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[Omega4RelayResident]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

A REAPER MANUFACTURING LOCATION is one hell of a resource.

Not for the Reapers it isn't, not during the Reaper war. It is an asset mostly useful to them after the war. It actually presents a weakness because while it can produce a Reaper it also needs to be defended by many more. One of the Reapers strengths is that they don't need to defend anything but the Collector base would break that trend.

So them capturing it actually works a bit in our favor. In any case, even if they are about to capture it we can still blow it up.

Yeah because it would take the entire Reaper fleet to take back their CB. BioWare has already announced that you fight individual Reapers on other planets. Its just that the mass extinction cycle BEGINS with Earth... so only about 90% of their forces are at Earth.... the other 10% is looking for you or ways to disable any resistance.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...


Not for the Reapers it isn't, not during the Reaper war. It is an asset mostly useful to them after the war. It actually presents a weakness because while it can produce a Reaper it also needs to be defended by many more. One of the Reapers strengths is that they don't need to defend anything but the Collector base would break that trend.

So them capturing it actually works a bit in our favor. In any case, even if they are about to capture it we can still blow it up.

Ha. So that's what you think?

Here's an interesting question. If their cycle goes on for centuries, do you think the organics they've captured to turn into milkshakes will be in a good state at that point? I think they have small and mobile processing ships they can use to make the material they need on the spot instead. Putting their victims in stasis would require way too much energy too.

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

What have you got?

I have nothing. Because I don't trust Cerberus. That means giving them the base may help them getting ressources/tech, but not necessarily me. Let's not discuss why I distrust them and if it is justified or logical.

My plan is also to gather as much information as possible about Reapers, that's always been the plan. Just that the base is not an option for me. I said in another discussion that I would give it to the council/alliance even though I still think it would be a bad idea, simply because ... it's an evil thing ... maybe that's not a rational line of thought, but it doesn't matter because I have no option to give it to the Alliance anyway. My option is to give it to Cerberus or blow it up.

So the option to give it to Cerberus has actually two downsides for me. For once I would think it too dangerous even giving it in well intentioned hands, as the council/alliance for studes. And secondly I have to give it to TIM, who is everything just not my buddy. As my Shep said to Tali about Cerberus: 'I totally expect them to betray me at some point.'

So I agree with you that learning more about the Reapers is generally important for the comming war. Hell it is the only way to win. But there must be other ways. As you said yourself we have found reaper tech in the past, without handing a supposed terrorist group the potential most powerful tool in the galaxy. The council or alliance may even be working something out while we are stuck with cerberus. I would at least like to go back to the alliance command to make new plans.
 
But just making this decission right there after having been manipulated by TIM at least twice before and again him coming up with a 'we have no choice' opition just one second before I was blowing up the base. Honestly he could have said before that he wants to keep the base if possible. Like he could have said before that the collector ship was a trap. Like he could have told us that he spread information about Shep to intrigue the alliance. He is simply a dishonest person. And he always tries the 'we have/had no choice' line, but frankly Shepard would have more of a choice if TIM wasn't hiding information all the time.

So maybe I have got nothing, and the base would be something at first glance. But considering all and everything I have hope if I return to the alliance and I have a bad feeling if I trust in cerberus. There are simply too many 'what if's. So even if I have nothing, it is probably better than having nothing plus a problem called Cerberus with a reaper factory.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I do not claim that any such information is there, only that it could be. The fact is I don't know and I want to find out. I can't find out if the base is blown up.

Stop mischaracterizing my arguments.

So if you ONLY CLAIM the CB would have something usefull and you dont know that it would for a fact wouldnt you be better off not giving into assumptions that could but not necessarily lead us faster down a path of destruction?

Ever hear the turn of phrase, "Better safe than sorry?"

[rapscallioness]

No, it is not logical to give the base to Cerberus. In game, Shepard knows that Cerberus has a very poor track record. You don't give an organization, with this kind of history, even more dangerous and powerful tech.

It's imbecilic to say the least. If Cerberus had proved to be any damn good at what they do, I might have thought about it. But they aren't. For whatever reason they suck at being high grade terrorists.

You no nothing about the outcome of keeping the tech . All you know is the track record of Cerberus. You have two choices: destroy the base, or give it to Cerberus--who is bewilderingly incompetent. The only logical choice is to destroy the base.

It is truly sad Cerberus is not better at what they do.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Saphra Deden wrote...

It could. The base is in a tricky place to attack and once taken (assuming it isn't just blown up) the Reaprs still need to defend it.

How is it tricky for them to get to?!?!?!?!?! WTF?!?!?!?! They built it there in the first place and ploped the Collectors there. HELL THEY BUILT THE OMEGA 4 RELAY.

Do you build a door to a place you have never seen or been to before? or do you build a door to a space that you have been to and knows exists. Your argument makes the Reapers seem like incompetant creatures that dont know how to work their OWN TECHNOLOGY. Now do you get how flimsy your argument is?!?!?!?

[Dave of Canada]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Ever hear the turn of phrase, "Better safe than sorry?"

Applies if you destroy it too.

"God, I wish I kept that base! Those Reapers sure are mulching my face! I wish we could've studied it, possibly finding new technology for our use and maybe their weakness!"

[Omega4RelayResident]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Faster down a path of destruction? On what basis do you come up with that? In the past studying Reaper tech has saved our lives. It could do so again.

Tell that to Saren, Benezia, the Cerberus team on the Derelict Reaper, or all of the Alliance forces in the Viper Nebula.

Oh wait they got INDOCTRINATED studying reaper tech.

[Dave of Canada]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Tell that to Saren, Benezia, the Cerberus team on the Derelict Reaper, or all of the Alliance forces in the Viper Nebula.

Oh wait they got INDOCTRINATED studying reaper tech.

And if nobody studied reaper tech because they were being ignorant of it's potential, the galaxy would've been harvested already. The Protheans studied the Relays, they learned how to create one of their own and guess what... it saved the galaxy.

Oh hey, look there! EDI and the Thannix Cannon!

Thank heavens Reaper tech is evil!

[Ryzaki]

...good grief. Both decisions are viable and justified. Why have the needless d*** measuring contest?

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I have nothing.

Then I win. Debate finished. It was fun!

Better luck next time.

I go through the effort to write so much just to get this ..

Modifié par AlexXIV, 10 décembre 2011 - 02:02 .

[Omega4RelayResident]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

How is it tricky for them to get to?!?!?!?!?! WTF?!?!?!?! They built it there in the first place and ploped the Collectors there. HELL THEY BUILT THE OMEGA 4 RELAY.

EDIT: [Saphra Deden removes an important point that debunks the response that was posted to my point]

Yes, but the base is located in a very hostile region of space. To get their quickly and safely they need to use the relay. We can make that very hard for them.

We have no idea how or when they built the relay. Even if they can bypass the relay we can still make taking the base hard for them and/or blow the base up.

I like how you ignored the second part of my response.... and it happens to be the part that debunks your current response.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...
So what does this have to do with the base? They'd need millions of humans to make even one Reaper (or at least one of the bigger ones). Do you really think they'll go to the trouble of capturing the base just to get one extra Reaper? If they lose any Reapers in the process they'll have gained nothing.

We can use that to our advantage. If the base is something that they want then we make it as hard as possible for them to get and if they are about to capture it we blow it up. That's a victory for us, it is a weakness in their strategy that we can exploit.

We're still talking about the same machine race that invented the very technology we're using and managed to build a base inside the galactic core, which is surrounded by black holes, exploding suns and debris from ancient warships, which they created by using the mass relay as a trap, right?

They can send one captial Reaper along with a few squadrons of the minor ones to take that thing back. If they lose that small fleet, too bad.

Oh, and if we can rebuild the technology, then so can they. They can probably upgrade the base to be much more efficient to carry the new need of processing.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 10 décembre 2011 - 02:02 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I do not claim that any such information is there, only that it could be. The fact is I don't know and I want to find out. I can't find out if the base is blown up.

Stop mischaracterizing my arguments.

So if you ONLY CLAIM the CB would have something usefull and you dont know that it would for a fact wouldnt you be better off not giving into assumptions that could but not necessarily lead us faster down a path of destruction?

But we know the Collector Base has technology that will be useful to us. Particle weapons technology more advanced than our own, Reaper bio-weapons that will be used against us, Reaper husk-research, cybernetic and biotic amplification implants, Occuli-production and maintanence, cloning centers, quantum-entanglement devices.

There's no question about if the Collectors have technology more advanced than us. That's a known fact. Studying it will, even if we can't reproduce for our own goals, help us better defend against when the Reapers arrive packing all that tech and then some.

Ever hear the turn of phrase, "Better safe than sorry?"

It's a phrase that really only applies when there's substantial reason to believe that the 'sorry' outweights the 'benefit.' The premise that the base will lead us faster down a path of destruction is, well, very unsubstantiated.

[rapscallioness]

Saphra Deden wrote...

rapscallioness wrote...

No, it is not logical to give the base to Cerberus. In game, Shepard knows that Cerberus has a very poor track record.

Their track record is fine and it is better that Cerberus have it than nobody have it. They've proved themselves capable of gaining valuable technology and information from Reaper tech.

rapscallioness wrote...

You no nothing about the outcome of keeping the tech.

You know nothing about the outcome of destroying it.

Their track record is awful, Saphra. And it is not better that Cerberus have it if they screw it up as is their tendency to screw up their experiments.

They got reaper tech, and all they managed was an AI and a big gun.

As far as knowing the outcome of destroying, I know it would--ideally--mean that Cerberus wouldn't get its incompetent hands on it.

Cerberus has done nothing to prove that they're capable of handling such tech. Minor experiments they've dabbled in have been disastrous. You cannot trust their savvy to deal with something on this level.

It is sad, but true. If Cerberus had a better record, I would have given them the tech. But with things being the way the were, no way.

[Ryzaki]

Uh...their reaper making factory? That they kind of need to make more Reapers?

I don't see why the Reapers *wouldn't* take back the CB facility. It saves them the time and effort of rebuilding another one.

Not that by that time valuable information wouldn't have been gained.