1667 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

DiebytheSword wrote...
No, it is not a possiblity, it is an eventuality.  If you can't see that, then there is nothing I can say that will change your mind.

It's only an eventuality in your fantasy.

As I said, Reapers are on the forefront of my mind, there is no garauntee that the reapers can't retake that shipyard and resume operations themselves, but that is unlikely to happen immediately.  TIM is obviously not a moron as some people like to paint him.  It is also unlikely that TIM would build a new reaper, instead building their shock troops, or his imitation of them.  Its also not soley TIM I am concerned with, that technology has no place in the technological singularity I wish to build.  Turian, Salarian, Asari, Krogan, no one has the wisdom to weild that power properly.

So you are putting your dreams about a possibel technological singulaartiy (that you have only same vague idea of and no concrete plan how to get to) over the survival of the galaxy?

The hubris and ego in trying to decide who is "worthy". Who the hell gives you (or Shep) that right? Waht makes Sheps oppinion more valid than the needs of the galaxy.

The benefits of the base are clear. They are factual. A massive technological leap.

I don't want to give it to anyone, or was I somehow not clear on that point?  The base is mine.  I suffer its existance and decide its fate alone.

What a galatic ego.
And people say TIM is full of himself......

Our breakdown in understanding probably lies in the fact that the Reapers are not unbeatable no matter how badly some people want them to be.  They can and will be defeated, or there would be no point to the game.  If you say I limit my options when destroying the base, why is it then that you are not limiting yours by chosing the other side of the false dichotomy?  Obviously there will be other choices down the line, regardless of our black and white connundrum, that will decide how things play out.

Broken logic. Sheppard doesn't know it's game. You cna bet your card on a Deus Ex Machina you dont' know will come. The only reason you are betting on it because you know it's a game and it will be there.
Otherwise, if ME was real, and you were in Sheps shoes...would you realyl do the same? REALLY?

So no, there is no false dichotomy. Thre is no other side because there is no logical alternative to the base.

I'm not limiting my options, because a base - if not destroyed - remains there to be used or destroyed later. As a card it remains on the table, and it can still be removed.
Once it's is destroyed however, there is no going back.

So yes, I can readily admit that a Reaper shipyard is a treasure trove of information.  But I can also see that it is information that is likely to be abused, kept hidden from others, and generally used in ways anethema to my goals and chosen course.  The question is can you garauntee that the existence of a Reaper factory will not create more Reapers or their troops? 

There is only one goal - survival of the galaxy. Whoever gets the base will use it to thwart the reapers, if they care at all about theuir survival. IS it possible that the technology will be abused? Of course - such potential exists for ALL technology.
Yet it is ultimatively irrelevant. If the reapers win, there will be no one left to abuse it.

A single reaper base in the midst of a reaper invasion is a non-factor. Why worry about a factory that will take months/years to pump out a repaer of a few troops, when you have a thousent sentient super-warship indoctrinating people and reaping.

The Collector Base is both a boon and a liability and you are a fool to believe otherwise.

A far greater boon - a necessary boon - and a comparatively insignificant libaility.

Pragmatics . . . I'm not so sure that you aren't dogmatics.  But by all means, apply pragmaticism as you see fit and flip-flop when it suits you and benefits the cause.

When have I ever flip-flopped?

I'm all for paragon decisions as long as I'm the only one who pays for the potential ****up. Otherwise, pragmatism all the way.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

A reaper shipyard is a treasure throve of technology and information.
Usefull knowledge is a GURANTEED.

If and only if it is a Reaper shipyard - by the way,I can prove that I'm the pope if and only if 1+1=1.

Generally, I prefer plans that don't require the Reapers to be bloody stupid; and leaving an IFF lying around and the Collector base virtually undefended are bloody stupid (Would you expect an MIA serviceman's credit card to work 200 years later? Of course not.)
If it's too good to be true then it's probably a trap; of course, since this is a game - which won't Shepard from concluding that it's a trap - BW being lazy is also a possibility (we recruit random guys for most of ME2, and it conveniently turns out that we only need a few random guys to destroy the Collector base despite no one knowing anything about the Collector base until they actually get there)

Of course i's' a reaper shipyard - one was being built there. I don't know what game have you been playing.

As for trap - there is always that possibility. But it's not very likely, given how it was hidden and behind a relay.
Even if it was a trap, it's still a risk worth taking.
Intel and ways to close the gap is what is needed to give the galaxy a fighting chance.

[Stardusk78]

Everyone has a save where they have done both, statement is weird...

[Kaiser Shepard]

Aeowyn wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

The only person I wish bad things upon NIGHTLY is Aeowyn.... trust me I have very good reasons for doing so.... me and Aeowyn do not have a good history. The past is all f***ed up between us.

.

Do I know you?

Awkwaaaaaard...

[Eclipse_9990]

Aeowyn wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

The only person I wish bad things upon NIGHTLY is Aeowyn.... trust me I have very good reasons for doing so.... me and Aeowyn do not have a good history. The past is all f***ed up between us.

.

Do I know you?

Best post in the thread. 

[Someone With Mass]

CerberusWarrior wrote...
do I care if Shepard goes back to the clowns in the alliance no because after seeing what happens to player choice why should I as a player give a dam about the so called player choice side of the story . as far as being a cry baby well hell BSN is full of whining fan groups like the babies whining over ashley's re design so that right there makes no difference to me . you just don't like that fact I totally have no interest in the alliance and will be a ass to them in 3 . further more Bioware's lame story is even laughable if ME 2 can be completely washed away from the franchise . like I said at least in Star Wars TOR they can not play this stupid game of screwing up the story . I am not worried that you do not like my comments . Metal Gear Solid may have a messed up story but at least Kojima has stayed with in the in game universe of Metal Gear Solid in all the games . 

As far as I can tell, so has Mass Effect. It's pretty easy to do when they're the ones writing it.

If you think the franchise is so lame, then why are you even here?

For that matter, how can they screw up their own story if they're controlling and writing it? It's THEIR story and THEIR universe. They'll do whatever they damn please with it.

It had been another story if BioWare had simply written the story and let another company do the work. Then they had screwed up.

And if you have such a disinterest in the Alliance, why do you keep bringing it up?

[DiebytheSword]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It's only an eventuality in your fantasy.

The same can be said in reverse, it is only a possibility in your fantasy.  Since we're playing a fantasy Sci-Fi RPG, I'm going to let that comment stare into the abyss all on its own.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

So you are putting your dreams about a possibel technological singulaartiy (that you have only same vague idea of and no concrete plan how to get to) over the survival of the galaxy?

The hubris and ego in trying to decide who is "worthy". Who the hell gives you (or Shep) that right? Waht makes Sheps oppinion more valid than the needs of the galaxy.

The benefits of the base are clear. They are factual. A massive technological leap.

Since you haven't put Ceberus forward for the cause, like Saph, I'm going to let that one slide, because it seems like you are using Ceberus for your end goal as much as I.  A technological singularity would occur once the reaper threat is gone.  The relays, and all the Reaper tech recovered after the war will change the galaxy forever.  They are not impossible to defeat, they will be destroyed.  When its over, the right people will need to be there to pick up the pieces.  I am firmly of the opinion that one base will change nothing in a positive way.

As for hubris and ego, I control Shep, Shepard is the only character in the game that will decide things with power he alone weilds.  As an agent of change, who holds power in his hands, I control everything.  You can argue that I'm a despot or have a glactic ego, but that's silly because I am ultimately right.  Truth does not change because you want to apply logic to a fantasy game.  The game saves, and what happen in them are mine.  You can literally suck eggs on that point.  I've already decided for the Krogan, the Rachni and the Geth.  Everyone else gets a turn in 3.  Surprise, surprise, I'll decide who's worthy then too, and don't even play like you somehow avoided those choices.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
What a galatic ego.
And people say TIM is full of himself......

Spare me your lectures on who I may or may not be.  That is irrelevant and you don't know me from a hole in the wall.

What galactic ego that you lot condemn me, an actual human with free will, for choices in a video game.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Broken logic. Sheppard doesn't know it's game. You cna bet your card on a Deus Ex Machina you dont' know will come. The only reason you are betting on it because you know it's a game and it will be there.
Otherwise, if ME was real, and you were in Sheps shoes...would you realyl do the same? REALLY?

So no, there is no false dichotomy. Thre is no other side because there is no logical alternative to the base.

I'm not limiting my options, because a base - if not destroyed - remains there to be used or destroyed later. As a card it remains on the table, and it can still be removed.
Once it's is destroyed however, there is no going back.

I know its a game.  Who's using faulty logic again?  I can bet my card on options down the road, it is my game, my mouse clicks and thankfully you aren't at my keyboard guiding my experience.  If ME was real, and I were in Shepards shoes, I would not have dialogue options restricting my actions.  So spare me hypotheticals, because that is exactly the situation in which I would chose something different than option a and option b, as I stated above.  If we are applying full control, where I choose the content of Shepards message and actions and don't simply choose amongst the presented options, things would be very different indeed.  Therefore, there is very much  a false dichotomy.  I am playing a game, and this situation is not real, presenting only two choices when there would be many.

Once its turned over to TIM, it is out of your hands.  You would have to invade it again to stop it, this time with its resources under TIMs control, or worse, Reaper control.  As I stated earlier, he only tolerates you while you are convenient.  I only tolerate things in the game while they are convenient.  The bases existence is only possibly convenient, provided it is used properly.  Something I cannot garauntee, and a risk I am not willing to take.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
There is only one goal - survival of the galaxy. Whoever gets the base will use it to thwart the reapers, if they care at all about theuir survival. IS it possible that the technology will be abused? Of course - such potential exists for ALL technology.
Yet it is ultimatively irrelevant. If the reapers win, there will be no one left to abuse it.

Wrong, there is another more explicit goal: my enjoyment of the game.  Like it or not, the galaxy and all its inhabitants are my playthings.  But lets put that aside for now.  There are other goals, War without and end game strategy is a fool's errand.  As someone who decides where the chips will fall, Shepard will be the right man, in the right place, to change the galaxy as he sees fit multiple times before the game is done.  You will decide what the galaxy looks like when you are done.  You have a different vision than I, and that's fine, its your game too.

You will have to answer for letting the genie out of the bottle at some point, I decided that no one deserved the genie.  Come of that what may, it is my choice when I'm playing, not yours.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
A single reaper base in the midst of a reaper invasion is a non-factor. Why worry about a factory that will take months/years to pump out a repaer of a few troops, when you have a thousent sentient super-warship indoctrinating people and reaping.

Oh, but I thought it was oh so important?!  Pray tell, how is it that the Collector base is of worth to only one side?  I thought I was the illogical one here.  An asset is an asset, no matter who weilds it.  If I were to find a cache of nuclear weapons in the desert, it would be destroyed to assure it couldn't be used against me in the future.    Scorched earth games are what the reapers are doing with us, the favor must be returned in kind, as it has been demonstrated that their weapons and equipment are dangerous by their very presence alone.  Anything I might learn from a servitor species is not worth the risk.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
A far greater boon - a necessary boon - and a comparatively insignificant libaility.

In your opinion.  It is both a boon and a liability, you cannot argue that it is one or the other.  If it has worth, it has worth, freind and foe alike (not all foes being reapers), what it is worth to one side or the other in comparison is irrelevant.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
When have I ever flip-flopped?

I'm all for paragon decisions as long as I'm the only one who pays for the potential ****up. Otherwise, pragmatism all the way.

I'll grant you this, you and I probably pick many choices similar, since my Sheps typically run Paragrade as yours does (albiet with significant differences on this one point at minimum).

That was mainly aimed at Saphra, I don't know enough about your positions to qualify that, so I will withdraw it from you for now.

Modifié par DiebytheSword, 02 décembre 2011 - 05:56 .

[Labrev]

Saphra Deden wrote...

My main issue with it is that the way it is portrayed doesn't make sense and clashes with everything that was established about Cerberus prior to ME3.

Everything we were told revealed Cerberus to be clandestine, small in size, and set back by the cost of building the SR2, project Lazarus, and the turian assault in Retribution. It indicated a smaller Cerberus in ME3. Instead things are turned around and now Cerberus is bigger and badder than ever and able to go toe to toe with the militaries of various species.

They've got ****ing fleets!

Furthermore, it is never justified why Cerberus had to become an enemy in ME3 to further their goals. Their goals do make sense, but not the path they choose to pursue them. They choose a wasteful path, one of overt enmity with the rest of the galaxy.

A more subtle path with Cerberus/TIM not revealing their/his true intentions until the very end would have fit a lot better and been a nice pay-off for everybody.

Well I have not read Retribution and don't plan to. I'm also not aware of all the spoilers on Cerberus either (I'll read them in a PM though). So I can't really respond any further on this.

But for one thing, the spoilers indicate a certain "weapon" behind their growth in numbers. Big-ass hint: a weapon the Reapers use, and not spikes.

Not only that, but one of the biggest things about Cerberus was how little we knew of the organization, or of the man-in-charge. We got the impression of things: small size, human advancement as their ideal. But really, TIM says it himself at the end of Jacob's LM (if renegade dialogue taken): "You know very little about me, Shepard. Do not presume to know my intentions." <-- emphasis on presumption, as evil OR otherwise.

[Someone With Mass]

Well, it makes sense for Cerberus to have a small fleet, considering that one of their most successful front companies IS A DAMN STARSHIP MANUFACTURER.

For that matter, there's absolutely no indication that they weren't preparing strike forces like the ones they have in ME3 prior to that event, besides giving everyone the image that they only have much influence in many fields of the human society and very few things that they can call their own.

When the galaxy is too busy dealing with the Reapers and is too spread out to stop their forces, they probably saw no reason in hiding and wasting time in the shadows anymore.

Especially when everyone's on the clock. The Reapers won't pause with their attacks unless they need supplies or reinforcements.

[Bann Duncan]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...
Okay SWM may need to learn to lighten up a bit... but even someone like Saphra is not someone I would wish bad things to happen to.

The only person I wish bad things upon NIGHTLY is Aeowyn.... trust me I have very good reasons for doing so.... me and Aeowyn do not have a good history. The past is all f***ed up between us.

Cute!

I was reminiscing about childhood recently when I went to a concert of some artists I loved as a kid and then I come online to see a good, old-fashioned elementary school crush. This made my day. Thanks, Omega4!

Go get 'er!

[Omega4RelayResident]

Aeowyn wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

The only person I wish bad things upon NIGHTLY is Aeowyn.... trust me I have very good reasons for doing so.... me and Aeowyn do not have a good history. The past is all f***ed up between us.

.

Do I know you?

Yeah you should... a while ago we put each other on ignore because of a debate we had on the forums which YOU could not handle in a civil manner... you PMd me before we ignored each other and you told me "I think you are an idiot and an **** and I hope someone you care about dies". Well you got your wish... my father died 2 weeks later.

Any f***ing questions?

[Dean_the_Young]

You sure you have the right person?

[BatmanPWNS]

If I was the OP I would say:
To all people who didn't blow up the Collector base......... congratulations! Now you get more challenges and moral dilemma's (hopefully) which will obviously make your gaming time more satisfying.

[GodWood]

[Omega4RelayResident]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You sure you have the right person?

Yeah I wouldnt forget something like that... the argument was very heated.

[General User]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Well, it makes sense for Cerberus to have a small fleet, considering that one of their most successful front companies IS A DAMN STARSHIP MANUFACTURER.

Navies aren't cheap.  Even the largest defense contractors can only build what they build because they have a government, well... contract (ie the government is putting up the money).  Who's putting up the money a Cerberus fleet?

[Omega4RelayResident]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...
The intensity you have when you defend the Renegade standpoint is so strong that it implys these things. So if you are a good person in real life what is it that makes you love the Renegade soo much? Is it just the fantasy of being bad with no reprocussions?

Listen I DO NOT WANT YOUR GAME TO EXPLODE FOR PICKING RENEGADE... just for you to get the ending you want allong with the entire galaxy hating you for being a douche.

For myself is because a lot of renegade choices are a lot SMARTER than paragon ones. Sure, there are paragon choices that I find better..and sure, the lesser renegade choices are douchbaggery. Which is why a renegade is so inconsistent.

At the end of the day, pragmatists should be rewarded for some of their choices and idealists punished. Why? Because it's a friggin galactic war of extinction and not bloody Care Bear Happy Land.
There's a time and place for everything and blind idealism should get a few smacks in such an enviroment.

Yes but people that walk all over others are NEVER liked very much by society in the end. Remember that if you performed nothing but Renegade options in ME1 in ME2 you did not get those special cameos from the people you ran into back then. It shows that anything you do can have reprocussions later on.... GOOD or BAD. I dont mind if Paragons have a tougher time to win in the end... as long as when we win we will be informed that we are a good person at heart.

This is such a bad debate... we are arguing morality in an environment where the reprocussions are fictitious... trolls, ****s, and people that live out their frustrations will defend their right to do as they please. Arguing that Renegade choices are the SMARTER ones is just supposition until you actually complete ME3. You dont know for a fact that you are correct... and according to the leaked info it seems you are more wrong than you are right... you just mad about it.

Ill give the renegades credit for one thing though... the ones that are sticking to their guns even in light of the leaked info at least have the cohones to not flip flop on the subject.

[Aeowyn]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

The only person I wish bad things upon NIGHTLY is Aeowyn.... trust me I have very good reasons for doing so.... me and Aeowyn do not have a good history. The past is all f***ed up between us.

.

Do I know you?

Yeah you should... a while ago we put each other on ignore because of a debate we had on the forums which YOU could not handle in a civil manner... you PMd me before we ignored each other and you told me "I think you are an idiot and an **** and I hope someone you care about dies". Well you got your wish... my father died 2 weeks later.

Any f***ing questions?

Obvious troll is obvious. But do be a dear and don't spread lies about me. Thanks. 

[Dean_the_Young]

General User wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Well, it makes sense for Cerberus to have a small fleet, considering that one of their most successful front companies IS A DAMN STARSHIP MANUFACTURER.

Navies aren't cheap.  Even the largest defense contractors can only build what they build because they have a government, well... contract (ie the government is putting up the money).  Who's putting up the money a Cerberus fleet?

Moreover, how is this fleet worth of vehicles vanishing from the dockyards without someone noticing? Proxy buyers doesn't cover cruisers and frigates.

IIRC, EDI said the Normandy was built by individual components smuggled out, not by a front company. That can work for small-scale, but not large-scale projects like, well, fleets?

[Omega4RelayResident]

Aeowyn wrote...

Obvious troll is obvious. But do be a dear and don't spread lies about me. Thanks. 

Not a lie, and not trolling... too bad you dont remember. You had a different avatar pic then... same character but there was red lighting.

[111987]

Can we please keep these silly internet feuds out of the thread?

Go ahead and PM each other as much as you want about how much you hate one another, just don't do it here.

Please.

[Aeowyn]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Obvious troll is obvious. But do be a dear and don't spread lies about me. Thanks. 

Not a lie, and not trolling... too bad you dont remember. You had a different avatar pic then... same character but there was red lighting.

You know what, the one thing I despise is people spreading lies about me. So how about you stop right there before you need to shove your foot further into your mouth. You're not on my ignore list, I've never PM:ed you, and frankly that type of PM isn't my style. 

Enjoy your delusions. 

[Ryzaki]

...This whole thread has become confusing.

[General User]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

General User wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Well, it makes sense for Cerberus to have a small fleet, considering that one of their most successful front companies IS A DAMN STARSHIP MANUFACTURER.

Navies aren't cheap.  Even the largest defense contractors can only build what they build because they have a government, well... contract (ie the government is putting up the money).  Who's putting up the money a Cerberus fleet?

Moreover, how is this fleet worth of vehicles vanishing from the dockyards without someone noticing? Proxy buyers doesn't cover cruisers and frigates.

IIRC, EDI said the Normandy was built by individual components smuggled out, not by a front company. That can work for small-scale, but not large-scale projects like, well, fleets?

Near as I can figure, for building a fleet Cerberus would need front organizations to act as buyers, those buyers would have to be able to purchase proprietary front-line military hardware (and lots of it) without drawing suspicion. 

The only organizations I can think of that fit that bill would be  "Alliance allied" governments.

Modifié par General User, 02 décembre 2011 - 09:01 .

[Omega4RelayResident]

111987 wrote...

Can we please keep these silly internet feuds out of the thread?

Go ahead and PM each other as much as you want about how much you hate one another, just don't do it here.

Please.

Dont worry... I tried to break up an argument with that example... I try to keep IT at a wide berth away from me but I was stating facts thats all.

Anyway... back to the real discussion.

I do think Paragons need to be comended for finishing the story in the way they did... or at least have a longer game experience meeting all the people you let live and such.