1667 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Erm, you aren't even talking about the same thing as the guy you quoted. Aside from both whining about big bad Bioware, but he's making a COMPLETELY different point than you are. You know that, right?

This is why I say whiners gonna whine. Before ME3 script leaks, renegades rage this to no end: paragons always win because they get goodies like bonus content (as if that's some kind of a huge victory).

After them, after Bioware decides to give paragons and renegades the same missions so no side is decidedly getting more than the other, even making some paragon decisions backfiring, the outcry is now "choices don't matter anymore!"


To the point where we have a quote tree literally reading like:

"Bioware is stupid, there's no difference in paragon and renegade decisions anymore."
Re: "I agree, paragon decisions always have a much better outcome than renegades'."

//snip

'round and around we go.


BSN retardation is peaking by the day

That's fine that you didn't think it through...

Paragon players did get consequences for their choices, palpable and ultimately positive ones.  The other choices are the ones that didn't make much difference.  If the Paragon choices are the only way to get the most (and most positive) content, then choices truly "don't matter anymore."  You no longer make decisions based on "what's the best course of action in this scenario? (because the fix is in for Paragon choices from the start)"

Think about it.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 03 décembre 2011 - 04:11 .

[Labrev]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Erm, you aren't even talking about the same thing as the guy you quoted. Aside from both whining about big bad Bioware, but he's making a COMPLETELY different point than you are. You know that, right?

This is why I say whiners gonna whine. Before ME3 script leaks, renegades rage this to no end: paragons always win because they get goodies like bonus content (as if that's some kind of a huge victory).

After them, after Bioware decides to give paragons and renegades the same missions so no side is decidedly getting more than the other, even making some paragon decisions backfiring, the outcry is now "choices don't matter anymore!"


To the point where we have a quote tree literally reading like:

"Bioware is stupid, there's no difference in paragon and renegade decisions anymore."
Re: "I agree, paragon decisions always have a much better outcome than renegades'."

//snip

'round and around we go.


BSN retardation is peaking by the day

That's fine that you didn't think it through...

Paragon players did get consequences for their choices, palpable and ultimately positive ones.  The other choices are the ones that didn't make much difference.  If the Paragon choices are the only way to get the most (and most positive) content, then choices truly "don't matter anymore."  You no longer make decisions based on "what's the best course of action in this scenario? (because the fix is in for Paragon choices from the start)"

Think about it.

Nope, you missed the point of the guy you quoted.

Clearly, you have not seen ME3's leaks/spoilers. If you did, you'd see that there are paragon choices that are backfiring, most of them literally have no more consequence/reward than the renegade ones. Now, the outrage is about "choices don't matter anymore." And not because paragons always win like you (mistakenly) think, but because they've tried to make it balanced/fair without making one side get decidedly more.

And yet, it's still not good enough. Whiners gonna whine.

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 03 décembre 2011 - 05:02 .

[Someone With Mass]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Nope, you missed the point of the guy you quoted.

Clearly, you have not seen ME3's leaks/spoilers. If you did, you'd see that there are paragon choices that are backfiring, most of them literally have no more consequence/reward than the renegade ones. Now, the outrage is about "choices don't matter anymore." And not because paragons always win like you (mistakenly) think, but because they've tried to make it balanced/fair without making one side get decidedly more.

And yet, it's still not good enough. Whiners gonna whine.

True enough.

Unrealistic expectations are still going to be unrealistic.

Such is the circle of this forum.

[GodWood]

Renegade decisions having some positive consequences and getting significantly different content?


NEVAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRR

[Labrev]

GodWood wrote...

Renegade decisions having some positive consequences and getting significantly different content?


NEVAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRR

Yes, excuse me for not playing "armchair developer" and assuming to know what BW's opportunity-cost is from spending (read: wasting) time and money on making one particular faction of BSN fans happy, or that it is particularly easy to do while they have bigger things (the game at large) to worry about.

Derp, let's scalp the story to bare bones and waste content on making sure every last entitled fan get what they want. Shiala for LI, the Illusive Man for recruitable squadmate, 9384293 different outcomes for every combination of choice!

Genius!!! Might have to jack up the price to $120 to cover the cost of spreading this content over 4 CDs, good thing we have unlimited resources.


Fair and balanced treatment for both sides??? Proposterous!!!!

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 03 décembre 2011 - 06:56 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Erm, you aren't even talking about the same thing as the guy you quoted. Aside from both whining about big bad Bioware, but he's making a COMPLETELY different point than you are. You know that, right?

This is why I say whiners gonna whine. Before ME3 script leaks, renegades rage this to no end: paragons always win because they get goodies like bonus content (as if that's some kind of a huge victory).

After them, after Bioware decides to give paragons and renegades the same missions so no side is decidedly getting more than the other, even making some paragon decisions backfiring, the outcry is now "choices don't matter anymore!"


To the point where we have a quote tree literally reading like:

"Bioware is stupid, there's no difference in paragon and renegade decisions anymore."
Re: "I agree, paragon decisions always have a much better outcome than renegades'."

//snip

'round and around we go.


BSN retardation is peaking by the day

That's fine that you didn't think it through...

Paragon players did get consequences for their choices, palpable and ultimately positive ones.  The other choices are the ones that didn't make much difference.  If the Paragon choices are the only way to get the most (and most positive) content, then choices truly "don't matter anymore."  You no longer make decisions based on "what's the best course of action in this scenario? (because the fix is in for Paragon choices from the start)"

Think about it.

Nope, you missed the point of the guy you quoted.

Clearly, you have not seen ME3's leaks/spoilers. If you did, you'd see that there are paragon choices that are backfiring, most of them literally have no more consequence/reward than the renegade ones. Now, the outrage is about "choices don't matter anymore." And not because paragons always win like you (mistakenly) think, but because they've tried to make it balanced/fair without making one side get decidedly more.

And yet, it's still not good enough. Whiners gonna whine.

Sorry, but no...

I haven't seen the ME3 leak/spoilers... why would I do that?  And you say some Paragon decisions backfire... but that doesn't prove that it's worse than had you made an alternate choice.  That was the point that you seem to have missed.

Can you tell me from what you've read that a Renegade choice proved to be superior to the Paragon one (as far as lives saved, positive feedback, or more/additional content)?  If not, then the Paragon choices still win out... again.

Keep thinking about it.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 03 décembre 2011 - 07:11 .

[Labrev]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Can you tell me from what you've read that a Renegade choice proved to be superior to the Paragon one?

The answer is yes.

In fact, one big paragon decision has specifically been said by a BW dev to "bite you in the ass."

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Can you tell me from what you've read that a Renegade choice proved to be superior to the Paragon one?

The answer is yes.

In fact, one big paragon decision has specifically been said by a BW dev to "bite you in the ass."

Just because a Paragon decision backfires doesn't mean it'll end worse than an alternative choice.  Case and point:  Mass Effect 1: Save the Council.  They decided to do it and visually, they lost a lot of ships.  Turned out later that it really wasn't that many and the Renegade/Neutral choices lost a lot more lives and got the same "Sovereign is dead" ending as everyone else... except now they get more local and galactic praise and an exclusive Council cameo in the sequel.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 03 décembre 2011 - 07:16 .

[Someone With Mass]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

The answer is yes.

In fact, one big paragon decision has specifically been said by a BW dev to "bite you in the ass."

I've seen some of them do quite just that in the script as well.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

For those that read it, does a Renegade choice ever save more lives/garner more praise/gain more content than the Paragon choice?

Because for the first 2 games, that never... ever... happened.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 03 décembre 2011 - 07:18 .

[Labrev]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Can you tell me from what you've read that a Renegade choice proved to be superior to the Paragon one?

The answer is yes.

In fact, one big paragon decision has specifically been said by a BW dev to "bite you in the ass."

Just because a Paragon decision backfires doesn't mean it'll end worse than an alternative choice.  Case and point:  Mass Effect 1: Save the Council.  They decided to do it and visually, they lost a lot of ships.  Turned out later that it really wasn't that many and the Renegade/Neutral choices lost a lot more lives and got the same "Sovereign is dead" ending as everyone else.

Wow. It's so hard to get through your thick skull that Paragon =/= guranteed victory, to the point where you refuse to accept the word of someone who read the leaked script over your blind impressions.

Thanks for the obvious insight but I happen to posess 1st-grade analytical skills enough to decidedly conclude which one of two decisions is a worse choice.

Regardless, this exchange is over.

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 03 décembre 2011 - 07:23 .

[Someone With Mass]

Well, it doesn't specify which choices are Renegade and which are Paragon (not all of them, anyway) so I can't really tell. Or remember, because I didn't really care about that when I read through it.

[Labrev]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

For those that read it, does a Renegade choice ever save more lives/garner more praise/gain more content than the Paragon choice?

Because for the first 2 games, that never... ever... happened.

In other words, you're asking whether renegades can have their cake and eat it too?

Funny, renegades always rail on paragons for always having that outcome. But whenever I accuse the BSN renegade die-hards of not ever being satisfied for not getting such an ending, they insist that's not the case.

Look no further than this post as evidence.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

I just explained how a backfire doesn't equate to a worse choice and asked a more specific question that could remove any doubt.

Does a Renegade choice ever save more lives/garner more praise/gain more content than the Paragon choice?

Sounds like the only one flying blind is you if you didn't see that. A decision that backfires doesn't make it worse than an alternative decision (if those alternative choices result in an even worse outcome).

"This exhange is over?" Fine fine, I'll deal with you later at the Citadel then... Sovereign

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

For those that read it, does a Renegade choice ever save more lives/garner more praise/gain more content than the Paragon choice?

Because for the first 2 games, that never... ever... happened.

In other words, you're asking whether renegades can have their cake and eat it too?

Funny, renegades always rail on paragons for always having that outcome. But whenever I accuse the BSN renegade die-hards of not ever being satisfied for not getting such an ending, they insist that's not the case.

Look no further than this post as evidence.

It defeats the point of a choice if the only choices that make the most positive differences are the blue button ones.  You also conveniently leave out Neutral choices which get commonly lumped together with Renegade decisions.

And no, what cake are you talking about?  You mean making a "hard" decision instead of the "always do what should ideally be done" chioce?

[Someone With Mass]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Just because a Paragon decision backfires doesn't mean it'll end worse than an alternative choice.  Case and point:  Mass Effect 1: Save the Council.  They decided to do it and visually, they lost a lot of ships.  Turned out later that it really wasn't that many and the Renegade/Neutral choices lost a lot more lives and got the same "Sovereign is dead" ending as everyone else... except now they get more local and galactic praise and an exclusive Council cameo in the sequel.

OH RLY?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Just because a Paragon decision backfires doesn't mean it'll end worse than an alternative choice.  Case and point:  Mass Effect 1: Save the Council.  They decided to do it and visually, they lost a lot of ships.  Turned out later that it really wasn't that many and the Renegade/Neutral choices lost a lot more lives and got the same "Sovereign is dead" ending as everyone else... except now they get more local and galactic praise and an exclusive Council cameo in the sequel.

OH RLY?

Really, sacrificing the Council to go after Sovereign brought no advantage to stopping Sovereign.  Even the Renegade ending here gets deflated in the sequel.  You don't see the new Council (at all), you don't get any privaledges for a supposed all-human dominion, and you get no praise or support from anyone that wouldn't support you regardless, the all-human Council does nothing substantial or distinctive with their new powers, and aliens are hostile/resent you (revolt could be imminent).

For the record, I never pick the Renegade choice there... fortunately, the Neutral choice is essentially the same (as far as ME2 carryover is concerned).

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 03 décembre 2011 - 07:42 .

[Kaidan Fan]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Can you tell me from what you've read that a Renegade choice proved to be superior to the Paragon one?

The answer is yes.

In fact, one big paragon decision has specifically been said by a BW dev to "bite you in the ass."

Ugh, it's all because I let that scientist chick in Sarens Krogan hatchery live, isn't it? I knew I shoulda killed her!

[AlexXIV]

Honestly being renegade is basically about being a hardass or ****. When ever have such people been loved? I mean renegade Shep lets Clint Eastwood look like a schoolgirl. What do you expect to get for that? Applause?

[Seboist]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Can you tell me from what you've read that a Renegade choice proved to be superior to the Paragon one?

The answer is yes.

In fact, one big paragon decision has specifically been said by a BW dev to "bite you in the ass."

Considering  that Paragon choices like letting Balak go benefit in the most contrived ways imaginable I'd take that with an oil tanker load of salt.

[AlexXIV]

Btw. I wouldn't mind if paragon choices bite you in the ass. That's like irl, no good deed goes unpunished. But in a game, any game I expect that, in the long run, more paragon decisions work out than renegade decisions.

[Labrev]

Seboist wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Can you tell me from what you've read that a Renegade choice proved to be superior to the Paragon one?

The answer is yes.

In fact, one big paragon decision has specifically been said by a BW dev to "bite you in the ass."

Considering  that Paragon choices like letting Balak go benefit in the most contrived ways imaginable I'd take that with an oil tanker load of salt.

If by "benefit" you mean "not result in inherent consequence" then sure. Guess what, I'll still chalk up my decision to kill him as a win, and would do it again.

[Someone With Mass]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
Really, sacrificing the Council to go after Sovereign brought no advantage to stopping Sovereign.  Even the Renegade ending here gets deflated in the sequel.  You don't see the new Council (at all), you don't get any privaledges for a supposed all-human dominion, and you get no praise or support from anyone that wouldn't support you regardless, the all-human Council does nothing substantial or distinctive with their new powers, and aliens are hostile/resent you (revolt could be imminent).

Besides the fact that the turians aren't feeling binded by the treaty which forbids them to produce more dreadnoughts than before.

And, really, if you gave up the largest dreadnought in Citadel space, you have no-one to blame but yourself when you're not given extra support. You pretty much put all your faith in the Arcturus fleet to take down Sovereign.

Also, had it been a tad more idealistic, that little coup wouldn't have worked at all, and I think the new Council has better things to do than to talk with Shepard.

Besides, you'll meet them in ME3.

Just because the consequences aren't showed seconds after the choice has been made doesn't mean that they don't exist.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

AlexXIV wrote...

Honestly being renegade is basically about being a hardass or ****. When ever have such people been loved? I mean renegade Shep lets Clint Eastwood look like a schoolgirl. What do you expect to get for that? Applause?

Even the Sith has allies and they openly call their ways "The Dark Side."  Applause isn't necessary, but a positive impact toward their cause every once in a while would be realistic.  Sometimes being more aggressive is better than being more passive.. sometimes more lives are saved that way.  Sometimes sacrifices do get made and circumstances are not ideal.


Otherwise, the fix is in and there's no point in trying to make "the best" choice because the answer will always be "do the ideal thing and it'll always turn out the best."  There are no "hard" decisions to make in that light... removing the point of having a choice at all (for that purpose).

Bioware's been saying Renegades aren't "evil"... but they hardly provide anything in their writing and outcomes to back that notion up.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 03 décembre 2011 - 08:09 .