1667 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaiser Shepard]

capn233 wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...
The Alliance being a better choice argument is simple. The Alliance has checks and balances to ensure projects wont go "Rogue" or be misused by their supervisors.

Did they implement these checks and balances after Cerberus went rogue?

Nah, they did that after "The Project" did so in Arrival.

[naledgeborn]

 

[Heimdall]

Okay, there are quite logical reasons for destroying the base. Shepard doesn't give one but it isn't a stupid decision. My head canon Shepard did so for two related reasons. Trust for Cerberus is one. Not that Cerberus would directly intentionally impede the war effort, but the extremely immoral uses they would put the technology to. Shepard may not know about Grayson, but he did know about Cerberus' other unethical programs, not to mention the unflattering success rate of those programs. There's also the point that I believe Cerberus would limit control over any useful advances to themselves, so I'm skeptical as to how much impact they would have. I know people are going to say this reason is ignoring the practical necessity of combating the Reapers, but hear me out, this is not the only reason.

Every instance of studying intact Reaper technology, including the Inert Reaper and Object Rho, has been a complete disaster, resulting in indoctrination often enough. There's also the concern that the Reapers might be capable of interfacing with the base without the taking control the Collectors. Given these possibilities, there is a real chance the Collector base could prove detrimental to the war effort. Anyone suggesting otherwise is fooling themselves. This isn't a matter of "It couldn't hurt and might help". I understand the logic of those that kept the base. It has a chance to do good for the war effort. Both decisions are valid, it's just a matter of consider possible loss versus possible gain and the possibility it would have no impact at all.

[ForteSJGR]

http://imageshack.us...vesbyrzepi.jpg/

We all know this is the real reason to keep the base.....

Modifié par ForteSJGR, 09 décembre 2011 - 06:10 .

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

Personally the only technologies my Shepard would give to Cerberus would be the ones which can not harm people at all, it's a matter of thrust.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lord Aesir wrote...
Okay, there are quite logical reasons for destroying the base. Shepard doesn't give one but it isn't a stupid decision. My head canon Shepard did so for two related reasons. Trust for Cerberus is one. Not that Cerberus would directly intentionally impede the war effort, but the extremely immoral uses they would put the technology to. Shepard may not know about Grayson, but he did know about Cerberus' other unethical programs, not to mention the unflattering success rate of those programs. There's also the point that I believe Cerberus would limit control over any useful advances to themselves, so I'm skeptical as to how much impact they would have. I know people are going to say this reason is ignoring the practical necessity of combating the Reapers, but hear me out, this is not the only reason.

In a fight for survial of all inteligent life in the galaxy, nothing - no matter how henious - that safeguards life is immoral.

Youre judgment of their sucess rate is alos flawed.

Every instance of studying intact Reaper technology, including the Inert Reaper and Object Rho, has been a complete disaster, resulting in indoctrination often enough.

Adn you'll be faced with indoctrination either way. There's no avoiding it. You want to try and find a coutner to it now, or try it in the middel of a galactic war, when half of your populace is indoactrinated and your citites are burning?

There's also the concern that the Reapers might be capable of interfacing with the base without the taking control the Collectors.

Then why didn't they do it before?
Aslo, how would that help them exactly? The base has no weapons (that we seen). It cannot move.
How exactly can it aid hte reaper war effort (all that's assumign the reaper war effort needs any aid)

[Lotion Soronarr]

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...

Personally the only technologies my Shepard would give to Cerberus would be the ones which can not harm people at all, it's a matter of thrust.

And if you cannot overcome your trust issues in the face of total anihilation...you don't really deserve to survive.

Alliances are formed by common goals - not trust.
If Space Marines can ally themslves with xenos, then Cerberus really isn't an issue.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, it doesn't make sense. Even if you dont' trust Cerberus, it doesn't make sense to destroy the base.
You are putting your trust issues ahead of the survival of the galaxy.
You are incapable of burrying any personal issues and biases, even in the face of galactic annihilation. Which is sheer folly.

Destroying the base is not a logical choice. Never was. Never will be.

The ideas of galactic unity and everyone banding together are nothing but pretty words, if you exclude factions simply because you do not like them.

It doesnt matter how hard you argue this YOU ARE WRONG.

Your entire pontification reminds me of someone who had similar ideas.

*Boromir image*

After dozens of movies, books, and games with a similar focus point you think you might have learned something being a Sci Fi / Fantasy fan.

Its not metagaming at this point... its common freaking sense.

So how exactly does posting a Boromir image make any sense?

I fail to see a connection between a ring that oozes evil and effectively turns you evil (literaly) and who's use and existance ensures the survivial of Sauron... and Cerberus.

So what exactly is the lesson here?

[Lotion Soronarr]

111987 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
First of all - the same applies for every OTEHR power too. It's a situation unlike the galaxy has never seen for everyone.

No idea why you wrote this because it is completely irrelvant. You are simply disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. Moving on...

How is it irrelevant? It's a unique situation and any faction can make use of the chaos of war to get an upper hand.

Please, go ahead and dismiss anything that goes aginst your fragile theories...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Second, you assume Cerberus will get out of it untouched. They don't get to dictate where the reapers will strike. It is highly possible Cerberus gets beheaded in the first few days of the war.

150 agents are a LOT easier to hide than a planet, or galactic empire. Just look at Illos. Plus, TIM himself is safe because absolutely no-one knows where he is.

The chances of Cerberus remaining relatively untouched versus the rest of the galaxy is much, MUCH higher. I don't know how you could disagree with this, unless you are disagreeing with everything i said for the sake of disagreeing (hmm...).

No, because you dont' know where the reapers will strike. The first target they hit might as well be TIM's base.
And if Cerberus only has 150 agents and no resources that can be attacked and destroyer (like bases and stations) - then how can they be a threat?

In order for Cerberus to move their operative out of harms way, they must now where the harm will be in the first place. And no one does that. The reapers won't e-mail TIM before attacking telling him where they will strike.

I don't recall when TIM was ready to sacrifice his life to stop the Reapers, so you'll have to be more specific. I never read any of the comics.

The comic with reaperized Paul Grayson. TIM was ready to die to stop him.

My theory isn't that Cerberus won't fully commit themselves to fighting the Reapers; it is that Cerberus will exploit the situation to permanently cripple the other races so that in the post-Reaper era, humanity will reign supreme.

Which you cannot prove.
And you also cannot prove other factions/races won't try to do the same.

So unless you have something else you can add to the table, your mistrust is baseless and illogical.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And the leaders of every other faction could be trying to do something similar. You got any point here?

No, they wouldn't. The rest of the galaxy appreciates the need for interconnectedness while Cerberus does not.

Sauce. Proof.

Just saiyng TIM/Cerberus wants to conquer everyone and the others don't is worthless.
What proof you have the others woudln't? I repeated this question many times.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 09 décembre 2011 - 08:55 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
Wow. A response with 0 insight that can't put some legitimate concerns to rest. Figures.[/quote]

"Characters I don't like will act like morons, despite not showing such traits before" is not a legitimate concen.

Next.





[quote][quote]So exactly does that adress my point?

You're basicly saying TIM and Cerberus will do something incredibly stupid and inefficient, for no other reason that it is stupid....[/quote]


No, I'm saying TIM might do something stupid. And actually no, building a Reaper would not be completely stupid. However, the problem is that I'm entrusting him tech that I don't believe he's responsible/wise enough to utilize the right way.

And if he does something stupid, it's my fault for trusting him.[/quote]

He MIGHT? And how likely would that be? And coudltn' everyone do something stupid.

Say, Garrus might look down the barrle of his own rifle and pull the trigger. Stupid? Yes. But he MIGHT to that. Better not give him any guns. If he shoots himself, it's your fault for trusting him with a gun.

And yes, building a reaper is effin stupid. It's non-debatable.

Dear Lord..You actually have any sensible arguments?




 
[quote]
Unlike the Alliance and Council, we've seen the structure of Cerberus first-hand: no accountability. TIM sets up a cell and turns a blind eye to it. The cell is expected to meet benchmarks or it will be shutdown. How they get the results doesn't matter. As the threat of TIM pulling the plug looms over the cell, the cell cuts corners and something catastrophic happens.[/quote]

Blacks Ops. Specters. Plausible deinability.
Your point of Alliance/Council being better or more trustowrty is null and void.


[quote]
Mistakes are okay, if you learn valuable things from them and don't make it again next time. However, Cerberus made the same mistake they did with Teltin all over again with Project Overlord. Overlord was actually worse. And I'm supposed to trust they'll safely/responsibly handle a base full of Reaper-tech? They might bring about galactic armaegoddon before the Reapers even begin to. They almost did already, on a technological scale.[/quote]

Project Rho.



[quote]
[quote]What working knowledge do we have?
Opportunity DURING the war effort? You want to act when most of your navy is destroyed, your homeworlds are burning and indoctrination is runing rampant?
By that time it will be too late. What, you expect the reapers will kindly wait for us?[/quote]

Working knowledge: (1) a strategy that worked in the past (combined fleets to take down a Reaper - Sovereign); (2) Salvaged tech from Sovereign's ruins; (3) What we learned from O4 mission.[/quote]

Worthless.
You aren't fighting a single reaper anymore, and "concetrate firepower" is hardly a nover thought.
Salvaged tech fro msovereign - is it enough? nope.
What did we learn frothe O4 mission that can help?


[quote]
Note #2 can be done again during the war, and probably should be done regardess the state of the base and the galaxy.

I'm not sure if it's worse to believe the reapers will wait kindly for us, or not actively look for alternatives during the war itself just because they might be destroying things and indoctrinating people. Guess what, we could still find plenty of useful intel in that time to help us destroy them. Again, that should be part of the plan anyway.[/quote]

One shoudl always look for opportunities, but your strategy is flawed.
What makes oyu think you will be able to find anything in time during the war? What makes you think the other reapers will let you pick around the corpses of their bretheren (assuming you even manage to destroy one)?

Insted of trying to make most use of the CB NOW, while the reapers are still far way - while you have MORE time to research, while you have controlled conditions... insted of that, you want to try make scientific breaktrough under worst possible conditions...

[quote]
What makes you think there will be no opportunity to stop them when they arrive? They took centuries for the Reapers to wipe out the Protheans entirely, and that was with the successful surpise attack through the Citadel when they stood no chance.[/quote]

Centuries to WIPE OUT, not centuries to destroy. Big difference.

You can destroy all major planets, fleet and popualtion and research centers within months - effectively dumping the race back to stone age - and then spend centuries hunting down/reapeing the last few stragglers.
That race is effectively defeated - they have no means to fight back properly anymore.
The industry is crushed. Space travel is gone.

Making any scientific breaktrough at this point is not only unlikely, but futile- you dont' have the means to fight back anymore. Of what use is a super-gun when you dont' have any shipyards anymore, and the only ship you have left is a damaged old freighter?




[quote]
A load of BS.
How the heck can Cerberus be more dangerous or worse than the reapers? By what abortion of logic can one possibly come to that conclusion? Reapers destroy all life in the galaxy. They come in the thousands.

Cerberus, even with the tech granted by that ONE base, is limited by it's size (and I would say logistics). The worth of the base is in knowledge gain and technology distributed - if cerberus onyl keep everything to itself, then the value is greatly diminished.

After all, a thousand cerberus troops equipped with reaper tech are a formidable force - but against MILLIONS of troops of other factions AND a navy?
The possibilites are NOT endless. they are in fact, quite limited.[/quote]

It's easily possible, follow along:

(1) Reapers ravage galaxy, all races/nations have become greatly weakened.
(2) Cerberus has Collector base-of-operations to recreate the things the Reapers used to terrorize the galaxy.
(3) Cerberus decides they can establish dominance over a weak galaxy with Reaper gifts.[/quote]

And what happened to the reapers in this scenario of yours?
And how is it worse than reapers?


[quote]
If you equate "as bad as Reapers" to literally "thousands of dreadnaughts that reap the galaxy" then no, they probably can't be as bad. If you see how they can still adopt Reaper methods without literally turning into a race of dreadnaughts, then it might make a little more sense. Reaper fate = you die, or live as a slave. Given the same weapons as the Reapers, I'm sure any group, even small, could bring about the same thing.[/quote]

No, no they can't.







[quote]
And you have some proof Cerberus would even want to enslave everyone? Or more importantly, be capable?

I'll give you another food for thogutht - slavery is a temporary condition. Extinction is permanent.
The bonds of slavery can be broken. The bonds of death cannot.[/quote]

Because power corrupts anyone and everyone. If they have the power establish galactic dominance (including, but not limited to, taking slaves), they will not sit on it. No one would.[/quote]

And the Council? The Alliance? Shapperd himself? Doesn't Shapprd have power?


[quote]
Bonds of slavery can be broken .... except when living as slaves to the Reapers. Our society forms along the paths they desire. We live free, for some time. When the time comes, they estinguish us all as they desire. That is little more than slavery, we are just ignorant of our masters. Up to now, those bonds have not been broken yet.

You can try to defeat it entirely, or try to defeat it by creating a new problem.[/quote]

A lesser problem is a better alternative than nothing changing (cycle continuing).




[quote][quote]
With what? Cerberus doesn't have a navy.
It doesn't have the numbers to cover or control such a huge area of space.
It's like saying blackwater could conquer the whole earth if we give them advanced weapons.[/quote]

And in their small size, they threatened to bring about technological apocalypse courtesy Overlord. And that was an an accident.[/quote]

Orverlord, schmoverlord. That was taken care of.
And the "technological apocalypse" is way overblown. Your cumputer dying is hardly the end of the world. You build a new one.



[quote][quote]
And all of those were easily dealt with.
Not really big problems. A drop in the ocean compared to the reapres.
The races of the galaxy could easily wipe out Cerberus at any time - but they never put much effort into it.[/quote]

Wrong, those were luckily dealt with. I'd say being set back to the stone-ages in technology is a huge problem anyway. Jack was dealt with, after many lives were lost over her illegal activity. 1 is too many.[/quote]

Not really big problems. A drop in the ocean compared to the reapres.




[quote][quote]
It is metagaming, because Shepaprd doesn't know it's a game.[/quote]

No, it's making the point that no scenario is too extreme/unlikely to happen but more likely, and all must be considered. And again, that it is a game doesn't change my decision either.[/quote]

no scenario is too extreme/unlikely to happen but more likely IN A GAME.

You are making no point.

[marstor05]

Tim didnt want to defeat the reapers, he wanted to save humanity by us becoming like them. By destroying the base we've done TIM a favor by putting him in a position the gain favor with the reapers.

What happened to the Protheans would happen to Humanity if TIM had his way.

[InvincibleHero]

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...

Personally the only technologies my Shepard would give to Cerberus would be the ones which can not harm people at all, it's a matter of thrust.

Who can do more damage with the technology Cerberus with 200 people or the Alliance. That's right do you trust the Alliance becasue they got it all a fully functional AI the thanix the shields and the Normandy II. Are you so naive to think they won't use it to boltser their galactic position and not share with everyone else?

[Lotion Soronarr]

marstor05 wrote...
Tim didnt want to defeat the reapers, he wanted to save humanity by us becoming like them. By destroying the base we've done TIM a favor by putting him in a position the gain favor with the reapers.

What happened to the Protheans would happen to Humanity if TIM had his way.

Proof of this redicolous theory?

The reapers already want to make us like them. If that was TIM's goal then why did he spend 20 years fighting them?

And prothens were turned into mindelss slaves by the Reapers. They are NOT like the reapers in any way. Yet you just claimed TIM wants for humantiy to become like reapers? Which are nothing like the protheans...

So TIM wants for humantiy to be like protheans AN reapers, even tough they are both mutually exclusive?

WUT?

What is this..I dont' even...

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 09 décembre 2011 - 12:33 .

[marstor05]

err... yeah

Some Protheans went into constructing a Reaper didn't they????

The rest were used as slaves.

oh and of course the similarity between what Cerberus did to Dead Shepard and glimpses of what the Reapers did to the Protheans.

Modifié par marstor05, 09 décembre 2011 - 12:27 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

I don't think there is a prothean reaper.....

And huh? What similarities? Sheppard was brought back with his mind fully intact. He ain't no slave.
If TIM wantedto enslave Sheppard, he could have done it easily by messing with his head.

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...
Personally the only technologies my Shepard would give to Cerberus would be the ones which can not harm people at all, it's a matter of thrust.

And if you cannot overcome your trust issues in the face of total anihilation...you don't really deserve to survive.
Alliances are formed by common goals - not trust.
If Space Marines can ally themslves with xenos, then Cerberus really isn't an issue.

I'm sure ME3 will proves I'm right and you're wrong, as you'll discover the galaxy has far more ressources than Cerberus and actually don't need Cerberus, making it in the end an organisation which results in needless suffering.

[Lotion Soronarr]

No, ME3 can't prove you right or wrong. Because this issue of a sensible/logical decision is not decided with hindsight.

But even if it could, if you read the leaks, you'd find out Cerberus found a way to stop the reapers.

Eiother way, if you want to gamble everything and everyone on the off chance the galaxy MAYBE has enough strength to fight off the reapers without Cerberus (when it has little chances even with them), at least do it without climing a moral high ground - since your falire would result in countless suffering.

[Urazz]

Soccer FeverMan wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Too bad. For those who give the base to TIM, anyway.

Me? I don't feel comfortable giving a glorified blender to the people that would gladly kidnap the glorified fruits/vegetables/whatever people put in blenders.

Oh me personally i rather put my idiotic feelings of moral superiority and not grasp at non existent hope and actually have a concrete resource that could help me defeat my enemy.

but thats just me....just saying 

Which if that was the case then you would give it to the council/alliance if the option was available.  Giving it to Cerberus is just asking for trouble.  I didn't need to have hindsight to see that.

Modifié par Urazz, 09 décembre 2011 - 01:38 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Urazz wrote...

Soccer FeverMan wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Too bad. For those who give the base to TIM, anyway.

Me? I don't feel comfortable giving a glorified blender to the people that would gladly kidnap the glorified fruits/vegetables/whatever people put in blenders.

Oh me personally i rather put my idiotic feelings of moral superiority and not grasp at non existent hope and actually have a concrete resource that could help me defeat my enemy.

but thats just me....just saying 

Which if that was the case then you would give it to the council/alliance if the option was available.  Giving it to Cerberus is just asking for trouble.  I didn't need to have hindsight to see that.

Cerbers is still part of this galactic life cycle. Cerberus is allso gonna get reaped. It doesn't mater to whom you give the base. Batarians. Council. Cerberus. Volus. Hannar. Krogan.

As long as it's one of "us".

You'd rather blow it up then give it to Cerberus, so you cna feel all morally superiror and "pure", while potential doomon all sentient life in the galaxy. Great job, "hero".

[Medhia Nox]

Good thing munitions and R&D sites are never destroyed in real wars - otherwise, how would we ever learn anything.

Snatch and grab - I have no issue with. And if I'm not mistaken - EDI did data mine the place. So - unless the Collectors keep hardcopy books lying around instead of digital information - I can see what little we would learn about Collector bathrooms/living quarters/and human slushie pods "acceptable - even if regrettable - loss".

What I don't accept is wasting resources defending a derelict spaceship in the hopes that maybe they'll come up with something useful by the end of the Reaper invasion.

If you left just Cerberus - one Reaper would just retake the stupid thing. This puts the Reaper Slushie maker back in the hands of the bad guys.  And in case ME 2 taught us nothing - Reaper Slushies will certainly put Starbucks out of business (yes, even Starbucks). If you wasted Council resources - then they're not defending home worlds.

Putting my "hope" in the Collector Base Deus Ex Machine seems to me like a waste of resources.

If I had a slave race of automatons that ran a ship designed for one thing (and saying it "could be for more" is speculation/metagaming/hoping). I wouldn't leave design plans for the magic bullet that could kill my entire armada of supreme cuttlefish.

But - as I've said before - reverse engineering is magical and instant to some people.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 09 décembre 2011 - 05:04 .

[Medhia Nox]

I'm totally gonna kick the Reapers asses with a Collector toilet.

"You're going down Harby... we discovered the secret Collector X-box 2160 with Kinect."

"NOOooo - Shepard, you fiend! I hid that there believing you would never find it... truly you have outwitted me."

"Harby - it was sitting right there... with a sign."

"Damn it all - you crafty organics."

[marstor05]

the collector base had to be destroyed cos it breached EU health & Safety Guidelines.

[111987]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

How is it irrelevant? It's a unique situation and any faction can make use of the chaos of war to get an upper hand.

Please, go ahead and dismiss anything that goes aginst your fragile theories...[/quote]

No no, you already do enough of that for the both of us I think.

It's irrelevant because I said it is a situation unlike any other for everyone in the galaxy. And then your counter-claim was that...it was a unique situation for everyone, not just Cerberus. Which is what I said. Disagreeing for the sake of it.




[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, because you dont' know where the reapers will strike. The first target they hit might as well be TIM's base.
And if Cerberus only has 150 agents and no resources that can be attacked and destroyer (like bases and stations) - then how can they be a threat?

In order for Cerberus to move their operative out of harms way, they must now where the harm will be in the first place. And no one does that. The reapers won't e-mail TIM before attacking telling him where they will strike.[/quote]

It's astounding that you think the way you do. You honestly believe TIM's base, one of the most secret locations in the galaxy, will be hit by the Reapers instead of a planet. Not to mention it's untrackable unless you already know where it is.

That kind of thinking is just...wow.

And Cerberus has multiple bases, and bases past the Omega 4 Relay. Giving them the tech could potentially make them very dangerous because by the time the Reapers attack, they could have already been using it or replicated and sent it to all of their bases.


[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The comic with reaperized Paul Grayson. TIM was ready to die to stop him.[/quote]
First of all it's a book, Mass Effect: Retribution. Secondly, your bias for Cerberus is stunningly apparent now. In that scene, TIM even admits to himself he is not ready to be a martyr yet and he was secretly glad to be safe. He was only ready to die when he realized he had no chance; he had the courage of a cornered animal.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Which you cannot prove.
And you also cannot prove other factions/races won't try to do the same.

So unless you have something else you can add to the table, your mistrust is baseless and illogical.[/quote]

Shepard cannot see into the future. Nor can you. You can't prove Cerberus would use the technology to help the other races just as i cannot prove they wouldn't. That's why this is all theorizing, and why we have to base our conclusions off of what we know about Cerberus, their past actions, and what they likely would do in a situaiton like the Reaper War.



[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sauce. Proof.[/quote]

Codex for the Turians. The Turians are the race least likely to become a part of a multi-race government where they do not rule. And yet the Codex says the even the Turians understand that conquering the other races would cost the Turians more than they could ever gain.

Once again, I can't see the future. For all we know the Hanar have been building thousands of dreadnaughts and cloning Yahg and want to take over the galaxy. But we can assume that's rather unlkely. Same with the other races wanting to take over; they understand that conquering the others would cost them more than they would ever gain.

Cerberus, with their whole "Human dominance" agenda, in my mind, would try to take advantage of this situation to achieve their primary goal.

[/quote]