1667 réponses à ce sujet

[surfgirlusa_2006]

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

.[/quote]

Hello there~!  As a warning, I should let you know that every topic is secretely a Paragon vs. Renegade topic in disguise.  

I don't want to spoil anything for you (in ME2, which deserves a few more playthroughs if you can manage it), but Cerberus isn't a huge organization with vast resources and a large amount of power.  It's essentially a Black Ops group; it put most of its resources into bringing you back and building your ship.  It doesn't have a fleet, instead it works with small groups of operatives to accomplish a mission.  Granted, it's nothing to sneeze at, but you can't act like they have the same amount of power as their counterparts (Spectres and STG).  And heavens knows what the STG would do with it.

Well, Dragon Age 2 took place away from Ferelden, and even then there should be a few significant differences if you ever return there (namely the state of Orzammar and the Throne, but that's a topic for another time).

[/quote]

I did play through  a second time, but missed out on the original Mass Effect, so my perspective is a little skewed (darn PS3).  Plus, it's after midnight here.  I'm not always perfectly coherent as the night progresses. 

Regarding your other comment (which can also apply to major decsions in Mass Effect 2).  Should there be consequences and significant differences?  Absolutely.  Will there be?  Your guess is as good as mine.  I hope so, but I'm not particularly optimistic on that front.

[CerberusWarrior]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

The geth. The batarians. The turians. The salarians. The asari. Possibly the quarians. The krogan.

Prett much every species out there could harm humanity. Capabilities are what matter, not intent. Intents can change, and quickly. We must always be prepared.

We are prepared. It's called having fleets of thousands of ships. It's called having a race's trust. It's called not provoking anyone. It's called trying to coexist. It's called swallowing your pride and sacrifice a bit of yourself for once to form peace.

Not that the batarians will survive ME3.

The geth will be too busy forming true unity. The turians will be too busy rebuilding, the same with the asari (especially the asari), the salarians have no reason to expand or attack anyone if they get supplies to rebuild and the quarians will be too busy recolonizing their homeworld. The krogans will expand, but under control. Pessimism, doubts, mistrust and the attempts at controlling all the forces of the universe in the same way Cerberus does it have and will always lead to misery.

Newsflash: Cerberus has lost. Cerberus will always lose. Get a job, sir.

   


I'm so thankful Bioware can not pull this crap in Star Wars TOR . no the only ones who won anything were the cry babies from 2 that all but begged Bioware to fix ME 2 well they did and nerfed any form of player choice meaning anything in the process . now ME 3 just like 1 and 2 are games with no real player choice in them at all . nothing effects the game universe. Shepard has to be aligned with the good guys like a lap dog slave in 3 . I thought Shepard was there for players to tell their Shepard's story not tell a story of Shepard that a bunch of paragon fan bots deem is the only story to tell . Screw the alliance and if hackett gets in my way in 3 well he will die like Saren did by the end of my gun

[surfgirlusa_2006]

Saphra Deden wrote...

It's a pity they aren't more passionate.

They had a lot of passion back when the game released and was the total opposite of what many people expected. A large portion of them have now given up on Bioware and are simply apathetic.

[InvincibleHero]

surfgirlusa_2006 wrote...

My personal opinion, not intended to offend anyone (really I swear):

Reading through these last 16 pages, I'm rather unsure as to why we're debating the morality of Cerberus. I know everyone has different opinions and all, but as much as I enjoy particular aspects of Bioware games, their recent stories have been pretty derivative and simplistic. I recently finished my first playthrough of Mass Effect 2 so I'm not an expert, but it seems pretty obvious that any organization with vast resources and a large amount of power is going to use it for personal gain. It's the same story that's been told countless times through literature, film and in real world history, so I doubt much will be different here, regardless of player intentions or motivations. That doesn't mean it's necessarily bad if the story is executed well, however.

At this point, I'm more concerned about whether this decision is going to have a measureable effect on the story. Based on Bioware's issues regarding implementing player choices into other recent games (notably Dragon Age 2), I'm not holding incredibly high hopes. (Yes, I know Mass Effect has a different team than Dragon Age. It seems to be a developer wide issue, though).

On a random note, I'm new to the Mass Effect forums (I typically lurk on the Dragon Age forums). So...hi.

Welcome.  If you're here awhile you'll know how to classify the various users. There are many people that you can have discourse with and not be insulted.

Well an organization doesn't have morality. It is more actions taken by Cerberus and the morality of those deeds vs. outcomes. People paint Cerberus as worse than they are and some champion them as better or at least a   better alternative to Council or Alliance. Other people cannot accept that and throw aspersions at those that would side with cerberus.

Well they are not entirely selfless but I think genuine in their pro-human stance. I believe Illusive Man when he says the survival of humanity is his top goal. The council could give a fig and the alliance is doing the lalala there are no reapears Shepard is crazy routine. They could be Martin and Lewis for all the comedic effect they have.

[Someone With Mass]

CerberusWarrior wrote...


I'm so thankful Bioware can not pull this crap in Star Wars TOR . no the only ones who won anything were the cry babies from 2 that all but begged Bioware to fix ME 2 well they did and nerfed any form of player choice meaning anything in the process . now ME 3 just like 1 and 2 are games with no real player choice in them at all . nothing effects the game universe. Shepard has to be aligned with the good guys like a lap dog slave in 3 . I thought Shepard was there for players to tell their Shepard's story not tell a story of Shepard that a bunch of paragon fan bots deem is the only story to tell . Screw the alliance and if hackett gets in my way in 3 well he will die like Saren did by the end of my gun

Is it really that bad if Shepard goes back to his roots? 

Shepard has been in the Alliance military his whole adult life too. It'd be pretty jarring if he showed no ill will against them before and all of the sudden hates their guts to the point that he'd kill one of their admirals (yeah, good luck getting away with that one) because they didn't give him everything he wanted and painfully reminded him that there's a real world out there, and it doesn't always go as planned and you probably can't have all the glory you deserve.

And to be completely honest, you're the one being a crybaby, because I keep seeing this over and over again in like 90% of all your posts.

[InvincibleHero]

Saphra Deden wrote...

It's a pity they aren't more passionate.

Do you truly equate passion with throwing verbal attacks? ( I generally would not think so though I've seen a few barbs from time to time in your posts.) It is one thing to have fire about which you write and rebut the ideas and opinions of others and another to just sling mud. I can respect passion but not what someone did to Kaiser that is uncalled for.

[Quole]

If you seriously think Cerberus is right in anything they do, other than wanting to kill the reapers, then you are an idiot.

[Eclipse_9990]

MisterJB wrote...

It's not about the First Contact War. It's about the turians as a people. The turians are imperialistic and when these sort of people sees another species who, in time, can come to rival them, the most logical conclusion is attempt to conquer or destroy these people.
That's most likely what happened during the First Contact War. The relay was just an excuse.

What? That.. That is just an asinine assumption. They didn't even know about humans then; how can they know if humans would rival them or not. To the Turians they were just some unknown race of hairless apes to messed with some tech they knew nothing about. They were just doing their job. 

"In 2157 CE. Following Council laws in place since the Rachni Wars which prohibited the activation of uncharted mass relay's, a Turian force opened fire on explorers from an as yet unknown race: humanity."
(Source)

You're sounding really paranoid. 

MisterJB wrote...

It's not paranoia if someone really is out to get you.

But you don't KNOW that they're out to get you.  

Here is one definition of Paranoia: "Suspicion and mistrust of people or their actions without evidence or justification." The only hostile thing the Turians have done to the humans was the first contact war.. Thats it!

If you were talking about the batarians who actively seek to hurt, and abuse humans then your claim would have some backing. 

MisterJB wrote...

It's better to be miserable Thane who sleeps against a wall than trustful Nihlus who gave his back to Saren.

Both options are horrible.

With your Thane analogy you'd rather be a miserable, lonely, bastard, who's only living for the sake of being alive; with your Nihlus analogy your suggesting the other option is to be some dog who gets stepped on, and isn't aware of his surroundings. 

I'd rather be a balance of both, aware enough so I don't get myself or others around me hurt or killed, and trustful enough not to alienate those around me, and to not become a miserable, lonely, bastard. The world isn't black, and white(Thank ****ing God).

MisterJB wrote...

Didn't you see the Sur'Kesh demo?

A bit of it. Your point? If we still have some choice it means I can still stop the Krogans from getting cured. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 02 décembre 2011 - 05:44 .

[Sgt Stryker]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Quole wrote...

If you seriously think Cerberus is right in anything they do, other than wanting to kill the reapers, then you are an idiot.

No you're an idiot!

Sorry, couldn't help it.

[MisterJB]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

What? That.. That is just an asinine assumption. They didn't even know about humans then; how can they know if humans would rival them or not. To the Turians they were just some unknown race of hairless apes to messed with some tech they knew nothing about. They were just doing their job. 

"In 2157 CE. Following Council laws in place since the Rachni Wars which prohibited the activation of uncharted mass relay's, a Turian force opened fire on explorers from an as yet unknown race: humanity."
(Source)

You're sounding really paranoid. 

Their job was to stop us from activating the relay which could have easily been done by standing in front of it and firing warning shots. How do you explain the ocupation of Shanxi as anything else besides pre-emptive strikes against a race that could become powerful?

But you don't KNOW that they're out to get you.  

Here is one definition of Paranoia: "Suspicion and mistrust of people or their actions without evidence or justification." The only hostile thing the Turians have done to the humans was the first contact war.. Thats it!

If you were talking about the batarians who actively seek to hurt, and abuse humans then your claim would have some backing.

The Council has been using humanity for a long while now. The batarians where always a rogue race, even when they obeyed to the Citadel. They practiced slavery and even went so far as to conquer an asari world.
So, the Council used the humans to control the batarians and settle an unstable region at the same time, the Verge. Basically, sic us on the bear and run.
In ME: Revelation, they tried to punish us out of proportions because of AI research. The truth is that this was an attempt to slow humanity's progress.
When the Geth attacked us in the Verge, they refused to send help under the pretense that it was too close to the Terminus System even though there were previous cases of the Council sending fleets even beyond the Verge.
In ME2, they refused to do anything to help our colonies in the Terminus. No fleets, no STG, no Spectres, nothing.

I think, that after all of this, humans are very justified in distrusting the council races.

Both options are horrible.

With your Thane analogy you'd rather be a miserable, lonely, bastard, who's only living for the being alive; with your Nihlus analogy your suggesting the other option is to be some dog who gets stepped on, and isn't aware of his surroundings. 

I'd rather be a balance of both, aware enough so I don't get myself or others around me hurt or killed, and trustful enough not to alienate those around me, and to not become a miserable, lonely, bastard. The world isn't black, and white(Thank ****ing God).

That's fair. There's certainly no point in alienating the other races. It's better to learn from them.

A bit of it. Your point? If we still have some choice it means I can still stop the Krogans from getting cured. 

Only that the option of curing the Genophage seemed mandatory. Perhaps we will have the option of not curing it completely.

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 décembre 2011 - 05:54 .

[surfgirlusa_2006]

[quote]InvincibleHero wrote...

[/quote]
Welcome.  If you're here awhile you'll know how to classify the various users. There are many people that you can have discourse with and not be insulted.

Well an organization doesn't have morality. It is more actions taken by Cerberus and the morality of those deeds vs. outcomes. People paint Cerberus as worse than they are and some champion them as better or at least a   better alternative to Council or Alliance. Other people cannot accept that and throw aspersions at those that would side with cerberus.

Well they are not entirely selfless but I think genuine in their pro-human stance. I believe Illusive Man when he says the survival of humanity is his top goal. The council could give a fig and the alliance is doing the lalala there are no reapears Shepard is crazy routine. They could be Martin and Lewis for all the comedic effect they have. [/quote]

I see where everyone is coming from, but I guess I'm saying I view Cerberus' actions as rather black, as opposed to grey, thus my comments about ME becoming a fairly black and white series (particularly if some rumors from the leaked ME3 script are true).  Anytime you justify a sacrifice by saying it' for the greater good puts you on a very slippery slope.  It can be true, but plenty of individual throughout our history thought that they were promoting the greater good through killing people.  I guess it's a matter of perspective, and in general I see murder and purposely putting people in danger as rather black.  That's just my personal lens, though. 



 

[Eclipse_9990]

MisterJB wrote...

Their job was to stop us from activating the relay which could have easily been done by standing in front of it and firing warning shots. How do you explain the ocupation of Shanxi as anything else besides pre-emptive strikes against a race that could become powerful?

The Turians thought they were going into all out war with the humans. It makes perfect military sense to establish some territory. 

MisterJB wrote...

The Council has been using humanity for a long while now. The batarians where always a rogue race, even when they obeyed to the Citadel. They practiced slavery and even went so far as to conquer an asari world.
So, the Council used the humans to control the batarians and settle an unstable region at the same time, the Verge. Basically, sic us on the bear and run.
In ME: Revelation, they tried to punish us out of proportions because of AI research. The truth is that this was an attempt to slow humanity's progress.
When the Geth attacked us in the Verge, they refused to send help under the pretense that it was too close to the Terminus System even though there were previous cases of the Council sending fleets even beyond the Verge.
In ME2, they refused to do anything to help our colonies in the Terminus. No fleets, no STG, no Spectres, nothing.

I think, that after all of this, humans are very justified in distrusting the council races.

Fair enough, and I see your point. I agree they shouldn't put their complete faith, and trust in the Council, but at the same time they shouldn't be overly cautious. After all most of the distrust from the other races is because the humans are fairly new to the scene; plus the Council, and Council races are treating the humans way better than most people assume. Like I've said humans are fairly new, and yet they're probably being accepted faster than some of the other races.

The Volus for example.

MisterJB wrote...
That's fair. There's certainly no point in alienating the other races. It's better to learn from them.

I agree; I like all of the races(except batarians, and vorcha), and even if everyone doesn't fully trust each other I'd rather see atleast the Turians, Asari, Quarians, Solarians, Volus, and Humans have a stable, happy, and profitable coexistance with each other; because all the races I listed have something to offer, and can benefit the other races in different ways.

Maybe the Krogan as well but they need to get their anger, and savegery under control. 

MisterJB wrote...

Only that the option of curing the Genophage seemed mandatory. Perhaps we will have the option of not curing it completely.

I certainly hope so. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 02 décembre 2011 - 06:14 .

[MisterJB]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

The Turians thought they were going into all out war with the humans. It makes perfect military sense to establish some territory.

According to the source you quoted on your previous posts, after the fall of Shanxi, the turians tought they had defeated the bulk of the human forces and were shocked when reinforcements arrived and took the colony back.
So, the turians were not extablishing territory for an upcoming war, they were occupying what they tought was our homeworld.

Quite frankly, attacking our people who were not aware of the existence of the Citadel with deadly force was inexcusable in the first place.

Fair enough, and I see your point. I agree they shouldn't put their complete faith, and trust in the Council, but at the same time they shouldn't be overly cautious. After all most of the distrust from the other races is because the humans are fairly new to the scene; plus the Council, and Council races are treating the humans way better than most people assume. Like I've said humans are fairly new, and yet they're probably being accepted faster than some of the other races.

The Volus for example.

I think we would disagree on how much cautiousness is too much.

I also wouldn't say we are being accepted so much as we are forcing our presence. The Council has yet to give us anything without an ulterior motive. What we have we paid for in human sweat, blood and tears.
Well, the volus have a natural aptitude for economics but we have only seen one volus scientist and zero volus soldiers. It's no wonder humans expand much faster.

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 décembre 2011 - 06:32 .

[111987]

MisterJB wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

The Turians thought they were going into all out war with the humans. It makes perfect military sense to establish some territory.

According to the source you quoted on your previous posts, after the fall of Shanxi, the turians tought they had defeated the bulk of the human forces and were shocked when reinforcements arrived and took the colony back.
So, the turians were not extablishing territory for an upcoming war, they were occupying what they tought was our homeworld.

I rather doubt that. The Turians thought the bulk of the Alliance fleet was destroyed, but that isn't necesarrily an indication of how large a population is. They easily could have thought that humanity just hadn't developed a masisve fleet and they had only recently discovered mass effect tech.

And since Shanxi couldn't have had a population of more than 4 million, the Turians would have to be incredibly stupid to think that was the human homeworld.

[Eclipse_9990]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

According to the source you quoted on your previous posts, after the fall of Shanxi, the turians tought they had defeated the bulk of the human forces and were shocked when reinforcements arrived and took the colony back.
So, the turians were not extablishing territory for an upcoming war, they were occupying what they tought was our homeworld.[/quote]

I was going to respond to this, but 111987 said what I was going to say.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Quite frankly, attacking our people who were not aware of the existence of the Citadel with deadly force was inexcusable in the first place. [/quote]

You're right; maybe the Turians were a bit overzealous with their intentions, and maybe they should have used a more cushioned approach, but that's a lot of maybe's, and it was a long time ago. No race is perfect, and humans have done similiar things to their own species for much less benevolent purposes(not that I'm excusing what the Turians did, but I'm just saying), and learned to move on from that.

You must learn from your past, but at the same time not let the past control you. 

[quote]MisterJB wrote...
What we have we paid for in human sweat, blood and tears.[/quote]

That's the whole point. The humans have to show, and earn their place in the new society. No one's going to, nor want's to hold their hand. The humans would probably do the same exact thing. [/quote]

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 02 décembre 2011 - 06:56 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

The only person I wish bad things upon NIGHTLY is Aeowyn.... trust me I have very good reasons for doing so.... me and Aeowyn do not have a good history. The past is all f***ed up between us.

Don't you think it would have been best if you'd kept this thought to yourself, though? Because that was entirely unnecessary.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Drone223 wrote...
"Your completely ruthless the next thing I know you'll be wanting to grow your own Reaper" that does sound like something TIM would do

Just because you say it doesn't make it so. What proof do you have that TIM would do something like that?

And what does it matter, given the reaper threat?
A thousand reapers are coming. 1 reaper won't make a difference. The base might.

[ultimatekotorfan]

Ieldra2 wrote...

C9316 wrote...
What's with the bitterness bro?

Why the hell include a Renegade path that occasionally has very reasonable pragmatic decisions (yes, I agree that others are incredibly dickish, but I'm not talking about these) if it's just a setup for failure? My issues:

(1) The "moral" message that being pragmatic makes you fail is so much full of bullsh*t you can't find a container big enough to dispose of it in the whole galaxy.

(2) Making one side a setup for failure is a broken promise on the developer's part. They don't even have the decency to acknowledge that decisions the likes of the Paragon ones often have a cost. No, not only will the Renegades have to live with the (acknowledged and unavoidable) ethical fallout of their decisions, no, the universe kicks them in the face for good measure by never letting the results the decision was made for materialize. Every single goddamn time. Paragon Shepard is the biggest Marty Stu in gaming.

(3) Why the hell did we even bother thinking about the decisions? Well, because we thought that the consequences or our decisions would be somewhat realistic. Some gambles pay off, some fail. Well, not in the ME universe, no. Not if Paragon Shepard is involved. Then the universe magically changes circumstances to let him win, and magically warps reality so that the Renegade loses. Because hey, Renegades actually having a point, we can't have that, right?

BTW, most of my Shepards are more Paragon than Renegade. That makes this contrivedly one-sided setup even more annoying for the few big Renegade decisions I take.

You do realize that the Renegade path is mainly canon default for a non-imported Shepard?

I'm assuming that applies to ME3 as well

Modifié par ultimatekotorfan, 02 décembre 2011 - 07:13 .

[Eclipse_9990]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

The only person I wish bad things upon NIGHTLY is Aeowyn.... trust me I have very good reasons for doing so.... me and Aeowyn do not have a good history. The past is all f***ed up between us.

Don't you think it would have been best if you'd kept this thought to yourself, though? Because that was entirely unnecessary.

I'm actually pretty curious would could drive a person wish ill on someone over the internet nightly.

ultimatekotorfan wrote...

You do realize that the Renegade path is mainly canon?

What? 

Edit: Ah you edited. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 02 décembre 2011 - 07:15 .

[111987]

The base might also ruin humanity's relationship with the other species. Giving advanced Reaper technology to a human-supremacist group whom have shown that they do not share their advances with the other races isn't going to win humanity any allies.

Also, like the Derelict Reaper, Cerberus will probably keep the tech for themselves, to achieve their own goals. If Cerberus was going to share the tech with the rest of the galaxy, or hell, even just the Alliance, I'd save the base. But they have shown that they aren't team players.

[ultimatekotorfan]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Honestly - I believe SWM has been hating on Cerberus long before spoilers... that would make harping on his use of spoiler knowledge largely just taking acception with his use of "I told you so."

NOTE: I could be wrong - perhaps SWM used to love Cerberus and has only now changed his view - please correct if mistaken.

First, more than likely.

Second, nah.

I just had a bit more respect for their actions then, when they didn't try to cover them up with lies and do what most people would find to just be disgusting.

Like with admiral Kahuko (or however you spell his name) in ME1. He got too close and they killed him for it. I didn't like that, but I can see the reason why they did it.

Sure, it's less easy for me to see why they're using Alliance soldiers as bait for maws, but at least they tried to do something good with it. Even if the way they did it was pretty dumb.

In ME2, TIM pretty much sacrifices whole damn colonies, on a hunch and didn't even admit that it was wrong. And attacked a ship in the quarian fleet while not even trying to minimize casualties and then says it was nothing personal. There goes the little sympathy I had for them down the toilet.

This makes it sound as if you were only truly angry at Cerberus when they introduced a face?

[Lotion Soronarr]

spiros9110 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I can't wait for ME3 to be a laughable experience so I can say "I told you so." Even though I know the rest of you biodrones will still defend it because you have no taste and no backbone.

Different taste.  You don't like it, that's fine.  Other people do, so what?  Sure, I'm no fan of the direction their going either, but to diss every fan that likes their product isn't very productive and isn't helping you get the game you want.  

"De gustum non discutabilis" ... or something like that.
And you know who said that? Someone who didn't want his tastes analyzed...because they sucked:P