1667 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Two things. I don't think we have proof that we are screwed without the base. I don't think there are real hard facts backing up this theory either.

The uncertainty is precisely why you need to keep the base. You just don't know. If you blow up the base you cannot rebuild it but if you keep it you can always blow it up later.

I don't think the game treats it like this. I am usually of this mind. I saved the Rachni argueing that I could kill them later if it proves a mistake. Why not same with the base? Because it is a sort of silly argument. 'I can do it later' is also sort of metagaming, suggesting that you get the chance. Which may not be so. You maybe can't fix the Rachni thing if it turns out a wrong decision and neither can you destroy the base later. Not without going through TIM anyway. I think maybe all in all it was a morale decision to destroy it. At the very least I did not have enough reason to keep it. Or rather to give it to Cerberus, because Shepard's not really keeping it in any way. You can just choose the 'lesser evil' which is probably up for debate.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...
Two things. I don't think we have proof that we are screwed without the base. I don't think there are real hard facts backing up this theory either. The other is Saren. He was an organic, would you have given him the base, he would have went right to his Reaper friends to use it against you. So no, you can't give it to space Hitler and just assume it will help you just because he is an organic. As far as I know treason is a feat of mostly organic species. If I was to guess not all organics ever fought the Reapers, some of them may as well have been voluntary indoctrinated because they thought they can escape their fate, like Saren.

Do you have proof we can take the reapers on?

There's thousands of them. Their defenses and weapons are far superior to ours. Sovereign himself took on an entire fleet (with dreadnoughts), and even though he was immobile he took out a good chunck of hte fleet. And the devs tolds us wihout Shep disrupting it by destroying the avatar, Soverign would have done a LOT more damage before being brought down.
A large reapers has 8 tracking guns that can one-shot a cruiser and 1 that can one-shot a dreadnought. A Reaper fleet has an horrifying alpha-strike potential. Reapers can easiyly achieve and hold space superiority - and if they hold space, they hold the ultimate high ground.

Then there's indoctrination, and with thousands of reapers and indoctrination devices, you're gonna be fighting your own forces. So exactly where do you see victory?
There is no guarantee that the CB will enable victory - however, wihout SOMETHING, defeat is certain.


Your second point, about Saren, is flawed. Saren was indoctrinated. TIM isn't.
And if you're so afraid of indoctrination, to whom would you give the base? The Council? Are you sure they arne't indoctrinated? The Alliance? Are they indoctrinated? You can't detect indoctrination, so whom can you trust?
If you deduce you can't trust anyone and you blow up the base, then  you just shot yourself in the foot here, since you're throwing away the means ot survive out of fear.
So yes - I can give it to Space Hitler. Because Space Hitler and the people working for him want to live too and doesn't want to be a slave. And if Space Hitler turns to be indoctrinated or a traitor - it's still a risk worth taking.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Two things. I don't think we have proof that we are screwed without the base. I don't think there are real hard facts backing up this theory either.

The uncertainty is precisely why you need to keep the base. You just don't know. If you blow up the base you cannot rebuild it but if you keep it you can always blow it up later.

I don't think the game treats it like this. I am usually of this mind. I saved the Rachni argueing that I could kill them later if it proves a mistake. Why not same with the base? Because it is a sort of silly argument. 'I can do it later' is also sort of metagaming, suggesting that you get the chance. Which may not be so. You maybe can't fix the Rachni thing if it turns out a wrong decision and neither can you destroy the base later. Not without going through TIM anyway. I think maybe all in all it was a morale decision to destroy it. At the very least I did not have enough reason to keep it. Or rather to give it to Cerberus, because Shepard's not really keeping it in any way. You can just choose the 'lesser evil' which is probably up for debate.

It's a base. It's static. It CAN'T run away. You know it's location. So where exactly does this "you can't destroy it" come from?
What exactly is stopping Shep from telling the Council/Alliance about the base? All they need to do is send 1 DN or 2-3 cruisers and the base is toast.

And why would you want ot destroy the base AT ALL?
If Cerberus abuses it? Take it over. Steal their research. Or strand them behind the Omega Relay.
If the reapers take it back? Who cares. It's such a non-factor in the war on the reapers side that it really doesn't matter.

Point is, there's tons of logical options. The benefits of the base are clear. Slinghshotting the human races technology by a 100-200 years is a friggin BIG boon.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Two things. I don't think we have proof that we are screwed without the base. I don't think there are real hard facts backing up this theory either. The other is Saren. He was an organic, would you have given him the base, he would have went right to his Reaper friends to use it against you. So no, you can't give it to space Hitler and just assume it will help you just because he is an organic. As far as I know treason is a feat of mostly organic species. If I was to guess not all organics ever fought the Reapers, some of them may as well have been voluntary indoctrinated because they thought they can escape their fate, like Saren.

Do you have proof we can take the reapers on?

There's thousands of them. Their defenses and weapons are far superior to ours. Sovereign himself took on an entire fleet (with dreadnoughts), and even though he was immobile he took out a good chunck of hte fleet. And the devs tolds us wihout Shep disrupting it by destroying the avatar, Soverign would have done a LOT more damage before being brought down.
A large reapers has 8 tracking guns that can one-shot a cruiser and 1 that can one-shot a dreadnought. A Reaper fleet has an horrifying alpha-strike potential. Reapers can easiyly achieve and hold space superiority - and if they hold space, they hold the ultimate high ground.

Then there's indoctrination, and with thousands of reapers and indoctrination devices, you're gonna be fighting your own forces. So exactly where do you see victory?
There is no guarantee that the CB will enable victory - however, wihout SOMETHING, defeat is certain.


Your second point, about Saren, is flawed. Saren was indoctrinated. TIM isn't.
And if you're so afraid of indoctrination, to whom would you give the base? The Council? Are you sure they arne't indoctrinated? The Alliance? Are they indoctrinated? You can't detect indoctrination, so whom can you trust?
If you deduce you can't trust anyone and you blow up the base, then  you just shot yourself in the foot here, since you're throwing away the means ot survive out of fear.
So yes - I can give it to Space Hitler. Because Space Hitler and the people working for him want to live too and doesn't want to be a slave. And if Space Hitler turns to be indoctrinated or a traitor - it's still a risk worth taking.

Well I have the strong feeling we can do it without base, same reason why Shepard stole the Normandy and went to Ilos against the Council's wish. It is just the 'Shepard is awesome' theme throughout the whole franchise.

Saren was indoctrinated, but he was not born so. At some point he probably made the choice.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Two things. I don't think we have proof that we are screwed without the base. I don't think there are real hard facts backing up this theory either.

The uncertainty is precisely why you need to keep the base. You just don't know. If you blow up the base you cannot rebuild it but if you keep it you can always blow it up later.

I don't think the game treats it like this. I am usually of this mind. I saved the Rachni argueing that I could kill them later if it proves a mistake. Why not same with the base? Because it is a sort of silly argument. 'I can do it later' is also sort of metagaming, suggesting that you get the chance. Which may not be so. You maybe can't fix the Rachni thing if it turns out a wrong decision and neither can you destroy the base later. Not without going through TIM anyway. I think maybe all in all it was a morale decision to destroy it. At the very least I did not have enough reason to keep it. Or rather to give it to Cerberus, because Shepard's not really keeping it in any way. You can just choose the 'lesser evil' which is probably up for debate.

It's a base. It's static. It CAN'T run away. You know it's location. So where exactly does this "you can't destroy it" come from?
What exactly is stopping Shep from telling the Council/Alliance about the base? All they need to do is send 1 DN or 2-3 cruisers and the base is toast.

And why would you want ot destroy the base AT ALL?
If Cerberus abuses it? Take it over. Steal their research. Or strand them behind the Omega Relay.
If the reapers take it back? Who cares. It's such a non-factor in the war on the reapers side that it really doesn't matter.

Point is, there's tons of logical options. The benefits of the base are clear. Slinghshotting the human races technology by a 100-200 years is a friggin BIG boon.

Why did I not have the choice in the game? If in the game I could tell TIM that I keep the base for myself or the Alliance instead of giving it to him I would have. Basically the game only gives us the choice to destroy it or give it to Cerberus. I conclude that this choice is final. Otherwise I could have other options. I mean I could argue that any choice you ever make is reverseable. But I doubt the game will support this. At the end of the day it is only a game and thinking too complicated only sends you on the wrong way. The game asks you if you support TIM or the Alliance. Keeping it is support for TIM, destroying it is support for the Alliance. That's how I see it anyway.

I would have loved to put Shep in charge of the base tbh. and in ME3 I would lead the resistance from there. But that's not a choice we have I think.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 06 décembre 2011 - 09:25 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Two things. I don't think we have proof that we are screwed without the base. I don't think there are real hard facts backing up this theory either.

The uncertainty is precisely why you need to keep the base. You just don't know. If you blow up the base you cannot rebuild it but if you keep it you can always blow it up later.

I don't think the game treats it like this. I am usually of this mind. I saved the Rachni argueing that I could kill them later if it proves a mistake. Why not same with the base? Because it is a sort of silly argument. 'I can do it later' is also sort of metagaming, suggesting that you get the chance. Which may not be so. You maybe can't fix the Rachni thing if it turns out a wrong decision and neither can you destroy the base later. Not without going through TIM anyway. I think maybe all in all it was a morale decision to destroy it. At the very least I did not have enough reason to keep it. Or rather to give it to Cerberus, because Shepard's not really keeping it in any way. You can just choose the 'lesser evil' which is probably up for debate.

It's a base. It's static. It CAN'T run away. You know it's location. So where exactly does this "you can't destroy it" come from?
What exactly is stopping Shep from telling the Council/Alliance about the base? All they need to do is send 1 DN or 2-3 cruisers and the base is toast.

And why would you want ot destroy the base AT ALL?
If Cerberus abuses it? Take it over. Steal their research. Or strand them behind the Omega Relay.
If the reapers take it back? Who cares. It's such a non-factor in the war on the reapers side that it really doesn't matter.

Point is, there's tons of logical options. The benefits of the base are clear. Slinghshotting the human races technology by a 100-200 years is a friggin BIG boon.

Why did I not have the choice in the game? If in the game I could tell TIM that I keep the base for myself or the Alliance instead of giving it to him I would have. Basically the game only gives us the choice to destroy it or give it to Cerberus. I conclude that this choice is final. Otherwise I could have other options. I mean I could argue that any choice you ever make is reverseable. But I doubt the game will support this. At the end of the day it is only a game and thinking too complicated only sends you on the wrong way. The game asks you if you support TIM or the Alliance. Keeping it is support for TIM, destroying it is support for the Alliance. That's how I see it anyway.

I would have loved to put Shep in charge of the base tbh. and in ME3 I would lead the resistance from there. But that's not a choice we have I think.

Well, did the game tell you you WON'T have a choice to blow it up later? The game doesn't tell you the future.
It's true that games limit ones choices, but the issue here is choosing the best between the choices we do have.

And how could Shep keep it for himself? He's just one man with just 1 ship. He really doesn't have the resources by himself to make any proper use of it.

And really, are you supporting the Alliance by destroying the base? Are you suporting anyone (except the reapers) with that move?

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

Do you have proof we can take the reapers on?

There's thousands of them. Their defenses and weapons are far superior to ours. Sovereign himself took on an entire fleet (with dreadnoughts), and even though he was immobile he took out a good chunck of hte fleet. And the devs tolds us wihout Shep disrupting it by destroying the avatar, Soverign would have done a LOT more damage before being brought down.
A large reapers has 8 tracking guns that can one-shot a cruiser and 1 that can one-shot a dreadnought. A Reaper fleet has an horrifying alpha-strike potential. Reapers can easiyly achieve and hold space superiority - and if they hold space, they hold the ultimate high ground.

Then there's indoctrination, and with thousands of reapers and indoctrination devices, you're gonna be fighting your own forces. So exactly where do you see victory?
There is no guarantee that the CB will enable victory - however, wihout SOMETHING, defeat is certain.


Your second point, about Saren, is flawed. Saren was indoctrinated. TIM isn't.
And if you're so afraid of indoctrination, to whom would you give the base? The Council? Are you sure they arne't indoctrinated? The Alliance? Are they indoctrinated? You can't detect indoctrination, so whom can you trust?
If you deduce you can't trust anyone and you blow up the base, then  you just shot yourself in the foot here, since you're throwing away the means ot survive out of fear.
So yes - I can give it to Space Hitler. Because Space Hitler and the people working for him want to live too and doesn't want to be a slave. And if Space Hitler turns to be indoctrinated or a traitor - it's still a risk worth taking.

Well I have the strong feeling we can do it without base, same reason why Shepard stole the Normandy and went to Ilos against the Council's wish. It is just the 'Shepard is awesome' theme throughout the whole franchise.

Saren was indoctrinated, but he was not born so. At some point he probably made the choice.

Yeah...base the survival of your race and all races in the galaxy on a "feeling", instead of actual facts and logic...

"I'm a hero, I'm invincible and I will win" is not a rational way of thinking in any sensible universe..Except in comedic universes where the characters are AWARE that they are in a fictional universe and it's used for laughs.

Also, indoctrination is not a choice. You don't CHOOSE to be indoctrinated any more you choose to be infected with a virus.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 06 décembre 2011 - 09:40 .

[MysticSpace]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Honestly - I believe SWM has been hating on Cerberus long before spoilers... that would make harping on his use of spoiler knowledge largely just taking acception with his use of "I told you so."

NOTE: I could be wrong - perhaps SWM used to love Cerberus and has only now changed his view - please correct if mistaken.

First, more than likely.

Second, nah.

I just had a bit more respect for their actions then, when they didn't try to cover them up with lies and do what most people would find to just be disgusting.

Like with admiral Kahuko (or however you spell his name) in ME1. He got too close and they killed him for it. I didn't like that, but I can see the reason why they did it.

Sure, it's less easy for me to see why they're using Alliance soldiers as bait for maws, but at least they tried to do something good with it. Even if the way they did it was pretty dumb.

In ME2, TIM pretty much sacrifices whole damn colonies, on a hunch and didn't even admit that it was wrong. And attacked a ship in the quarian fleet while not even trying to minimize casualties and then says it was nothing personal. There goes the little sympathy I had for them down the toilet.

Don't forget the leading you into the collector trap and then saying he didn't want you tipping off the collectors by being informed before hand...like Harbinger studied method acting or something.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Well, did the game tell you you WON'T have a choice to blow it up later? The game doesn't tell you the future.
It's true that games limit ones choices, but the issue here is choosing the best between the choices we do have.

And how could Shep keep it for himself? He's just one man with just 1 ship. He really doesn't have the resources by himself to make any proper use of it.

And really, are you supporting the Alliance by destroying the base? Are you suporting anyone (except the reapers) with that move?

Tbh I was going to wait for ME3 anyway. If ME3 lets me destroy the base later I may even make it my canon playthrough to keep it. Hell if ME3 makes the base a useful tool I will gladly use it. It's not so much about evaluating the base but more about anticipating what Bioware is up to with their story and this choice. My bet would be that giving the base to Cerberus will make it harder for Shep to defend Earth and humanity in ME3. Simply because the alien races will view him as a xenophobe and only reluctantly send help.

The big question we have here is whether Bioware is unsheathing the big morale hammer in ME3 to punish all those who failed their 'morale checkpoints'. And I think that's what is going to happen.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Yeah...base the survival of your race and all races in the galaxy on a "feeling", instead of actual facts and logic...

"I'm a hero, I'm invincible and I will win" is not a rational way of thinking in any sensible universe..Except in comedic universes where the characters are AWARE that they are in a fictional universe and it's used for laughs.

Also, indoctrination is not a choice. You don't CHOOSE to be indoctrinated any more you choose to be infected with a virus.

You can take the risk of being infected with a virus. You can take precautions. And you can get it remedied as soon as you notice. According to Anderson Saren alsways was a renegade type, which fits the fact that he sided with the Reapers at some point. Since it is simply opportunistic. He figured they win anyway, so why fight against it if you can save your life serving them. It is a matter of die as a free man or live as a slave. Some choose this and some the other.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 06 décembre 2011 - 09:48 .

[CerberusWarrior]

Bioware has no understanding of what assets are all about if you keep the base you can learn about the reapers . But oh no Bioware makes that a flat out wrong choice when Shepard's crew goes ape sh*t on how bad it was to keep the base . yeah the crew he / she puts together turns its back on him if you keep the base .

[AlexXIV]

CW where have you been all day? I have been starting to miss you already!

[CerberusWarrior]

AlexXIV wrote...

CW where have you been all day? I have been starting to miss you already!

 

Oh I am here been lurking and reading topics .

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Yeah...base the survival of your race and all races in the galaxy on a "feeling", instead of actual facts and logic...

"I'm a hero, I'm invincible and I will win" is not a rational way of thinking in any sensible universe..Except in comedic universes where the characters are AWARE that they are in a fictional universe and it's used for laughs.

Also, indoctrination is not a choice. You don't CHOOSE to be indoctrinated any more you choose to be infected with a virus.

You can take the risk of being infected with a virus. You can take precautions. And you can get it remedied as soon as you notice. According to Anderson Saren alsways was a renegade type, which fits the fact that he sided with the Reapers at some point. Since it is simply opportunistic. He figured they win anyway, so why fight against it if you can save your life serving them. It is a matter of die as a free man or live as a slave. Some choose this and some the other.

You can't take those with indoctrination. No one knows how it works. It's not detectable. There is no protection or antidote.
You realise it's indoctrination that affected Saren to serve the reapers? Indoctrination can turn a man who hates them and wants to fight them into an obediant servant.

The only "precaution" you can take is to stay away from anything that looks like reaper tech (assuming you can detect it in the first place). Unfortunately, that is not possible, since the reapers will come and they won't stay away from you.

So you either risk exposure now in an effort to find a way to prevent it..... or just avoid the problem untill it hits you like a train - and by then you'll be exposed anyway and it will be too late to do anything about it.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Yeah...base the survival of your race and all races in the galaxy on a "feeling", instead of actual facts and logic...

"I'm a hero, I'm invincible and I will win" is not a rational way of thinking in any sensible universe..Except in comedic universes where the characters are AWARE that they are in a fictional universe and it's used for laughs.

Also, indoctrination is not a choice. You don't CHOOSE to be indoctrinated any more you choose to be infected with a virus.

You can take the risk of being infected with a virus. You can take precautions. And you can get it remedied as soon as you notice. According to Anderson Saren alsways was a renegade type, which fits the fact that he sided with the Reapers at some point. Since it is simply opportunistic. He figured they win anyway, so why fight against it if you can save your life serving them. It is a matter of die as a free man or live as a slave. Some choose this and some the other.

You can't take those with indoctrination. No one knows how it works. It's not detectable. There is no protection or antidote.
You realise it's indoctrination that affected Saren to serve the reapers? Indoctrination can turn a man who hates them and wants to fight them into an obediant servant.

The only "precaution" you can take is to stay away from anything that looks like reaper tech (assuming you can detect it in the first place). Unfortunately, that is not possible, since the reapers will come and they won't stay away from you.

So you either risk exposure now in an effort to find a way to prevent it..... or just avoid the problem untill it hits you like a train - and by then you'll be exposed anyway and it will be too late to do anything about it.

For something nobody knows how it works you know an awful lot about it

Well I think when meeting Saren he had at times a choice. If you tried the paragon lines on the citadel you can even convince him and he commits suicide. So I find it a bit early to say there is no escape. I think in Saren's case it was simply because the indoctrination wasn't far off of his orignial character and logic. I mean if he turned around 180° someone would have noticed, even he himself maybe. But there was probably not much indoctrination necessary to convince him to begin with. He had the knowledge of the Reapers first. He knew about the circles of genocide when nobody else had the slightest clue. That was quite a burden for just one person. And of course then he figured he'd be the one who has to make the call. Not unlike Shepard actually.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 06 décembre 2011 - 11:27 .

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I don't think Saren was indoctrinated at all until Sovereign implanted him after Virmire.

Well when Shepard prevented the destruction of the beacon on Eden Prime Saren raged at Benezia, so there is a chance they have been indoctrinated to a certain extent already. I felt it was more Sovereign's rage anyhow than Saren's.

It's probably how it works. Their minds are linked and if Sovereign is angry, those indoctrinated feel it too.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 06 décembre 2011 - 11:34 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...
For something nobody knows how it works you know an awful lot about it

Well I think when meeting Saren he had at times a choice. If you tried the paragon lines on the citadel you can even convince him and he commits suicide. So I find it a bit early to say there is no escape. I think in Saren's case it was simply because the indoctrination wasn't far off of his orignial character and logic. I mean if he turned around 180° someone would have noticed, even he himself maybe. But there was probably not much indoctrination necessary to convince him to begin with. He had the knowledge of the Reapers first. He knew about the circles of genocide when nobody else had the slightest clue. That was quite a burden for just one person. And of course then he figured he'd be the one who has to make the call. Not unlike Shepard actually.

I know what the game told and showed.
Case in point - Kenson. Acting perfectly normal, yet toally indoctrinateed.

In Sarens case, I think attacking a human colony classifies as being turend. Reaper indoctrination works by slowly altering your own thoughts..untill you agree with their logic.
Saren was specificly left less indoctrinated to keep him more effective.

Now, we can argue how far Saren was from the turian he used to be, but that's beside the point.
Point is - you can't really fight indoctrination with willpower alone. Anyone can be broken. Anyone.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
For something nobody knows how it works you know an awful lot about it

Well I think when meeting Saren he had at times a choice. If you tried the paragon lines on the citadel you can even convince him and he commits suicide. So I find it a bit early to say there is no escape. I think in Saren's case it was simply because the indoctrination wasn't far off of his orignial character and logic. I mean if he turned around 180° someone would have noticed, even he himself maybe. But there was probably not much indoctrination necessary to convince him to begin with. He had the knowledge of the Reapers first. He knew about the circles of genocide when nobody else had the slightest clue. That was quite a burden for just one person. And of course then he figured he'd be the one who has to make the call. Not unlike Shepard actually.

I know what the game told and showed.
Case in point - Kenson. Acting perfectly normal, yet toally indoctrinateed.

In Sarens case, I think attacking a human colony classifies as being turend. Reaper indoctrination works by slowly altering your own thoughts..untill you agree with their logic.
Saren was specificly left less indoctrinated to keep him more effective.

Now, we can argue how far Saren was from the turian he used to be, but that's beside the point.
Point is - you can't really fight indoctrination with willpower alone. Anyone can be broken. Anyone.

I disagree. For one Saren always hated humans. Also I think you cannot indoctrinate every person, as you cannot hypnotize every person. Maybe with help of medications, but even then. I like to believe that some people rather die than turn. If not, then how could the Reapers ever fail? They could not.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 06 décembre 2011 - 11:37 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]AlexXIV wrote...
I know what the game told and showed.
Case in point - Kenson. Acting perfectly normal, yet toally indoctrinateed.

In Sarens case, I think attacking a human colony classifies as being turend. Reaper indoctrination works by slowly altering your own thoughts..untill you agree with their logic.
Saren was specificly left less indoctrinated to keep him more effective.

Now, we can argue how far Saren was from the turian he used to be, but that's beside the point.
Point is - you can't really fight indoctrination with willpower alone. Anyone can be broken. Anyone.

[/quote]
I disagree. For one Saren always hated humans. Also I think you cannot indoctrinate every person, as you cannot hypnotize every person. Maybe with help of medications, but even then. I like to believe that some people rather die than turn. If not, then how could the Reapers ever fail? They could not.[/quote]

This fantasy of the endless power of human will is the territory of shonen anime, not reality.

Now, can people kill themselves? Maybe. Saren suceeded. Grayson didn't.
As I said before, indoctrination alters your thought patterns.

"I should kill myself" becomes "That's a cowards way out. I can fight this".. or something similar. That's not to say that different people can't reisist to different degrees. But any resistance can be overcome.
Esentially, reapers work with what appeals to you the most. Logic, religion, emotion, greed,etc - whatever draws the person the most they will use it.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

This fantasy of the endless power of human will is the territory of shonen anime, not reality.

In that case I prefer shonen anime to reality. Even though I have no clue what that means.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 06 décembre 2011 - 11:49 .

[Homebound]

You'd think Cerberus would've learned their lesson by now dealing with Reaper tech but nope. Good ole TiM, willing to sacrifice humanity to save humanity.