1667 réponses à ce sujet

[DiebytheSword]

Lotion, if you haven't figured out that you are playing a game where the rules of our world don't quite apply, than this coversation is not only pointless, but at an end.

One thing I will rebut, because all you really had for me was doubling down on your ******-poor attitude and insults, is that in the case of nuclear weapons, we already split the atom, and have the fruits of Reaper technology within the trap, a trap we were never supposed to have for as long as we had.  Sovereign was supposed to cut off the mass relays, and that would have put an end to the galactic civilization.  Now we have things that were never meant to be in our hands, and we forced them to attack us head on, rather than by stealth, the war is winnable, you dont need to win at any cost, but by all means continue to believe so.  We'll see who's right in ME3, then I suspect your argument will have lost all of its bite.

Until then, have fun not agreeing with me, because I literally could care less about continuing a conversation with someone who is idealist as you are.  You don't want to debate the issues, you want to be right.  I don't have time for that.

[111987]

Why might a Paragon destroy the base?

For me, because I see it doing more harm than good. Because I can only vie the base to Cerberus, that means that how the base is used is entirely on them. With the Reapers in the galaxy, the other races are not going to have the time to retake the Collector Base from TIM if he starts misusing the technology. He will be the least of their worries, but could still be a major threat if he decides to use the Base to start creating his own Reaper to fight against the others, for example.

You also have to worry about indoctrination. They were constructing a fully-fledged Reaper there, which means indocrination is a distinct possibility. Other tech and artifacts in the base could also cause indoctrination. Having Cerberus personell indoctrinated would be a serious threat because they have a lot of information the Reapers could exploit, and could be planted amongst the Alliance to betray them at key times.

Finally, Cerberus has shown in the past that they do not share technology. They did not share what they learned about Biotics from Teltin. They did not share with the Alliance that the Geth could be controlled. And when they gained access to a nearly intact Derelict Reaper, they did not share that either. If they weren't willing to share a Reaper, which could tell us more than the Collector Base ever could, than it is unlikely they would share the contents of the Collector Base with anyone either. Cerberus's main goal has always been to ensure human dominance, both against the Reapers and beyond. It would be very in character for Cerberus to use the technology and knowledge either against the other races or simply use it to help humans. Either way, the Reapers cannot be defeated without the galaxy uniting together, and giving the base to Cerberus will hinder that movement. The other races would not look kindly on both humanity and Shepard for allowing Cerberus access to advanced technology and not sharing it with everyone. That could be the difference between the other races help with the re-taking of Earth to them deciding to hold back and watch Earth burn.

[DragonTIM]

strive wrote...

Oh... this thread again..

Oh this reply again.

[111987]

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

You also have to worry about indoctrination.

Sooner or later instead of worrying about it you may need to actually do something about it.

Like, avoiding it, perhaps?

Or use the research from Virmire that Rana Thanoplis could have? Pure data is less likely to threaten you than Reaper artifacts, baes, etc...

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sooner or later instead of worrying about it you may need to actually do something about it.

Oh, yeah, because Cerberus have shown to be so willing to try and counter indoctrination. Especially when they lost their whole science team to it and plunged one of the greatest discoveries of our time into the depths of a brown dwarf.

The only guy so far who's been willing to actually learn to counter indoctrination ended up working for the Reapers too.

[111987]

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

Like, avoiding it, perhaps?

You're going to hide from the Reapers when they invade?

Is there a reason you never respond to the entire post?

Use Rana's information; they studied indoctrinatation directly, from an actual Reaper.

And avoiding indoctrination is smarter than throwing your top scientists at Reaper artifacts and praying they'll figure something out before they too are lost.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

You're going to hide from the Reapers when they invade?

Well, I'm not going to get indoctrinated on purpose, if that's what you think.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

**Double Post**

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 06 décembre 2011 - 03:42 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Troika0 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Be that as it may, the point still stands.  They aren't all adaptive.  Compassion is not something necessary for personal survival... but something commonly attributed to moral decency and civility.  Adaptation in evolution just raises the chances of survival... but in the end it's still the "strong" and/or cunning that continue to persist and pass on their genetic successors into the future.

I suggest you take another look at current evolutionary and game theory. Cooparative behaviors are genetically beneficial, that's why they are conserved and exist at all. Sure, you could argue it's not beneficial in all circumstances--particularly when resources are scarce--but that's no contradiction.

The Sith cooperate with other Sith members, I've never suggested otherwise.  That's also not compassion.

111987 wrote...

And avoiding indoctrination is smarter than throwing your top scientists at Reaper artifacts and praying they'll figure something out before they too are lost.

There is no avoiding Indoctrination.  It's one of the Reaper's primary weapons. 

[HowlHowl]

I wanted to keep it because if Shepard is such a badass, why do I get bossed around the by the Illusive Old White Guy ALL the time? But that doesn't matter, because he finds a way to get it or something better anyway, he always will, because damn it if the hero of everything gets a say in who gets the glorified blender.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

If you can trust Cerberus to go on a suicide mission with them in order to fight the Collectors, not teaming up with them to fight the Reapers (the real threat)... doesn't make as much sense to me.

[111987]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Troika0 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Be that as it may, the point still stands.  They aren't all adaptive.  Compassion is not something necessary for personal survival... but something commonly attributed to moral decency and civility.  Adaptation in evolution just raises the chances of survival... but in the end it's still the "strong" and/or cunning that continue to persist and pass on their genetic successors into the future.

I suggest you take another look at current evolutionary and game theory. Cooparative behaviors are genetically beneficial, that's why they are conserved and exist at all. Sure, you could argue it's not beneficial in all circumstances--particularly when resources are scarce--but that's no contradiction.

The Sith cooperate with other Sith members, I've never suggested otherwise.  That's also not compassion.

111987 wrote...

And avoiding indoctrination is smarter than throwing your top scientists at Reaper artifacts and praying they'll figure something out before they too are lost.

There is no avoiding Indoctrination.  It's one of the Reaper's primary weapons. 

Yeah, you're missing the point here. I've bolded the important part (aka the whole thing). Avoid it as much as possible; obviously it will claim some people, but throwing your smartest minds at it doesn't seem like a great idea. That's why I suggested using Rana's data from Virmire.

[Medhia Nox]

For the discerning Paragon - I might suggest keeping the base so Cerberus can be indoctrinated.

Gets rid of the guilt when you pulp them inside those new nice suits of armor they got in ME 3.

((Yes, I'm aware I'll get to kill Cerby soldiers anyway - but still.)) 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 06 décembre 2011 - 05:40 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

mango smoothie wrote...

     I really need to do that video series I wanted to do that where I talk about the choices of Mass Effect and why people choose one choice or another. Where I go into great depth and talk about multiple reasons why people would make that certain choice, and try to have people understand why people make that choice. I have always found a pro and con in every choice in Mass Effect, and can understand why people would choose one choice over the other.
    Even if I did that though I'm sure people would still not understand why people choose certain choices.

I can't speak for everyone but "why" is not an issue in itself.
I fully understand why poeple blow the CB for example (they start with wrong premises or have messed-up priorities).

The bigger issue is if the "why" makes proper sense.

It does because TIM would get his hands on it. If the Alliance or Council grapped it I would have been ok with it. Even though I think it is a mistake. But my Shep is still Alliance/Council soldier. Sry but anyone who kisses TIM's butt is just a turncoat. And I don't think it is a good idea to start a war Cerberus vs the rest of the world just when the Reaper invasion is close.

It's not really about making proper sense as you claim. It is about what you accept being a proper sense. You can't disprove my opinion as little as I can disprove yours. However, we have a choice and we will see what we get for it in ME3.

Oh, but I can.
See, you prioritize Cerberus as a greater threat than the repaers...and that is blatantly wrong.

At the time of ME2 there is no solid evidence that Cerberus would start a war with the rest of the world. Tehre is no evidence that Cerberus even wants to start a war (unless you think a single sentance taken to it's illogical extreeme is hard evidence).

The galaxy needs an edge agaisnt the reapers. Cerberus is part of hte this galaxy. Like it or not, as long as someone from this galaxy has hte base, the entire galaxy has better chances of survival.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes, because government allows shipyards to sell armed warships to anyone.

I'm sure Bill Gates has his own aircraft carrier with nukes...


Whatever Cerberus can legaly get from shipyards will be civilian stuff or simple military stuff (like Hum-Vees).
And Illegaly getting anything would be a b**** too, since any sensible government watches military shipyards like a hawk.

Frankly, the ease one can aquire weapons and military hardware (especialyl ships) in most sci-fi settings is laughable.
There's a reason pirates drive around in dingies with AK-47's, and not in their own destroyers.

Okay, then how did they get the latest disruptor torpedo launching system for the SR2?

Maybe they added it later? Maybe they built the weapons themselves?

Or maybe they got their parts out in the Terminus systems, where there is no military government.

Or, hell, actually used their connections in the Alliance ranks to authorize their companies to build the components needed to construct the ships they wanted later. Not everything has a stamp on it that says "WEAPON/SHIP PARTS" on it, you know.

And if they can get their hands on the blueprints of a top secret stealth frigate like the Normandy, I think they can get their hands on blueprints of something like a fighter or a cruiser.

As I said - this is sci-fi, so common sense usually goes agaisnt hte door. In any realistic setting there's no way in hell Cerberus could have anything.
Of course, in ME2 we see they build the Normandy 2 .. in secreat and over the course of several years. Obviously, this makes it far harder to build anything, especially bigger stuff.
So even taking this into account, Cerberus still should be lucky to have a few frigates at most.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Oh, but I can.
See, you prioritize Cerberus as a greater threat than the repaers...and that is blatantly wrong.

At the time of ME2 there is no solid evidence that Cerberus would start a war with the rest of the world. Tehre is no evidence that Cerberus even wants to start a war (unless you think a single sentance taken to it's illogical extreeme is hard evidence).

The galaxy needs an edge agaisnt the reapers. Cerberus is part of hte this galaxy. Like it or not, as long as someone from this galaxy has hte base, the entire galaxy has better chances of survival.

No I don't think Cerberus is a greater threat. I think they are not trustworthy. That's the difference. I'd gladly use Cerberus against the Reapers if I could control them. But I cannot. There is no way to make sure they don't try to stab you in the back some where on the road. I'm all for an edge against the Reapers, as long as I am sure that this edge won't cut me in the worst moment. It's about trust really, I don't trust them. There is not really more to say about it. Other than maybe I don't trust Bioware to write a story in which an organisation like Cerberus comes in handy. They have too many skeletons in their cellar. It is a morale dilemma.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 06 décembre 2011 - 07:22 .

[AlexXIV]

Medhia Nox wrote...

For the discerning Paragon - I might suggest keeping the base so Cerberus can be indoctrinated.

Gets rid of the guilt when you pulp them inside those new nice suits of armor they got in ME 3.

((Yes, I'm aware I'll get to kill Cerby soldiers anyway - but still.)) 

If I was sure that only Cerberus gets harmed by it, I'd do it. But Cerberus have a bad habit in not only harming themselves but also all around them.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DiebytheSword wrote...

Lotion, if you haven't figured out that you are playing a game where the rules of our world don't quite apply, than this coversation is not only pointless, but at an end.

And if oyu havn't figured out that you are o nthe completley wrong track and talking about justifiying hte decision fro ma players perspective, while the rest of us are talking from an in-universe perspective.
Really, does it even make sense to justifiy it from a player perspective? Anything is justified from that perspective. If you want to try it out, it is justified.
If the game allowed Shepaprd to run around naked and commit suicide  by sticking his finger in a power outlet, it too would make perfect sense by the very nature that I wanted to do it and see what would happen.

So your entire line of reasoning is POINTLESS. It has ZERO worth.

One thing I will rebut, because all you really had for me was doubling down on your ******-poor attitude and insults, is that in the case of nuclear weapons, we already split the atom, and have the fruits of Reaper technology within the trap, a trap we were never supposed to have for as long as we had.  Sovereign was supposed to cut off the mass relays, and that would have put an end to the galactic civilization.  Now we have things that were never meant to be in our hands, and we forced them to attack us head on, rather than by stealth, the war is winnable, you dont need to win at any cost, but by all means continue to believe so.  We'll see who's right in ME3, then I suspect your argument will have lost all of its bite.

Reading faliure.
In the scenario posted, you didn't split the atom. You didn't have the knowledge. It's written there specificly.

And you really think the war is winnable? No, not really. You need a Deus Ex Machina (confirmed from ME3 leaks). So no, the galactic community can't defeat the reapers with conventional military forces and tactics.
Given the power demonstrated by a single reaper, twitter snippets from the devs (about Sovereing destroying a LOT more if it weren't for Sheppard), snippets from ME3 (homeworlds of major races fallen, their main fleets destroyed or butchered) and some basic common sense - it should have been pretty clear to everyone..

Except for you apparently.

Until then, have fun not agreeing with me, because I literally could care less about continuing a conversation with someone who is idealist as you are.  You don't want to debate the issues, you want to be right.  I don't have time for that.

I want to debate this issue with someoen who can put forth reasonable argument. So far you have not delivered.
So I couldn't care less about you not caring less.

[Lotion Soronarr]

111987 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

You also have to worry about indoctrination.

Sooner or later instead of worrying about it you may need to actually do something about it.

Like, avoiding it, perhaps?

Or use the research from Virmire that Rana Thanoplis could have? Pure data is less likely to threaten you than Reaper artifacts, baes, etc...

You can't avoid it forever. And you can't take your sweet time researching it.
Reapers wont' give you the time.
You need results and you need them YESTERDAY.


You're also starting from the assumptions that Ranas data is sufficient. Obviously, indoctrination is incredibly hard to crack.
And according to ME3  *SPOILER*
Cerberus cracked it, while others didn't
*SPOILER*

the comments about them not sharing are also blatantly false, as are comments about them wanting to harm other races

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 06 décembre 2011 - 07:33 .

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

111987 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

You also have to worry about indoctrination.

Sooner or later instead of worrying about it you may need to actually do something about it.

Like, avoiding it, perhaps?

Or use the research from Virmire that Rana Thanoplis could have? Pure data is less likely to threaten you than Reaper artifacts, baes, etc...

You can't avoid it forever. And you can't take your sweet time researching it.
Reapers wont' give you the time.
You need results and you need them YESTERDAY.

Yeah but how long would it take to research a reaper base properly until you get useful data to use and forge into a weapon against them? As you said, you only have months. I don't think it is so far off that if you put so much pressure on research, that stuff is overlooked or rushed and then you have it backfire. You just always assume that nothing bad can happen from using the base. That's about as wrong as assuming nothing good can come from it. The question is just, would you rather risk losing someting that could help you, or using something that may harm you?

[Lotion Soronarr]

How long it would take?
If we're talking indoctrination - a long time. It's apparenlty very complex. If it was easy and simple to crack, the reapers would have been defeated ages ago. The best Prothean scientists haven't cracked it apparently either.

The base itself is large, so it would take time to research too. But pure, focused tech (like a gun or a power coupling and stuff) is lesss dangerous. Not all reaper tech indoctrinates - only specific indoctrination devices.

That said, I do not assume nothing bad can happen from using the base.
I just realise that wihout the base (or some other deus ex machina) the galaxy is screwed. So while pushing research is dangerous, and studying the base is dangerous - it's not even remotely as dangerous as the reaper invasion.
So to risk loosing something that might be the key to your survival is a non-option.

Incorctrination is the reapers most insidious weapon. Organized military resistance becomes a nightmare unless you can protect yourself against it. How can you organize and plan military campaigns, when at any time, anyone can turn agaisnt you? And tha'ts assuming you can take on the reapers head-on...which the galaxy can't with it's current tech.

So ti doesn't really matter to whom you give the base - human, bararian, asari, volus...it could be Space Hitler for all I care. Anyone you give it too is still part of this organic life-cycle and it still in his best interest, and in the interest of survival to use it agaisnt the reapers.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

How long it would take?
If we're talking indoctrination - a long time. It's apparenlty very complex. If it was easy and simple to crack, the reapers would have been defeated ages ago. The best Prothean scientists haven't cracked it apparently either.

The base itself is large, so it would take time to research too. But pure, focused tech (like a gun or a power coupling and stuff) is lesss dangerous. Not all reaper tech indoctrinates - only specific indoctrination devices.

That said, I do not assume nothing bad can happen from using the base.
I just realise that wihout the base (or some other deus ex machina) the galaxy is screwed. So while pushing research is dangerous, and studying the base is dangerous - it's not even remotely as dangerous as the reaper invasion.
So to risk loosing something that might be the key to your survival is a non-option.

Incorctrination is the reapers most insidious weapon. Organized military resistance becomes a nightmare unless you can protect yourself against it. How can you organize and plan military campaigns, when at any time, anyone can turn agaisnt you? And tha'ts assuming you can take on the reapers head-on...which the galaxy can't with it's current tech.

So ti doesn't really matter to whom you give the base - human, bararian, asari, volus...it could be Space Hitler for all I care. Anyone you give it too is still part of this organic life-cycle and it still in his best interest, and in the interest of survival to use it agaisnt the reapers.

Two things. I don't think we have proof that we are screwed without the base. I don't think there are real hard facts backing up this theory either. The other is Saren. He was an organic, would you have given him the base, he would have went right to his Reaper friends to use it against you. So no, you can't give it to space Hitler and just assume it will help you just because he is an organic. As far as I know treason is a feat of mostly organic species. If I was to guess not all organics ever fought the Reapers, some of them may as well have been voluntary indoctrinated because they thought they can escape their fate, like Saren.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

"It's just a  show game, everyone should really just relax."

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 06 décembre 2011 - 08:25 .