1667 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
Okay, there are quite logical reasons for destroying the base. Shepard doesn't give one but it isn't a stupid decision. My head canon Shepard did so for two related reasons. Trust for Cerberus is one. Not that Cerberus would directly intentionally impede the war effort, but the extremely immoral uses they would put the technology to. Shepard may not know about Grayson, but he did know about Cerberus' other unethical programs, not to mention the unflattering success rate of those programs. There's also the point that I believe Cerberus would limit control over any useful advances to themselves, so I'm skeptical as to how much impact they would have. I know people are going to say this reason is ignoring the practical necessity of combating the Reapers, but hear me out, this is not the only reason.

In a fight for survial of all inteligent life in the galaxy, nothing - no matter how henious - that safeguards life is immoral.

Youre judgment of their sucess rate is alos flawed.

I wasn't talking about what Cerberus might use the technology for to fight the Reapers.  I was refering to what they would do with it in their experimenting on humans and all other species in their attempts to ensure human suppremecy.  Like I said, if you bothered reading, this isn't the primary issue, just an extra aside as to why people would be hesitant to hand it over.

It is not.  Every project Shepard has encountered aside from Lazarus and the Normandy SR-2, which is all Shepard has to go by, have consisted of inhumane experiments that tend to get all the researchers killed in the process (Actually, the Lazarus project falls into that catagory too) and could be considered partial success' at best.  The subjects of said experiments also tend to end up insane or highly unstable.

Every instance of studying intact Reaper technology, including the Inert Reaper and Object Rho, has been a complete disaster, resulting in indoctrination often enough.

Adn you'll be faced with indoctrination either way. There's no avoiding it. You want to try and find a coutner to it now, or try it in the middel of a galactic war, when half of your populace is indoactrinated and your citites are burning?

  Oh sure, let's let the Cerberus researchers become indoctrinated and turn the Collectoer's technology against us while we already have to deal with the Reapers.  Do you honestly not see how this could be a problem?  I'm not saying there couldn't be an advantage, but it's a gamble either way.

There's also the concern that the Reapers might be capable of interfacing with the base without the taking control the Collectors.

Then why didn't they do it before?
Aslo, how would that help them exactly? The base has no weapons (that we seen). It cannot move.
How exactly can it aid hte reaper war effort (all that's assumign the reaper war effort needs any aid)

I'm only mentioning the possibility.  For starters they could open the base to vacuum and kill all the researchers.  Shepard doesn't know the full capabilities of the base, why take that chance?  At the very least, the Reapers would have their Reaper factory back.

[Someone With Mass]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Good thing munitions and R&D sites are never destroyed in real wars - otherwise, how would we ever learn anything.

Snatch and grab - I have no issue with. And if I'm not mistaken - EDI did data mine the place. So - unless the Collectors keep hardcopy books lying around instead of digital information - I can see what little we would learn about Collector bathrooms/living quarters/and human slushie pods "acceptable - even if regrettable - loss".

What I don't accept is wasting resources defending a derelict spaceship in the hopes that maybe they'll come up with something useful by the end of the Reaper invasion.

If you left just Cerberus - one Reaper would just retake the stupid thing. This puts the Reaper Slushie maker back in the hands of the bad guys.  And in case ME 2 taught us nothing - Reaper Slushies will certainly put Starbucks out of business (yes, even Starbucks). If you wasted Council resources - then they're not defending home worlds.

Putting my "hope" in the Collector Base Deus Ex Machine seems to me like a waste of resources.

If I had a slave race of automatons that ran a ship designed for one thing (and saying it "could be for more" is speculation/metagaming/hoping). I wouldn't leave design plans for the magic bullet that could kill my entire armada of supreme cuttlefish.

But - as I've said before - reverse engineering is magical and instant to some people.

Let's not forget the possibility that a Reaper might just lock down the Omega 4 relay.

I also think that this "reverse-engineering" shtick is just cheap, since we barely know anything about the Protheans, despite their beacons and facilities that are here and there, but one base which is made out of completely new tech? Nah, give them half a year or so, and they'll come up with a weapon that can turn the tide of this galactic war.

Yeah, right...

[Labrev]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
Wow. A response with 0 insight that can't put some legitimate concerns to rest. Figures.[/quote]

"Characters I don't like will act like morons, despite not showing such traits before" is not a legitimate concen.

Next.[/quote]

Wrong, Cerberus has done plenty of moronic things. The blame for which falls on the man-in-charge, especially when the same mistakes are made twice. He has surveillance on the SSV Normandy, why does he not keep the same watchful eye on his other projects? Or perhaps he is, and they are still messing up.

By the way, T.I.M. is not a character I don't like. Like/dislike has nothing to do with this topic.


[quote][quote]No, I'm saying TIM might do something stupid. And actually no, building a Reaper would not be completely stupid. However, the problem is that I'm entrusting him tech that I don't believe he's responsible/wise enough to utilize the right way.

And if he does something stupid, it's my fault for trusting him.[/quote]

He MIGHT? And how likely would that be? And coudltn' everyone do something stupid.

Say, Garrus might look down the barrle of his own rifle and pull the trigger. Stupid? Yes. But he MIGHT to that. Better not give him any guns. If he shoots himself, it's your fault for trusting him with a gun.[/quote]

That could not be more different. I've seen enough of Garrus to know he wouldn't do something that dumb. At least as far as handling a gun is concerned. If he were to do so, I can't be blamed for something completely unexpected like that happening. The same can't be said for Cerberus handling tech. Like I said, they can't run safe research project to literally save their life (they typically all die failing at it).

If they do something evil/stupid with it, it should not be considered unexpected in the least. It might be to Kaiser and laecraft, but not to me.


[quote]And yes, building a reaper is effin stupid. It's non-debatable.[/quote]

Oh it's easily debatable: what if a Reaper being created as a weapon to be used is more valuable in the war than all the individual people sacrificed to create it?


[quote]Dear Lord..You actually have any sensible arguments?[/quote]

Better question: can you manage a civil argument on a gentlemanly level, or are you content with being a jerk-off? (Not that I really care either way, but...)


[quote]Blacks Ops. Specters. Plausible deinability.
Your point of Alliance/Council being better or more trustowrty is null and void.[/quote]

I never asserted that they are better/more trustworthy, just that we have a lot better idea about Cerberus is run to make a judgement call about the consequences of giving them the 'base.


[quote]Project Rho.[/quote]

... ? Okay. I'm not exactly sure what the Alliance's track record with studying Reaper tech is.

'Rho was damn near a success though. Had the team not succumbed to indoctrination, it would have been. They got an early lead on the Arrival and almost stopped it. If they can just learn to avoid indoctrination next time (you know, learning from their mistake, as opposed to the way Cerberus makes the same one over and over)...

Oh and look at that, a success against the Reapers, accomplished without the 'base. Seems it CAN be done.



[quote]One shoudl always look for opportunities, but your strategy is flawed.
What makes oyu think you will be able to find anything in time during the war? What makes you think the other reapers will let you pick around the corpses of their bretheren (assuming you even manage to destroy one)?[/quote]

If we can't find ANYTHING to help us over the course of the war, if we can't defeat a single Reaper again with the combined efforts of more than just the Citadel and Alliance fleets, if we can't find any salvage similar to that which was key in the very success in acquiring the CB in the first place (EDI, Thanix Cannon on Normandy SR2) ... then it was never in the cards for us to win. You need the ball to bounce in your favor at least a few times if you ever expect to win the game.

If we're that primitive, even the base will do us no good (not that the base ever guaranteed victory).

[quote][quote]What makes you think there will be no opportunity to stop them when they arrive? They took centuries for the Reapers to wipe out the Protheans entirely, and that was with the successful surpise attack through the Citadel when they stood no chance.[/quote]

Centuries to WIPE OUT, not centuries to destroy. Big difference.

You can destroy all major planets, fleet and popualtion and research centers within months - effectively dumping the race back to stone age - and then spend centuries hunting down/reapeing the last few stragglers.
That race is effectively defeated - they have no means to fight back properly anymore.
The industry is crushed. Space travel is gone.

Making any scientific breaktrough at this point is not only unlikely, but futile- you dont' have the means to fight back anymore. Of what use is a super-gun when you dont' have any shipyards anymore, and the only ship you have left is a damaged old freighter?[/quote]

Ye ole slippery-slope fallacy: x happens and then it all goes downhill. By this logic, Cerberus has to abandon ship on the studies they're doing on the CB when the Reapers arrive (I'm sure they can still travel through the O4 relay, it reads a Reaper-IFF afterall) because galactic doomsday is in full-swing and all bets are off - all scientific breakthrough is rendered futile.


[quote][quote]It's easily possible, follow along:

(1) Reapers ravage galaxy, all races/nations have become greatly weakened.
(2) Cerberus has Collector base-of-operations to recreate the things the Reapers used to terrorize the galaxy.
(3) Cerberus decides they can establish dominance over a weak galaxy with Reaper gifts.[/quote]

And what happened to the reapers in this scenario of yours?
And how is it worse than reapers?[/quote]

Dead, but replaced by a new major threat.

How can they be as bad? After the war is over, Cerberus will have the same weapons/tech from the base used to combat the Reapers while the galaxy has been weakened immensely in their aftermath.

First of all, if there's any doubt Cerberus will want to establish their dominance over the galaxy, see Invasion comic. With only limited tech from the O4-mission (I say limited because they can apparently accomplish this without the base intact), they've staged a coup on Omega - at least for now. In the end, it's not a matter of "Cerberus is evuhlz!" It's principle. No man or organization will just sit on that kind of power. That's why you have to consider long-term consequences, as the Illusive Man clearly does, "against the Reapers, and beyond." Whatever they can turn and use against the Reapers, they can turn and use against anyone else.

The Reapers have control over the paths we develop, allow life and civilizations to exist for some time, then kill them off or enslave whole races as they please. That we're ignorant of them most of the time doesn't change the fact. And they have never allowed for any civilization to grow more powerful enough to defeat them.

Should Cerberus adopt the Reapers' methods to establish their own dominance, taking over at a time when no one can stand up to them, the scenarios are no different from each other. You've recreated the same problem, other than the fact that TIM/Cerberus won't venture into dark space for millennia (which, if the Reapers are defeated this time, will have been the reason for their downfall thanks to Saren screwing up the plan). But maybe they could set up something beyond the O4-relay.


[quote][quote]Bonds of slavery can be broken .... except when living as slaves to the Reapers. Our society forms along the paths they desire. We live free, for some time. When the time comes, they estinguish us all as they desire. That is little more than slavery, we are just ignorant of our masters. Up to now, those bonds have not been broken yet.

You can try to defeat it entirely, or try to defeat it by creating a new problem.[/quote]

A lesser problem is a better alternative than nothing changing (cycle continuing).[/quote]

You'll be lucky if they are only a lesser problem. If they are as bad, worse, or even close, then you've changed nothing.

You don't think we stand a chance against the Reapers without the base. Long-term: should Cerberus go bad, do we stand a chance against them? We won't have the base, they will. You yourself believe the Reapers will ravage all our fleets and render all possible advancements, how do we stand up to them after the galaxy has been ravaged, while Cerberus has the tools to recreate the things the Collectors (and thus basically the Reapers) were doing?

At that point, you've come full-circle. You're facing the same enemy/threat, now without the base, and probably weaker than before as a galaxy.


[quote][quote]And in their small size, they threatened to bring about technological apocalypse courtesy Overlord. And that was an an accident.[/quote]

Orverlord, schmoverlord. That was taken care of.
And the "technological apocalypse" is way overblown. Your cumputer dying is hardly the end of the world. You build a new one.[/quote]

Overlord schmoverlord? You'll excuse me if I find humor in this. It seems you've echoed the Cerberus line-of-thinking most perfectly: it's all fun and games, until somebody loses a nut (and then not even that).

I just started playing that mission again the other day. It wasn't overblown/merely computers dying. The VI was trying to upload to Normandy SR2 and get off-world. Archer detailed the outcome as "every machine, computer, and weapon would be turned against us." That VI blocked out all comm-channels, took control of security mechs, geth, and even turrets around the planet to fire at the Hammerhead. Now multiply that onto a galactic scale and say "overlord schmoverlord" again.

That's why I wouldn't give the base to Cerberus even if I knew that their intentions were completely pure. I don't consider the end-game decision to even be a decision. You can pretty much count on them F it up so bad that they'll find a way to screw us all over and thus probably help the Reapers secure victory.


[quote][quote]Wrong, those were luckily dealt with. I'd say being set back to the stone-ages in technology is a huge problem anyway. Jack was dealt with, after many lives were lost over her illegal activity. 1 is too many.[/quote]

Not really big problems. A drop in the ocean compared to the reapres.[/quote]

Sure. But if they can create those kinds of problems at their small size as it is, and are given tech with the potential to wreak havoc on the same level as the Reapers.....


[quote][quote]No, it's making the point that no scenario is too extreme/unlikely to happen but more likely, and all must be considered. And again, that it is a game doesn't change my decision either.[/quote]

no scenario is too extreme/unlikely to happen but more likely IN A GAME.

You are making no point.[/quote]

While on the topic of in-game, more in-game reiterations of my very concerns:

At time of CB decision...
Jack: "... Shepard he's a user, just like the Collectors."

Post-mission (a non-retconned opinion, to be fair)...
Thane: "... I fear all we have done is make (T.I.M.) a giant."


*edit* - spacing/quoting issues.

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 09 décembre 2011 - 09:54 .

[capn233]

It's a shame that your actions in ME2, probably most specifically the last one don't set you up for different alignments in ME3... like if you kept the base and were pro-Cerberus you would be working with them to defeat the Reapers and secure human dominance for the post-war, after they bust you out of jail. Alternatively, if you had been more Council aligned you would be with the Council or Alliance to unite everyone to stop the Reapers. Oh well, can't pass judgement until I play the game.

[AlexXIV]

Well it is not about what they do, it is more about what they can do. To let people choose to play with Cerberus or the Alliance almost requires 2 games. Because you'd have different missions, different people to work with, and probably different places to fight for each side.

[Kaiser Shepard]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well it is not about what they do, it is more about what they can do. To let people choose to play with Cerberus or the Alliance almost requires 2 games. Because you'd have different missions, different people to work with, and probably different places to fight for each side.

It's not that difficult: The levels themselves can be the exact same, the missions don't have to differ that much... the only real difference would have to be your 'handler'.

It doesn't have to be The Witcher 2 in space, but something around Alpha Protocol's level would've been nice.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 09 décembre 2011 - 10:14 .

[AlexXIV]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well it is not about what they do, it is more about what they can do. To let people choose to play with Cerberus or the Alliance almost requires 2 games. Because you'd have different missions, different people to work with, and probably different places to fight for each side.

It's not that difficult: The levels themselves can be the exact same, the missions don't have to differ that much... the only real difference would have to be your 'handler'.

It doesn't have to be The Witcher 2 in space, but some around Alpha Protocol's level would've been nice.

Alpha protocol is one of the few RPGs I never played. But wouldn't people complain about 'reused areas' and fake options if you get almost the same for both sides?

Modifié par AlexXIV, 09 décembre 2011 - 10:44 .

[Labrev]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well it is not about what they do, it is more about what they can do. To let people choose to play with Cerberus or the Alliance almost requires 2 games. Because you'd have different missions, different people to work with, and probably different places to fight for each side.

Armchair Game-Developer: assume everything can be easily implemented into game, all combinations of decisions must result in 932598948759843578943 distinct variables. Equal treatment? Proposterous!

[Omega4RelayResident]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

capn233 wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...
The Alliance being a better choice argument is simple. The Alliance has checks and balances to ensure projects wont go "Rogue" or be misused by their supervisors.

Did they implement these checks and balances after Cerberus went rogue?

Nah, they did that after "The Project" did so in Arrival.

Whoah whoah wait a minute Kaiser..... who intentionally misused the Project in the Arrival DLC.... I dont think INDOCTINATION counts as misuse or greed. Brainwashing yes.

If anything stricter checks and balances could have been placed in to the system after the Revelation book.

[Omega4RelayResident]

@Lotion...

The Boromir refrence was directed at you because YOU argue for keeping the CB just like he argued for using the ring.

Boromir wanted to use it for GOOD... but even with his intentions being pure the ring would have corrupted those intentions. You see it the same way... IF in fact there would be any data usefull on the CB without fear of it being misused or actually too dangerous to let exist then YES I would agree with you. The risk however is way too dangerous and uncertain.

The fact of the matter is that the CB was created by the Reapers as a Reaper "baby hospital" but can be said more accurately to be a manufacturing point. The Collectors were left there to maintain it durring the Reapers absence.

(SPECULATION) What if it still exists and thats the first place the Reapers go? They take it over first thing and do something crazy with it... maybe it has a long range Death Star like weapon built into it which is capable of destroying planets at long range. Too risky to re-purpose and even with the best AI calculations it would not be accurate enough to be used against the Reapers.

I would rather have ONE LESS thing to worry about than ONE MORE.

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 09 décembre 2011 - 10:56 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
"Characters I don't like will act like morons, despite not showing such traits before" is not a legitimate concen.

Next.[/quote]

Wrong, Cerberus has done plenty of moronic things. The blame for which falls on the man-in-charge, especially when the same mistakes are made twice. He has surveillance on the SSV Normandy, why does he not keep the same watchful eye on his other projects? Or perhaps he is, and they are still messing up.
[/quote]

Oh? What moronic things?
All the projects he does make perfect sense. Efficency, speed, bigget bang for hte buck - that's what Cerberus wants. And building a human reaper is neither of those things.



[quote][quote]
He MIGHT? And how likely would that be? And coudltn' everyone do something stupid.

Say, Garrus might look down the barrle of his own rifle and pull the trigger. Stupid? Yes. But he MIGHT to that. Better not give him any guns. If he shoots himself, it's your fault for trusting him with a gun.[/quote]

That could not be more different. I've seen enough of Garrus to know he wouldn't do something that dumb. At least as far as handling a gun is concerned. If he were to do so, I can't be blamed for something completely unexpected like that happening. The same can't be said for Cerberus handling tech. Like I said, they can't run safe research project to literally save their life (they typically all die failing at it).

If they do something evil/stupid with it, it should not be considered unexpected in the least. It might be to Kaiser and laecraft, but not to me.[/quote]

It's exactly the same. And I say Garrus/Tali/Mirana/X would do something like that. I dont' need proof, since apparenlty you don't either.
Cerberus making a human reaper IS both dumb and unexpected.
Really, that whole "Cerberus could do a research project" things is bollocks.

Their research reaches it's goal. Ergo, it's a sucess. Period.


[quote]
[quote]And yes, building a reaper is effin stupid. It's non-debatable.[/quote]Oh it's easily debatable: what if a Reaper being created as a weapon to be used is more valuable in the war than all the individual people sacrificed to create it?[/quote]

It is stupid and non-debatable.
The time invested , resources and complexity of such a reaper, and the danger inherent are far, far above just making a ship with all that tech.
Far less cost, less points where things could get wrong, less of a hassle, more reliable, etc, etc...
And all the people you didn't reap remain available as a resurce to fight the reapers to boot.

What's next? You want to argue that spending billions on creating a 50000mm cannon is far better than building missiles?



[quote]
[quote]Blacks Ops. Specters. Plausible deinability.
Your point of Alliance/Council being better or more trustowrty is null and void.[/quote]

I never asserted that they are better/more trustworthy, just that we have a lot better idea about Cerberus is run to make a judgement call about the consequences of giving them the 'base.[/quoteg

No we don't.



[quote]
... ? Okay. I'm not exactly sure what the Alliance's track record with studying Reaper tech is.

'Rho was damn near a success though. Had the team not succumbed to indoctrination, it would have been. They got an early lead on the Arrival and almost stopped it. If they can just learn to avoid indoctrination next time (you know, learning from their mistake, as opposed to the way Cerberus makes the same one over and over)...

Oh and look at that, a success against the Reapers, accomplished without the 'base. Seems it CAN be done.[/quote]

Really? What sucess. You just said it failed.
They didn't stop the Arrival - Sheapprd did. they failed.

And what sucess are we talking about here? Delaying them. Oh, jolly good. now tell me how you actually plan to FIGHT them? what did Project Rho yield in that regard?

Also, learning from the mistakes like is funny, whne no one knows how to fight indoctrination. We only see one instance on Cerberus indoctrinated (derelict reaper). So where is this "continued mistake"?



[quote]
[quote]One shoudl always look for opportunities, but your strategy is flawed.
What makes oyu think you will be able to find anything in time during the war? What makes you think the other reapers will let you pick around the corpses of their bretheren (assuming you even manage to destroy one)?[/quote]

If we can't find ANYTHING to help us over the course of the war, if we can't defeat a single Reaper again with the combined efforts of more than just the Citadel and Alliance fleets, if we can't find any salvage similar to that which was key in the very success in acquiring the CB in the first place (EDI, Thanix Cannon on Normandy SR2) ... then it was never in the cards for us to win. You need the ball to bounce in your favor at least a few times if you ever expect to win the game.

If we're that primitive, even the base will do us no good (not that the base ever guaranteed victory).[/quote]

Missing the point completely (wow..how unexcpected).

The base gives us the opportunity to study INTACT reaper tech under a controlled enviroment BEFORE the reapers arrive.
Yet you'd rather let this "ball that bounced" go unused and hope that unother will bounce in our favor under far worse conditions, hoping we cna get something in time. Bravo....




[quote][quote]
Centuries to WIPE OUT, not centuries to destroy. Big difference.

You can destroy all major planets, fleet and popualtion and research centers within months - effectively dumping the race back to stone age - and then spend centuries hunting down/reapeing the last few stragglers.
That race is effectively defeated - they have no means to fight back properly anymore.
The industry is crushed. Space travel is gone.

Making any scientific breaktrough at this point is not only unlikely, but futile- you dont' have the means to fight back anymore. Of what use is a super-gun when you dont' have any shipyards anymore, and the only ship you have left is a damaged old freighter?[/quote]

Ye ole slippery-slope fallacy: x happens and then it all goes downhill. By this logic, Cerberus has to abandon ship on the studies they're doing on the CB when the Reapers arrive (I'm sure they can still travel through the O4 relay, it reads a Reaper-IFF afterall) because galactic doomsday is in full-swing and all bets are off - all scientific breakthrough is rendered futile.


No fallacy. Without proper resources and means to fight, knowledge is useless.
If you don't have the tools to build a gun, and you can't build those tools, then the knowledge of how to build a gun is useless. All the firepower nad knowledge in this world is useless if you cna't bring it to bear.

And reducing a planet to stone-age is easy. It can be done within hours - minutes even.
Agian, how do you fight the reapers when you have no shipyards? They are giant spaceships.

You have some strnage fantasy that our labalatories, factories, shipyards, population centers - everythnig that is needed to back-up any military effort and proper research and production - is going to be untouched. The longer the ear goes on, the less of it will we have left.
And you want research to begin late.

Food for thought:
www.youtube.com/watch.



[quote]
[quote][quote]It's easily possible, follow along:

(1) Reapers ravage galaxy, all races/nations have become greatly weakened.
(2) Cerberus has Collector base-of-operations to recreate the things the Reapers used to terrorize the galaxy.
(3) Cerberus decides they can establish dominance over a weak galaxy with Reaper gifts.[/quote]

And what happened to the reapers in this scenario of yours?
And how is it worse than reapers?[/quote]

Dead, but replaced by a new major threat.

How can they be as bad? After the war is over, Cerberus will have the same weapons/tech from the base used to combat the Reapers while the galaxy has been weakened immensely in their aftermath.[/quote]


Cerberus is not major threat. Never will be. Again, they don't have the numbers or the resources.

And you again ignore the repaer tech left after the war, so the technologial edge Cerberus might have will be short-lived. And even with that edge, theycna't prevail.
Also, why wouldn't another race take advantage of the weakness? Anything you say about Cerberus can be applieed to any other faction. If Cerberus is dangerous, then hte Citadel caouncil is several orders of maginutude mor dangerous.


[quote]
First of all, if there's any doubt Cerberus will want to establish their dominance over the galaxy, see Invasion comic.

With only limited tech from the O4-mission (I say limited because they can apparently accomplish this without the base intact), they've staged a coup on Omega - at least for now. In the end, it's not a matter of "Cerberus is evuhlz!" It's principle. No man or organization will just sit on that kind of power. That's why you have to consider long-term consequences, as the Illusive Man clearly does, "against the Reapers, and beyond." Whatever they can turn and use against the Reapers, they can turn and use against anyone else.[/quote]

Cerberus takes over a single station...And that is proof of the mwanting to take over TEH UNIVERSE!!!!???

Also, what is the "beyond"? How do you know other challenges won't await humanity? The Universe is clearly a very dangerous place. Yet somehow TIM is evil for wanting to make sure humanity survives and thrives..


[quote]
Should Cerberus adopt the Reapers' methods to establish their own dominance, taking over at a time when no one can stand up to them, the scenarios are no different from each other. You've recreated the same problem, other than the fact that TIM/Cerberus won't venture into dark space for millennia (which, if the Reapers are defeated this time, will have been the reason for their downfall thanks to Saren screwing up the plan). But maybe they could set up something beyond the O4-relay.[/quoteg

LOl...no.




[quote]
A lesser problem is a better alternative than nothing changing (cycle continuing).[/quote]

You'll be lucky if they are only a lesser problem. If they are as bad, worse, or even close, then you've changed nothing.[/quote]

They can't be. That is pure fantasy wihout a shread of logic to back it up.

And who's to say the Batarians, Turians or someone else won't be "just as bad"?


[quote]
You don't think we stand a chance against the Reapers without the base. Long-term: should Cerberus go bad, do we stand a chance against them? We won't have the base, they will.[/quote]

Yes. Cerberus personel numbers in the thousands tops.
The rest of the races number in BILLIONS. They hold al lthe economy. All the military power. Your theory is absurd.



[quote]
You yourself believe the Reapers will ravage all our fleets and render all possible advancements, how do we stand up to them after the galaxy has been ravaged, while Cerberus has the tools to recreate the things the Collectors (and thus basically the Reapers) were doing?[/quote]

You're not listening (or not thiking).
If an advancement comes too late - we will not have the resources or facilitites to make proper use of it. Taht super-gun has to be built, distributed to your ship and installed. With the most of the economy, factories and shipyards gone, and the space dominated by reapers, how do plan to pull that off?
That doesn't mean we won't have ANY facilities left. Cerberus has one base...ONE..BASE.

Logistics. Logistics. Logistics. It's the crux and heart of any military effort.


[quote]
At that point, you've come full-circle. You're facing the same enemy/threat, now without the base, and probably weaker than before as a galaxy.[/quote]

No.



[quote]
I just started playing that mission again the other day. It wasn't overblown/merely computers dying. The VI was trying to upload to Normandy SR2 and get off-world. Archer detailed the outcome as "every machine, computer, and weapon would be turned against us." That VI blocked out all comm-channels, took control of security mechs, geth, and even turrets around the planet to fire at the Hammerhead. Now multiply that onto a galactic scale and say "overlord schmoverlord" again.[/quote]

I will. the writers are morons really. They never heard of firewalls and closed systems apparently. Viruses that can take over everything are rubbish.

Not saying the Overlord wouldn't be a big disaster..But it's still minor compared to the reapers. Some mechs and automated turrets turring against you is pittance.



[quote][quote]
no scenario is too extreme/unlikely to happen but more likely IN A GAME.

You are making no point.[/quote]

While on the topic of in-game, more in-game reiterations of my very concerns:

At time of CB decision...
Jack: "... Shepard he's a user, just like the Collectors."

Post-mission (a non-retconned opinion, to be fair)...
Thane: "... I fear all we have done is make (T.I.M.) a giant."
[/quote]

Jack is hardly objective, writing sucks there and you are still making no point. The oppinions of some of the companions are not relaly relevant.

[HiroVoid]

Cut down on the quotes.

[Someone With Mass]

If the Reapers takes over the base in ME3, they'll have another processing plant. One which is pretty difficult to gain access to.

By the way, Garrus shows no indications of doing something as stupid as putting his head against a barrel, but there are almost no limits to what TIM will do to reach his goal, while Garrus can clearly see that some things are wrong to do.

That's the difference between the two.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 09 décembre 2011 - 11:04 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Lord Aesir wrote...
Youre judgment of their sucess rate is alos flawed.[/quote]

It is not.  Every project Shepard has encountered aside from Lazarus and the Normandy SR-2, which is all Shepard has to go by, have consisted of inhumane experiments that tend to get all the researchers killed in the process (Actually, the Lazarus project falls into that catagory too) and could be considered partial success' at best.  The subjects of said experiments also tend to end up insane or highly unstable.[/quote]

Nope. I say again - you judgment is flawed.




[quote][quote]
And you'll be faced with indoctrination either way. There's no avoiding it. You want to try and find a coutner to it now, or try it in the middel of a galactic war, when half of your populace is indoactrinated and your citites are burning?[/quote]  Oh sure, let's let the Cerberus researchers become indoctrinated and turn the Collectoer's technology against us while we already have to deal with the Reapers.  Do you honestly not see how this could be a problem?  I'm not saying there couldn't be an advantage, but it's a gamble either way.[/quote]

And you'll be faced wiht indoctrinatio EITHER WAY.
You will have to deal with the reapers. That is unavoidable. You can try to do something about it NOW, or later, when the reapers are already attacking and reaping - and indoctrination will be a FAR bigger problem then.

It's a gamble one has to be a moron to NOT take.





[quote][quote]
Then why didn't they do it before?
Aslo, how would that help them exactly? The base has no weapons (that we seen). It cannot move.
How exactly can it aid hte reaper war effort (all that's assumign the reaper war effort needs any aid)
[/quote]I'm only mentioning the possibility.  For starters they could open the base to vacuum and kill all the researchers.  Shepard doesn't know the full capabilities of the base, why take that chance?  At the very least, the Reapers would have their Reaper factory back.
[/quote]

Can they open it to vacuum completley? Don't people have sealed suits and armors?
Also, of what use  would a repaer factory be to them once they arrive?

First of all, it would take quite some time to build a new reaper - all credible resistance could very well be dcrushed long before it's complete - and secondly, the'll have millions of indoctrinated slaves. They don't neeed the base.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

If the Reapers takes over the base in ME3, they'll have another processing plant. One which is pretty difficult to gain access to.

By the way, Garrus shows no indications of doing something as stupid as putting his head against a barrel, but there are almost no limits to what TIM will do to reach his goal, while Garrus can clearly see that some things are wrong to do.

That's the difference between the two.

No.
There are clear limits to what TIM would do too...Of course, you don't wnat to acknowledge them.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'm totally gonna kick the Reapers asses with a Collector toilet.

"You're going down Harby... we discovered the secret Collector X-box 2160 with Kinect."

"NOOooo - Shepard, you fiend! I hid that there believing you would never find it... truly you have outwitted me."

"Harby - it was sitting right there... with a sign."

"Damn it all - you crafty organics."

What do you think the collector ship, the reaper and it's part and collector weaposn were built wiht? Air?


Yeah, sure, let's destroy the shipyard/tank factory.. I'm sure there's NOTHING we cna learn from the machinery and materials and actual exmaples of pieces....:whistle:


Also, since when does EDI datamining equal "magicly taking out every last piece of usefull info from the base".
I works as a DBA...datamaning don't work like that son.

[Lotion Soronarr]

111987 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, because you dont' know where the reapers will strike. The first target they hit might as well be TIM's base.
And if Cerberus only has 150 agents and no resources that can be attacked and destroyer (like bases and stations) - then how can they be a threat?

In order for Cerberus to move their operative out of harms way, they must now where the harm will be in the first place. And no one does that. The reapers won't e-mail TIM before attacking telling him where they will strike.

It's astounding that you think the way you do. You honestly believe TIM's base, one of the most secret locations in the galaxy, will be hit by the Reapers instead of a planet. Not to mention it's untrackable unless you already know where it is.

That kind of thinking is just...wow.

Bases are not untrackable. They are very visible, very easy, very tempting targets.
You can bet your ass the reaper will scour any system clean of any installations.

And Cerberus has multiple bases, and bases past the Omega 4 Relay. Giving them the tech could potentially make them very dangerous because by the time the Reapers attack, they could have already been using it or replicated and sent it to all of their bases.

The same base reapers know the location of? Then Cerberus is smart for distributing it, in case the base is destroyed/taken by the reapers.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The comic with reaperized Paul Grayson. TIM was ready to die to stop him.

First of all it's a book, Mass Effect: Retribution. Secondly, your bias for Cerberus is stunningly apparent now. In that scene, TIM even admits to himself he is not ready to be a martyr yet and he was secretly glad to be safe.

NO S*** SHERLOCK!
He was glad to be alive? How henius! How unhuman! Truly TIM is worse than Hitler!!

Who the f** wants to die and by a martyr? No one does. You just do it because you feel you have to.

Shepard cannot see into the future. Nor can you. You can't prove Cerberus would use the technology to help the other races just as i cannot prove they wouldn't. That's why this is all theorizing, and why we have to base our conclusions off of what we know about Cerberus, their past actions, and what they likely would do in a situaiton like the Reaper War.

The same reaper war that would destroy them?

You are making a lot of huge leaps and stretching crediulity to justify your Cerberus hate.
To conclude that it is likely they will sabotag their own survival, and hte survival of humanity, is folly.

And your own argument doesnt' bode well for other races. You cannot prove the Council races won't destroy humanity. therefore I am completley justified (by your own logic) in wanting to wipte them out.

Once again, I can't see the future. For all we know the Hanar have been building thousands of dreadnaughts and cloning Yahg and want to take over the galaxy. But we can assume that's rather unlkely. Same with the other races wanting to take over; they understand that conquering the others would cost them more than they would ever gain.

Cerberus, with their whole "Human dominance" agenda, in my mind, would try to take advantage of this situation to achieve their primary goal.

No. We can assume it's rather unlikely.
It's no more likely that any of the above exmaples. Not even bit.

Yet you'll never admit that. Your bias blinds you.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

It's just a game, we should really all just relax.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
No.
There are clear limits to what TIM would do too...Of course, you don't wnat to acknowledge them.

Sure, but he's shown that he's clearly fine with sacrificing thousands of people just to get to his goal.

On Horizon, for example. They said about half the colony was taken by the Collectors. That's about 325 000 colonists. TIM showed absolutely no remorse about letting those people get captured.

Garrus, on the other hand, had a no civilian casualties policy while hunting on Omega.

That alone shows that both of them have different tolerances when it comes to sacrifices.

[DiebytheSword]

Lotion, you vastly understate the importance of toilets that can withstand the pressures of all the crap that comes with living in the galactic core.

In all seriousness, as a person who works in QC/QA in constant support of design engineers, reverse engineering is not as easy as you make it sound either.

Finding out what material to use is one thing, but discovering the advanced sciences behind making that material is another. For instance, someone could capture my factory and have a very, very long road ahead of them figuring out just how to make our wire's specific chemical composition (assuming the enemy has pre-industrialization knowledge of metallugry, so we can look at apples to apples comparison). Sure they might be able to pull a tiny advancement out, but the brushes they would manufacture would be horrible performance wise compared to the ones made by the factory's current staff. The net gain would be infantesimal, but the real threat that big bad Mr. 1800's industrialist will use the factory wrong, child labor etc, would still be there.

You can look at shapes and processes forever, and have a very hard time seeing what they did to achieve that specific product.

Assumptions are made concerning how fast we could capture their machining, chemical engineering, electrical engineering and mass effect science . . . not just how effective a datamine would be.

Modifié par DiebytheSword, 09 décembre 2011 - 11:38 .

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Why would they bother? If they do capture it, so what? It doesn't help them win the war. However in the mean time it could help us.

No, but it'd keep the base away from us.

That's what the Reapers are doing. They'll cut off every single supply line, destroy or take over all facilities and make sure that we don't have a way of traveling freely.

And as others have said, "reverse-engineering" and data-mining will take a lot of time with a base of that size. It's not something you'll be able to master in a matter of months.

[DiebytheSword]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
Why would they bother? If they do capture it, so what? It doesn't help them win the war. However in the mean time it could help us.

No, but it'd keep the base away from us.

That's what the Reapers are doing. They'll cut off every single supply line, destroy or take over all facilities and make sure that we don't have a way of traveling freely.

And as others have said, "reverse-engineering" and data-mining will take a lot of time with a base of that size. It's not something you'll be able to master in a matter of months.

A single product, which I will not name, took a decade and a half for one of our overseas competitors to reverse engineer completely.  They had an imitation out inside of 10 (patents stopped them from selling it earlier), but they took years more to figure out our process.  They would purchase our product, cut it open, analyse it from every angle, and their brush still  performs worse than ours to this day.  Just one example, and nothing so complex as a weapon.

[Omega4RelayResident]

God I think Lotion suffers from a serious case of Illusory Superiority en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority. I dont mean it as an insult I mean it as the truth. He thinks hes smarter than the rest of us and yet he doesnt realize he is average just like the rest of us.

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 09 décembre 2011 - 11:53 .