense at me doing so.

[DiebytheSword]

Saphra Deden wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

Even Renegade Shepard won't tolerate being pushed around forever,

So what is going to happen then? Will Shepard drift from employer to employer, sticking around until he is tired of being pushed around and then leaving? Makes sense I guess. Shepard got tired of the Alliance and left them. Then he left Council. Now he leaves Cerberus. I get it.

I've never considered anyone outside of Shepards crew more than an ally.  I similarly don't trust Anderson, the council, certainly not Udina, nor even Hackett, so I fail to see the bite in your final remark.  They are trusted only insofar as they give me authority or materiel, the same reason TIM was tolerated in ME2. 

Right. Okay, so what are you planning to do about the Reapers? Sooner or later you need to be willing to let your allies do things that you cannot: like Research Reaper making factories.

At this point you are just rambling in a vain attempt to justify the whole "you can't trust Cerberus" tag-line from ME2. You still haven't really explained why Cerberus can't be trusted to continue the fight.

I don't need to trust an ally to use his resources.  Case in point, TIM.  I let my allies do plenty of things, trusting them with things no one should be trusted with is not amongst them.  I don't need to research a Reaper making factory, I need it to stop making Reapers.  One of my options allows it to continue making Reapers, it just changes the monkey at the controls.

What an impressive stretch of the imagination you made there.  Rambling?  Hardly, but if you feel the need to play so be it.  I've already given you my reason, you chose to ignore it.  TIM has never met a pawn he's not willing to sacrifice, I've never met a chess player I'm willing to be a pawn for.  That extends to my Shepard play throughs; there are things I tolerate, but never things I truly serve.

That said, you can continue rambling on about how I somehow didn't present a valid counter-argument to your justification of the "Ceberus is strength for all humanity" tag line from TIM, its clearly what you do best.

Incedentally, this exchange is at an end.  Feel free to post a rebuttal, I will deal with it when I have time for games.

Modifié par DiebytheSword, 02 décembre 2011 - 05:00 .

[Labrev]

Be back in a bit, have fun.

- Tela.

[Someone With Mass]

111987 wrote...

That's different because the Turians are a species, while Cerberus is a group of 150 agents. And based off their whole human dominance thing and the ridiculousness of them not sharing the existence of a Derelict Reaper with the rest of the galaxy shows me that even if they gained something useful from the base, they would keep it to themselves and use it to achieve their own goals; securing human dominance in the galaxy. That can't be a primary goal with the Reapers on the march.

Not to mention that they'll probably need more than their dinky little army to at least slow the Reapers down until they're ready to do whatever it is that they're trying to do, because there won't be much of a humanity left to save, otherwise.

If that's even their goal anymore.

[Someone With Mass]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
First, SMW posted this, to which I replied with the post directly under it.

Not too long after that, he pm'ed me, telling me to "do the whole wide world a favor and shut the **** up". Which I casually mentioned a couple of posts down the page, after which this magnificent example of a civil human being with morals had the nerve to take offense at me doing so.

I only brought what you deserved after your snide remarks that served absolutely no purpose whatsoever. 

[surfgirlusa_2006]

My personal opinion, not intended to offend anyone (really I swear):

Reading through these last 16 pages, I'm rather unsure as to why we're debating the morality of Cerberus. I know everyone has different opinions and all, but as much as I enjoy particular aspects of Bioware games, their recent stories have been pretty derivative and simplistic. I recently finished my first playthrough of Mass Effect 2 so I'm not an expert, but it seems pretty obvious that any organization with vast resources and a large amount of power is going to use it for personal gain. It's the same story that's been told countless times through literature, film and in real world history, so I doubt much will be different here, regardless of player intentions or motivations. That doesn't mean it's necessarily bad if the story is executed well, however.

At this point, I'm more concerned about whether this decision is going to have a measureable effect on the story. Based on Bioware's issues regarding implementing player choices into other recent games (notably Dragon Age 2), I'm not holding incredibly high hopes. (Yes, I know Mass Effect has a different team than Dragon Age. It seems to be a developer wide issue, though).

On a random note, I'm new to the Mass Effect forums (I typically lurk on the Dragon Age forums). So...hi.

Modifié par surfgirlusa_2006, 02 décembre 2011 - 05:04 .

[Omega4RelayResident]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

What, you still claim to have morals after that little stunt you pulled earlier today?

Well, worse people claim to have them all the damn time, so I see no reason why I can't.

Also, learn the definition.

Out of curiosity, what did you do earlier today?

First, SMW posted this, to which I replied with the post directly under it.

Not too long after that, he pm'ed me, telling me to "do the whole wide world a favor and shut the **** up". Which I casually mentioned a couple of posts down the page, after which this magnificent example of a civil human being with morals had the nerve to take offense at me doing so.

Okay SWM may need to learn to lighten up a bit... but even someone like Saphra is not someone I would wish bad things to happen to.

The only person I wish bad things upon NIGHTLY is Aeowyn.... trust me I have very good reasons for doing so.... me and Aeowyn do not have a good history. The past is all f***ed up between us.

I will admit that I have my moments from time to time Kaiser... Im sure you remember your thread about Project Overlord... you remember the heated battle between Lotion and my self. A lot of us have breaking points... being tolerant of intolerance may also be a step in the right direction as well.

[Mecha Tengu]

hey has this thread been godwin'd yet?

[Omega4RelayResident]

surfgirlusa_2006 wrote...

On a random note, I'm new to the Mass Effect forums (I typically lurk on the Dragon Age forums). So...hi.

Nice to meet you and beware.... ME section is filled with trolls, ****s, and fools. This is not going to be a plesant experience for you.

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 02 décembre 2011 - 05:10 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

hey has this thread been godwin'd yet?

No need when we have the actual game doing that for us.

[surfgirlusa_2006]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Nice to meet you and beware.... ME section is filled with trolls, ****s, and fools. This is not going to be a plesant experience for you.

Thanks.  The DA section wasn't particularly fun either, especially back in March.  Right now, everyone is complaining about a rumor regarding multiplayer that may or may not be in DA3 or be a different game altogether.  Good times.

Ok, digression over.  Back to the regularly scheduled programming.

[BlueMagitek]

surfgirlusa_2006 wrote...

My personal opinion, not intended to offend anyone (really I swear):

Reading through these last 16 pages, I'm rather unsure as to why we're debating the morality of Cerberus. I know everyone has different opinions and all, but as much as I enjoy particular aspects of Bioware games, their recent stories have been pretty derivative and simplistic. I recently finished my first playthrough of Mass Effect 2 so I'm not an expert, but it seems pretty obvious that any organization with vast resources and a large amount of power is going to use it for personal gain. It's the same story that's been told countless times through literature, film and in real world history, so I doubt much will be different here, regardless of player intentions or motivations. That doesn't mean it's necessarily bad if the story is executed well, however.

At this point, I'm more concerned about whether this decision is going to have a measureable effect on the story. Based on Bioware's issues regarding implementing player choices into other recent games (notably Dragon Age 2), I'm not holding incredibly high hopes. (Yes, I know Mass Effect has a different team than Dragon Age. It seems to be a developer wide issue, though).

On a random note, I'm new to the Mass Effect forums (I typically lurk on the Dragon Age forums). So...hi.

Hello there~!  As a warning, I should let you know that every topic is secretely a Paragon vs. Renegade topic in disguise.  

I don't want to spoil anything for you (in ME2, which deserves a few more playthroughs if you can manage it), but Cerberus isn't a huge organization with vast resources and a large amount of power.  It's essentially a Black Ops group; it put most of its resources into bringing you back and building your ship.  It doesn't have a fleet, instead it works with small groups of operatives to accomplish a mission.  Granted, it's nothing to sneeze at, but you can't act like they have the same amount of power as their counterparts (Spectres and STG).  And heavens knows what the STG would do with it.

Well, Dragon Age 2 took place away from Ferelden, and even then there should be a few significant differences if you ever return there (namely the state of Orzammar and the Throne, but that's a topic for another time).

[MisterJB]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...
The Turians: Turians had good reason, due to the whole Mass Effect Relay shtic they were just doing their job on account of the of the Rachni incident.

From stoping us from activating a relay to attacking our ships without warning and occupying what could have been our homeworld, goes a long way.

Geth: They were being controlled by Reapers, and they were attacking every race not just humies. 

They were not indocrinated. They attacked us because they believed that doing so would improve their own species.
This applies to every race out there.

Bold Two: What makes you think the Turians would do that? I simply don't see it. Though I can see Batarians trying that. 
Bold Three: Again what makes you think the Turians would do that? The Turians aren't the type to hold a grudge that way. Sure I can see Krogans, Batarians, or even Humans doing something like that, but Turians? I've yet to see alot of Turians malicious towards humans the first contact war happened ages ago. Most Turians are over it.

It's not about the First Contact War. It's about the turians as a people. The turians are imperialistic and when these sort of people sees another species who, in time, can come to rival them, the most logical conclusion is attempt to conquer or destroy these people.
That's most likely what happened during the First Contact War. The relay was just an excuse.

Bold Four: Thinking everyone is out to get you isn't going to do you any favors. It will just make you miserable.(Though I'm not saying to not be cautious; after all, things happen.)

It's not paranoia if someone really is out to get you.
It's better to be miserable Thane who sleeps against a wall than trustful Nihlus who gave his back to Saren.

Bold Five: The Genophage that's what.(Unless someone wants to cure it for some reason)

Didn't you see the Sur'Kesh demo?

Bold Six: Constantly expecting everything to go to crap doesn't necessarily mean your being "real" it just means you'd rather look at the glass as half empty, and expect the worst from everyone. 

By realistic I mean something like this:
The Salarians migth help us retake Earth but only because doing so will help Sur'Kesh somehow.
There is no such thing as a selfless government.

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 décembre 2011 - 05:15 .