1667 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

111987 wrote...

The differences between those other motives and Cerberus's motives is that those motives aren't a direct threat to the overarching goal of defeating the Reapers. Curing the genophage won't ruin the galaxy's chances against the Reapers. The Quarians want to beat the Reapers and the Geth, which is why my Shepard urged them not to go to war and will do everything he can in ME3 to prevent a war. The Quarians are like Cerberus in the sense that their motivations threaten the war effort, and that is unacceptable.

Cerberus on the other hand, their goal puts them against the other races. Like the Quarians, this is not acceptable. Giving Cerberus the base would be the equivalent of giving the Quarians a bomb to blow up the Geth; I wouldn't do that either.

Of course everyone has ulterior motives, but the groups whose ulterior motives out themselves against the ultimate goal of defeating the Reapers need to be dealt with in some form.

If Cerberus's motive A (assuring human dominance) gets in the way with Cerberus motive B (surviving the Reapers), then Cerberus motive A would be foiled by, well, Cerberus motive A. If you can't survive the Reapers you won't have Human Dominance, ergo Cerberus Motive A, in order to fulfill itself, can't get in the way of B. Which everyone agrees on. You might as well argue that a person's goal in getting rich will get in the way of surviving, even though they can't be rich if they don't survive.

You're arguing at cross purposes. Any secondary objective, if taken to an unreasonable extreme, will be unreasonable. Not curing the Genophage would doom the galaxy, because the Krogan are quite willing to see the galaxy burn if they aren't cured. But there's nothing intrensic in the Cerberus goal that gets in the way of the Reaper War, any more than the Council's goals or anyone else's goals. The post-war goals might be incompatible (Human dominance), but that's the difference of opinion all alliances overcome.

There's nothing in the Cerberus mission statement that says 'we must reach dominance via/by the end of the Reaper War': that's a goal you're made up for yourself. Establish why Cerberus's long-terms goals get in the way of beating the Reapers, any more than anyone else's mutually exclusive goals.

[111987]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

111987 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

111987 wrote...

When people, governments, or whatever are uunified in an alliance, that member of that alliance all have a common goal. in this case, defeating the Reapers.

However, Cerberus has two main goals; defeat the Reapers, and secure human dominance. That second goal is dangerous as it likely would put Cerberus at odds with the rest of the galaxy.

All those other people, governments, and whatever also have other goals as well: their own interests.

The Council wants to beat the Reapers, and also stay top-dog. The Krogan want to beat the Reapers, and cure the genophage. The Quarians want to beat the Reapers, and beat the Geth. The Geth want to beat the Reapers, and not have to change their way of 'life.' The Terminus want to beat the Reapers, and not fall under Council influence. The Salarians want to beat the Reapers, but not set up another species like the Krogan to become threats down the road. Etc. The Hanar want to beat the Reapers, and not be sacrificed in the name of the greater good.

The thing about unified alliances is that they never have been all that unified: they have a common goal, but they don't share common interests by the nature of being in an alliance. That's just the nature of cooperation: you agree to work together because it's in your interests, but no one completely renounces their own interests.

The differences between those other motives and Cerberus's motives is that those motives aren't a direct threat to the overarching goal of defeating the Reapers. Curing the genophage won't ruin the galaxy's chances against the Reapers. The Quarians want to beat the Reapers and the Geth, which is why my Shepard urged them not to go to war and will do everything he can in ME3 to prevent a war. The Quarians are like Cerberus in the sense that their motivations threaten the war effort, and that is unacceptable.

Cerberus on the other hand, their goal puts them against the other races. Like the Quarians, this is not acceptable. Giving Cerberus the base would be the equivalent of giving the Quarians a bomb to blow up the Geth; I wouldn't do that either.

Of course everyone has ulterior motives, but the groups whose ulterior motives out themselves against the ultimate goal of defeating the Reapers need to be dealt with in some form.

Funny how you deliberatly fail to mention all the races.

Also funny how you ignore the fact all governments have the interests of their own poeple at first place. They all want dominance - they just aren't saying it out loud.

Cerberus goals aren't a direct threat to the anti-repaer effort. Quite contrary. They are the first one to start fighting them.

I didn't mention all races because I felt I made my point already. I can continue if you'd like.

I also did say that all governments have ulterior motives. It's bolded now.

[capn233]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

I bet Stalin was glad he kept Churchill on speed dial when the Third Reich marched on the Soviet Union.

I didn't want to invoke it, but WW2 is probably the best example of how the biggest alliances include different viewpoints.

And in hindsight we should have incorporated the Germans into the Western Allies and kept marching eastward until we got to Japan.

Maybe that's what Cerberus learned from 20th C history.

[111987]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

111987 wrote...

The differences between those other motives and Cerberus's motives is that those motives aren't a direct threat to the overarching goal of defeating the Reapers. Curing the genophage won't ruin the galaxy's chances against the Reapers. The Quarians want to beat the Reapers and the Geth, which is why my Shepard urged them not to go to war and will do everything he can in ME3 to prevent a war. The Quarians are like Cerberus in the sense that their motivations threaten the war effort, and that is unacceptable.

Cerberus on the other hand, their goal puts them against the other races. Like the Quarians, this is not acceptable. Giving Cerberus the base would be the equivalent of giving the Quarians a bomb to blow up the Geth; I wouldn't do that either.

Of course everyone has ulterior motives, but the groups whose ulterior motives out themselves against the ultimate goal of defeating the Reapers need to be dealt with in some form.

If Cerberus's motive A (assuring human dominance) gets in the way with Cerberus motive B (surviving the Reapers), then Cerberus motive A would be foiled by, well, Cerberus motive A. If you can't survive the Reapers you won't have Human Dominance, ergo Cerberus Motive A, in order to fulfill itself, can't get in the way of B. Which everyone agrees on. You might as well argue that a person's goal in getting rich will get in the way of surviving, even though they can't be rich if they don't survive.

You're arguing at cross purposes. Any secondary objective, if taken to an unreasonable extreme, will be unreasonable. Not curing the Genophage would doom the galaxy, because the Krogan are quite willing to see the galaxy burn if they aren't cured. But there's nothing intrensic in the Cerberus goal that gets in the way of the Reaper War, any more than the Council's goals or anyone else's goals. The post-war goals might be incompatible (Human dominance), but that's the difference of opinion all alliances overcome.

There's nothing in the Cerberus mission statement that says 'we must reach dominance via/by the end of the Reaper War': that's a goal you're made up for yourself. Establish why Cerberus's long-terms goals get in the way of beating the Reapers, any more than anyone else's mutually exclusive goals.

The point I'm trying to get across is that I believe that Cerberus motive A (secure human dominance) WILL get in the way of Cerberus motive B (survive the Reapers). That them having possession of the technology will give them the confidence and tools to cripple the other races, possibly at the expense of defeating the Reapers. Of course Cerberus would not believe that they would be jeapordizing the war effort, but they've messed up too many times in the past for me to wholly trust their judgement.

Cerberus's long term goals get in the way of defeating the Reapers because it is a situation unlike any the galaxy will ever see again. Cerberus is too small to pose a real threat to the other races; 150 agents cannot defeat species with empires that span the galaxy. However, with the coming of the Reapers, those great empires will be in total disarray and will suffer huge losses regardless of the ultimate outcome of the war. When all the great powers are weakened, Cerberus will be in the best situation it could possibly envision. They will be relatively untouched, and they will never have a better chance to achieve their central goal; secure human dominance in the galaxy.

Hell, if I was Cerberus, I'd be jumping at that chance too. Armed with the Collector Base, they might just become powerful enough to permanently cripple our alien allies. Sure, Cerberus wants to use the aliens to fight against the Reapers, but if victory is within grasp, I could easily see TIM sabotaging the aliens somehow to ensure humanity emerges from the conflict supreme.

Ultimately it comes down to trusting Cerberus and TIM. If they plan to use the Base to help the galaxy as a whole by sharing the tech, or at least waiting until the Reapers have been defeated before crippling the other races, then saving the base would be the best option. However if you are like me and don't trust Cerberus enough, then it makes sense to destroy the base. I know that not everyone will agree with this, and I actually do understand the viewpoints of the people who saved the Base; if I was in Shepard's place, I likely would have saved the base as well. However, I do disagree with the notion that people who destroyed the base are complete and utter idiots, as some suggest. In my mind, destroying the base can be seen as a logical choice.

It's almost a Renegade kind of logic; eliminate any potential threat. Like killing the Rachni, for example. Saving the Rachni could provide a huge army and fleet to fight the Reapers, but killing them removes the possibility of them being a threat (either after the war or via indoctrination). Destroying the base could backfire, but it also eliminates the threat of the preservation of the base backfiring.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

It ultimately comes down to whether players feel they can deal with TIM easier or the Reapers easier.

Without the base, TIM is not as big of a potential threat... the Reapers become a bigger threat though (as no answer has yet been found on how to stop them).

With the base, TIM becomes a bigger potential threat... and one that will ultimately have to be dealt with. However, the Reapers are now assumed to be easier to stop from what was found at the base.

If nothing of value is found at the base, then nothing is gained and TIM's no more dangerous than had the base been destroyed. The Reapers don't need the Collector base... and as the base is without defenses, destroying it would be easy.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 08 décembre 2011 - 05:44 .

[Medhia Nox]

TIM will be defeated by my Paragon Hug.

"Shhh.. it's okay - let it out." - My Shepard

*cries like a sodding baby* - TIM

Paragon wins AGAIN!

[DiebytheSword]

Medhia Nox wrote...

TIM will be defeated by my Paragon Hug.

"Shhh.. it's okay - let it out." - My Shepard

*cries like a sodding baby* - TIM

Paragon wins AGAIN!

"B-B-B-But there were patterns . . . in the data."

*waves omni tool and erases his database*

:innocent:

[Omega4RelayResident]

I wonder if the Cerberus Cheerleaders would still back Cerberus if instead of Martin Sheen doing the voice acting for TIM it was Charlie Sheen

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 08 décembre 2011 - 06:14 .

[shephawke]

i know it was martin sheen and i destroyed the base everytime due to the fact that it was really sick what it was doing and i wonder if the collectors will help you if u diddnt destroy the base seeing the leader was released from reaper control

Modifié par shephawke, 08 décembre 2011 - 06:39 .

[Dave of Canada]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

I wonder if the Cerberus Cheerleaders would still back Cerberus if instead of Martin Sheen doing the voice acting for TIM it was Charlie Sheen

We'd be WINNING.

[shephawke]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

I wonder if the Cerberus Cheerleaders would still back Cerberus if instead of Martin Sheen doing the voice acting for TIM it was Charlie Sheen

We'd be WINNING.

lol that was excellent

[111987]

shephawke wrote...

i know it was martin sheen and i destroyed the base everytime due to the fact that it was really sick what it was doing and i wonder if the collectors will help you if u diddnt destroy the base seeing the leader was released from reaper control

The Collector General was released from Reaper control because it was about to blow up...

[shephawke]

o ok sorry i always destroyed the base i diddnt know

[111987]

shephawke wrote...

o ok sorry i always destroyed the base i diddnt know

Well if you don't blow it up, the Collectors are all killed by the radiation pulse.

Also, the Reapers can take control over the Collectors at anytime so even if they did survive, they could never be allies.

[shephawke]

111987 wrote...

shephawke wrote...

o ok sorry i always destroyed the base i diddnt know

Well if you don't blow it up, the Collectors are all killed by the radiation pulse.

Also, the Reapers can take control over the Collectors at anytime so even if they did survive, they could never be allies.

it was just something i was thinking thanks for correcting me about the pulse

[111987]

shephawke wrote...

111987 wrote...

shephawke wrote...

o ok sorry i always destroyed the base i diddnt know

Well if you don't blow it up, the Collectors are all killed by the radiation pulse.

Also, the Reapers can take control over the Collectors at anytime so even if they did survive, they could never be allies.

it was just something i was thinking thanks for correcting me about the pulse

No problem :happy:. It would be an interesting twist, but unfortunately due to the nature of the Collectors, being implanted with Reaper tech and pretty much mindless indepdently, there's no way it could happen.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Well...such strong emotions and hate CERTANLY won't affect your judgment in any way. No, sir..

I just love when people like you are telling me that I have biased viewpoints.

Creates such laughable hypocrisy.

You openly admit your bias. So yes, I can call you out.
Now, if you find a post of mine where I admit bias, you might have something there. But you wont' find it. And you dont' have something there. You very very rarely ever have something of worth in your posts.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You openly admit your bias. So yes, I can call you out.
Now, if you find a post of mine where I admit bias, you might have something there. But you wont' find it. And you dont' have something there. You very very rarely ever have something of worth in your posts.

Oh, right back at you.

I don't expect someone as prideful as you to ever admit that you're wrong in any way, so engaging you in any kind of serious argument is just a gigantic waste of time.

[Lotion Soronarr]

111987 wrote...

The point I'm trying to get across is that I believe that Cerberus motive A (secure human dominance) WILL get in the way of Cerberus motive B (survive the Reapers). That them having possession of the technology will give them the confidence and tools to cripple the other races, possibly at the expense of defeating the Reapers. Of course Cerberus would not believe that they would be jeapordizing the war effort, but they've messed up too many times in the past for me to wholly trust their judgement.

Thank you for admitting how redicolous your theory is.

There is no logic in concluding Cerberus ulterior motives will get i nthe way of hte war, yet at the smae time ignore that others ulterior motives won't.
The only reason you belive that is because you hate Cerberus. That's it.

Cerberus's long term goals get in the way of defeating the Reapers because it is a situation unlike any the galaxy will ever see again. Cerberus is too small to pose a real threat to the other races; 150 agents cannot defeat species with empires that span the galaxy. However, with the coming of the Reapers, those great empires will be in total disarray and will suffer huge losses regardless of the ultimate outcome of the war. When all the great powers are weakened, Cerberus will be in the best situation it could possibly envision. They will be relatively untouched, and they will never have a better chance to achieve their central goal; secure human dominance in the galaxy.

First of all - the same applies for every OTEHR power too. It's a situation unlike the galaxy has never seen for everyone.
Second, you assume Cerberus will get out of it untouched. They don't get to dictate where the reapers will strike. It is highly possible Cerberus gets beheaded in the first few days of the war.

Thirdly, you ignore that Cerberus has CONSISTENTLY worked for 20 years to thwart the reapers. You ignore TIM was ready to sacrifice his life to stop the reapers (which would cripple Cerberus).
That doesn't bode well for your theory that Cerberus will not commit itself fully to fighting reapers. We see them do that again and again.
Didn't they also stop the terrorist attack on the Citadel? If your theory was correct, why would they do that? Wouldn't that weaken the other races?

Hell, if I was Cerberus, I'd be jumping at that chance too. Armed with the Collector Base, they might just become powerful enough to permanently cripple our alien allies. Sure, Cerberus wants to use the aliens to fight against the Reapers, but if victory is within grasp, I could easily see TIM sabotaging the aliens somehow to ensure humanity emerges from the conflict supreme.

And the leaders of every other faction could be trying to do something similar. You got any point here?

Ultimately it comes down to trusting Cerberus and TIM. If they plan to use the Base to help the galaxy as a whole by sharing the tech, or at least waiting until the Reapers have been defeated before crippling the other races, then saving the base would be the best option. However if you are like me and don't trust Cerberus enough, then it makes sense to destroy the base. I know that not everyone will agree with this, and I actually do understand the viewpoints of the people who saved the Base; if I was in Shepard's place, I likely would have saved the base as well. However, I do disagree with the notion that people who destroyed the base are complete and utter idiots, as some suggest. In my mind, destroying the base can be seen as a logical choice.

No, it doesn't make sense. Even if you dont' trust Cerberus, it doesn't make sense to destroy the base.
You are putting your trust issues ahead of the survival of the galaxy.
You are incapable of burrying any personal issues and biases, even in the face of galactic annihilation. Which is sheer folly.

Destroying the base is not a logical choice. Never was. Never will be.

The ideas of galactic unity and everyone banding together are nothing but pretty words, if you exclude factions simply because you do not like them.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, it doesn't make sense. Even if you dont' trust Cerberus, it doesn't make sense to destroy the base.
You are putting your trust issues ahead of the survival of the galaxy.
You are incapable of burrying any personal issues and biases, even in the face of galactic annihilation. Which is sheer folly.

Destroying the base is not a logical choice. Never was. Never will be.

The ideas of galactic unity and everyone banding together are nothing but pretty words, if you exclude factions simply because you do not like them.

It doesnt matter how hard you argue this YOU ARE WRONG.

Your entire pontification reminds me of someone who had similar ideas.

 

After dozens of movies, books, and games with a similar focus point you think you might have learned something being a Sci Fi / Fantasy fan.

Its not metagaming at this point... its common freaking sense.

And this goes out to those people that argue that Renegade choices are smarter choices and not necessarily evil.
www.youtube.com/watch Charge!

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 08 décembre 2011 - 09:25 .

[111987]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Thank you for admitting how redicolous your theory is.

There is no logic in concluding Cerberus ulterior motives will get i nthe way of hte war, yet at the smae time ignore that others ulterior motives won't.
The only reason you belive that is because you hate Cerberus. That's it.

Because I used the word 'believe', my theory is ridiculous?

I specifically used the word 'believe' because after all...it is just a theory. Just like everything we are talking about. I have already acknowledged I could be wrong. But not for the reasons you're suggesting.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
First of all - the same applies for every OTEHR power too. It's a situation unlike the galaxy has never seen for everyone.

No idea why you wrote this because it is completely irrelvant. You are simply disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. Moving on...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Second, you assume Cerberus will get out of it untouched. They don't get to dictate where the reapers will strike. It is highly possible Cerberus gets beheaded in the first few days of the war.

150 agents are a LOT easier to hide than a planet, or galactic empire. Just look at Illos. Plus, TIM himself is safe because absolutely no-one knows where he is.

The chances of Cerberus remaining relatively untouched versus the rest of the galaxy is much, MUCH higher. I don't know how you could disagree with this, unless you are disagreeing with everything i said for the sake of disagreeing (hmm...).

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Thirdly, you ignore that Cerberus has CONSISTENTLY worked for 20 years to thwart the reapers. You ignore TIM was ready to sacrifice his life to stop the reapers (which would cripple Cerberus).
That doesn't bode well for your theory that Cerberus will not commit itself fully to fighting reapers. We see them do that again and again.
Didn't they also stop the terrorist attack on the Citadel? If your theory was correct, why would they do that? Wouldn't that weaken the other races?

Does Shepard know Cerberus has worked for 20 years to thwart the Reapers? No; Shepard does not know the intimate details of TIM's past. All Shepard knows is that TIM has worked consistently to secure human dominance for 20 years, and only recently shifted focus towards the Reapers.

I don't recall when TIM was ready to sacrifice his life to stop the Reapers, so you'll have to be more specific. I never read any of the comics.

My theory isn't that Cerberus won't fully commit themselves to fighting the Reapers; it is that Cerberus will exploit the situation to permanently cripple the other races so that in the post-Reaper era, humanity will reign supreme. And this exploitation could doom the galaxy if it isn't handled absolutely perfectly (as it could ensure Reaper victory, for example). Cerberus has messed up too many times for me to believe they'll pull if off without a hitch.

They stopped the terrorist attack on the Citadel because a). having the Council killed wouldn't help humanity in any way, as a new Council would just be put into place and . the galaxy needs leadership against the Reapers. Cerberus definitely wants the other races as strong as possible to face the Reapers, but once they've served their purpose, I seriously doubt TIM would let them regain their strength if he had the means to prevent it (i.e. possible tech from the Collector Base).

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And the leaders of every other faction could be trying to do something similar. You got any point here?

No, they wouldn't. The rest of the galaxy appreciates the need for interconnectedness while Cerberus does not.

The rest of your post is just silly, pointless drivel about how wrong and illogical I am and how I have trust issues or something. Not to be rude, but it really isn't even worth responding to.

*waits for your next post to say that I am not even worth responding to*

[Labrev]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I feel the need to adress some rather redicolous fears:

1. TIM/Cerberus will use the CB to build a reaper
There are many problems with this assertion:

- What makes you think TIM would do that? What possible gain can be made from this? It's REDICOLOUSLY impractical as means to fight the reapers (or anyone else for that matter). TIM may be many thing, but he isn't THAT stupid.[/quote]

"Only two things are infinite in this world: the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not even sure about the former!" - Albert Einstein.

I've seen plenty of stupid on Cerberus' part to not write off the posibility of him not being THAT stupid. This idea is more of a hope than a conclusion that one can safely arrive at.[/quote]

Ironicly, that same posts applies to Alliance and Sheppard..and you.[/quote]

Wow. A response with 0 insight that can't put some legitimate concerns to rest. Figures.



[quote][quote]
[quote]- Why make a reaper when you can equip a ship with reaper tech - thus having a ship with just as powerfull shields, engines, weapons, etc.. WITHOUT any problems of control or human abduction?[/quote]
Unfortunately, that's not our call to make either way.[/quote]

So exactly does that adress my point?

You're basicly saying TIM and Cerberus will do something incredibly stupid and inefficient, for no other reason that it is stupid....[/quote]


No, I'm saying TIM might do something stupid. And actually no, building a Reaper would not be completely stupid. However, the problem is that I'm entrusting him tech that I don't believe he's responsible/wise enough to utilize the right way.

And if he does something stupid, it's my fault for trusting him.


 
[quote][quote]
[quote]- What makes you sure the Alliance of Council wouldn't do the same?[/quote]Who said they'd hand it to them? Giving the base to the Alliance/Council is another whole story in itself.[/quote]
That was aimed at people who say they would give the base to Alliance/Council.[/quote]

Unlike the Alliance and Council, we've seen the structure of Cerberus first-hand: no accountability. TIM sets up a cell and turns a blind eye to it. The cell is expected to meet benchmarks or it will be shutdown. How they get the results doesn't matter. As the threat of TIM pulling the plug looms over the cell, the cell cuts corners and something catastrophic happens.

Mistakes are okay, if you learn valuable things from them and don't make it again next time. However, Cerberus made the same mistake they did with Teltin all over again with Project Overlord. Overlord was actually worse. And I'm supposed to trust they'll safely/responsibly handle a base full of Reaper-tech? They might bring about galactic armaegoddon before the Reapers even begin to. They almost did already, on a technological scale.



[quote]What working knowledge do we have?
Opportunity DURING the war effort? You want to act when most of your navy is destroyed, your homeworlds are burning and indoctrination is runing rampant?
By that time it will be too late. What, you expect the reapers will kindly wait for us?[/quote]

Working knowledge: (1) a strategy that worked in the past (combined fleets to take down a Reaper - Sovereign); (2) Salvaged tech from Sovereign's ruins; (3) What we learned from O4 mission.


Note #2 can be done again during the war, and probably should be done regardess the state of the base and the galaxy.

I'm not sure if it's worse to believe the reapers will wait kindly for us, or not actively look for alternatives during the war itself just because they might be destroying things and indoctrinating people. Guess what, we could still find plenty of useful intel in that time to help us destroy them. Again, that should be part of the plan anyway.

What makes you think there will be no opportunity to stop them when they arrive? They took centuries for the Reapers to wipe out the Protheans entirely, and that was with the successful surpise attack through the Citadel when they stood no chance.




[quote][quote]No it's not. The worst tactical blunder one can make is to underestimate their enemy. You said it yourself, the base could contain massive technological knowledge/strength for whoever is left to salvage it. Who's to say that's not enough to make Cerberus as dangerous if not worse (especially if they choose to strike after the Reapers ravage the galaxy and are weaker than before)? Rhetorical question - the answer is no one. The possibilities for how they could use it are endless (and I detailed some of those in the post above).[/quote]

A load of BS.

How the heck can Cerberus be more dangerous or worse than the reapers? By what abortion of logic can one possibly come to that conclusion? Reapers destroy all life in the galaxy. They come in the thousands.

Cerberus, even with the tech granted by that ONE base, is limited by it's size (and I would say logistics). The worth of the base is in knowledge gain and technology distributed - if cerberus onyl keep everything to itself, then the value is greatly diminished.

After all, a thousand cerberus troops equipped with reaper tech are a formidable force - but against MILLIONS of troops of other factions AND a navy?
The possibilites are NOT endless. they are in fact, quite limited.[/quote]

It's easily possible, follow along:

(1) Reapers ravage galaxy, all races/nations have become greatly weakened.
(2) Cerberus has Collector base-of-operations to recreate the things the Reapers used to terrorize the galaxy.
(3) Cerberus decides they can establish dominance over a weak galaxy with Reaper gifts.


If you equate "as bad as Reapers" to literally "thousands of dreadnaughts that reap the galaxy" then no, they probably can't be as bad. If you see how they can still adopt Reaper methods without literally turning into a race of dreadnaughts, then it might make a little more sense. Reaper fate = you die, or live as a slave. Given the same weapons as the Reapers, I'm sure any group, even small, could bring about the same thing.

That Cerberus will distribute what they get out of the base is far from a guarantee either. Only they have the IFF. As far as we know, they are the only group that can access it. I should doubt they plan to change that either.


I can't figure out what value you place on the base anyway. On one hand, it is not a guess or leap in logic to presume it moves us forward hundreds of years. On the other, it's just one base and can't possibly make Cerberus too dangerous to deal with, with very limited possible ways of empowering its handler.






[quote][quote]
[quote]The first order of buisness is to ensure the survival of the current life cycle in the galaxy. Sorting out the details is left for later. We only get one shot at survival here - if you mess up, there is no fxing it later. Yet some people glady gamble with the entire galaxy just to satisfy their twisted morals.[/quote]

No. Nobody is going to fight for survival if it means living as a pisspot to one man/race/organization/nation/what-have-you. There is no difference beween that and getting reaped: either you die, or live as a slave.[/quote]

And you have some proof Cerberus would even want to enslave everyone? Or more importantly, be capable?

I'll give you another food for thogutht - slavery is a temporary condition. Extinction is permanent.
The bonds of slavery can be broken. The bonds of death cannot.[/quote]

Because power corrupts anyone and everyone. If they have the power establish galactic dominance (including, but not limited to, taking slaves), they will not sit on it. No one would.

Bonds of slavery can be broken .... except when living as slaves to the Reapers. Our society forms along the paths they desire. We live free, for some time. When the time comes, they estinguish us all as they desire. That is little more than slavery, we are just ignorant of our masters. Up to now, those bonds have not been broken yet.

You can try to defeat it entirely, or try to defeat it by creating a new problem.




[quote][quote]Assuming the races survive, therein you've posed an obvious threat. If given Reaper weapons, what's to stop Cerberus from wiping them all out beforehand to ensure they remain the strongest group in the galaxy and have a leg-up in control over everyone else, practicality? Who's to say an opportunity won't arise where they can safely do so without damaging the war efforts?[/quote]

With what? Cerberus doesn't have a navy.
It doesn't have the numbers to cover or control such a huge area of space.
It's like saying blackwater could conquer the whole earth if we give them advanced weapons.[/quote]

And in their small size, they threatened to bring about technological apocalypse courtesy Overlord. And that was an an accident.


[quote][quote]
By the way, if you think that the galaxy will be littered with reaper corpses for us to pick up and use ourselves, the argument that we have no other alternatives outside the base suffers a bit.[/quote]

Nope. Because you'll only have those corpses AFTER you survive the invasion. And if you don't have the tech necessary to do it beforehand you wont' survive it.[/quote]

As I said above, the Reapers needed centuries to finally wipe out the Protheans. And that was with the successful Citadel suprise-attack, when they had no chance.

I should doubt our survival will be short-lived, even if the damage is initially devastating.


[quote][quote]
Cerberus may not be big. But in their small size, they're still very dangerous. They've threatened technological apocalypse. They've conducted rachni experiments that blew up in their face, dumping them on random planets where the Alliance had to clean up after them. Their failure on Teltin produced one of the galaxy's most notorious criminals in Jack. That's what they do on a small-scale, merely when conducting experiments (which they will be doing, on the base!)[/quote]

And all of those were easily dealt with.
Not really big problems. A drop in the ocean compared to the reapres.
The races of the galaxy could easily wipe out Cerberus at any time - but they never put much effort into it.[/quote]

Wrong, those were luckily dealt with. I'd say being set back to the stone-ages in technology is a huge problem anyway. Jack was dealt with, after many lives were lost over her illegal activity. 1 is too many.



[quote]Faliure to win rachni wars: Extermiantion.
Krogan rebbelions are a better outcome in comparison.[/quote]

Per Mordin, the krogan rebellions were as bloody as the rachni wars. They were better off trying to fight the rachni the right way, the way they tried to fight the krogan before the genophage (which I don't happen to see as a bad thing, maybe they could've nutered the rachni instead).


[quote][quote]
Let's also take a step back and remember this is a video-game we're talking about, where such extreme/unlikely scenarios that I've been outlining here are more feasible of turning out than it probably would be in reality. It's not metagaming, not really. Just acknowledging that the "extreme" scenarios are not entirely extreme when dealing with a game. Extreme is par for the course and should be handled as such.[/quote]

It is metagaming, because Shepaprd doesn't know it's a game.[/quote]

No, it's making the point that no scenario is too extreme/unlikely to happen but more likely, and all must be considered. And again, that it is a game doesn't change my decision either.

Speaking of what Shepard thinks, he voices the same concern as I do even after keeping the base: that TIM/Cerberus dream of power. (FF to 1:09)

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 08 décembre 2011 - 04:13 .

[Omega4RelayResident]

@111987...

Dude you and I have disagreed before in the past... but we at least conceded to each other when one or the other had decent points. Lotion is another story.... he is either the most dedicated forum troll I have ever seen or he trully believes what he is saying.... I dont know which is worse.

@Hah Yes Reapers...

I am just as frustrated as you are. However TIM never lets an operation go unsupervised. Thats why there are never more than a dozen cells actively working on something. TIM likes his direct oversight. Even with his oversight he has a 50 / 50 success ratio. So many projects gone haywire. Overlord, Lazarus (that is assuming you blew up the CB), Derelict Reaper, The Rachni / Thorian Creeper experiments. The derelict Cerberus ship that failed with their experiments on Husks.

So even with direct oversight these projects fail. The Alliance being a better choice argument is simple. The Alliance has checks and balances to ensure projects wont go "Rogue" or be misused by their supervisors. There is no one that holds TIM accountable for his decisions and therefore he can misuse anything he pleases in any way he pleases with out directly being impacted by the consequences.

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 08 décembre 2011 - 07:10 .

[capn233]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...
The Alliance being a better choice argument is simple. The Alliance has checks and balances to ensure projects wont go "Rogue" or be misused by their supervisors.

Did they implement these checks and balances after Cerberus went rogue?

[AlexXIV]

capn233 wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...
The Alliance being a better choice argument is simple. The Alliance has checks and balances to ensure projects wont go "Rogue" or be misused by their supervisors.

Did they implement these checks and balances after Cerberus went rogue?

Yeah ... no ... they probably had some before, but after Cerberus going rogue they probably enforced them. But even then you can never make it absolutely unfailable. Especially there is the human factor. Whereever humans are involved there are also human weaknesses involved. But at least they try.