1667 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Sadly, spoilers intervene.

Wait me or you? because we learned that bit in ME2.

ME3 spoilers.

I'm not sure about the first bit. They've been doing this for a while, I'm pretty sure they have a good method of transport to wherever the baby facility is.

Sure: a single purpose-built vessel (that we blew up), or lots of cargo vessels (Reaper transports, or ships seized from the reaped). Both depend on the reliability of safe space travel between [Earth] and the processing center.

By the time the Reapers can secure both their processing center (the Omega mass relay nexus) and their resource center (the Acturus relay nexus, and Earth), as well as secure the space between them, the Reapers have pretty much won the galactic war already. At that point, they could simply build a new base, rather than need the old one.

It's not like the base provides a strategic advantage to the Reapers, after all. It's not like it's going to mass-produce Human Reapers to give them a new stream of Reaper dreadnaughts.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Umm... why would it go bad? Do you think that if the insurgents in Afghanistan or if the Iranians had technology identical to the United States that the United States would suddenly have a greater advantage? No, that is not how technology or warfare works. If we have the same tech as them then we've evened the playing field.

Yeah, because there's no such thing as experience, training or knowledge when it comes to handling that technology. 

[Ryzaki]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Cerberus works in cells, they'd send in scavengers and they'd salvage the tech and send it out to the labs. Scavengers who might potentially become indoctrinated pose no threat as they'd be too few in number and know nothing about the cells they're sending the things off to.

These various cells would salvage what they can from said technology, any indoctrinated cell is eliminated and research starts anew. The Illusive Man never risking indoctrination as he never leaves the safety of his star and none of the operatives know of his whereabouts. 

Right still not gambling on that seeing as how the only scavengers my Shep dealt with was himself. Otherwise the back up party was killed by the first.

[Dave of Canada]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I just love how some people seem to think that the Reapers can build structures equivalent to the Collector base in a matter of hours or days.

Or that they'd waste resources to build new a new one when they can claim what is already there and save the resources for something else in the future.

Except that wasn't the point of the argument at all, dear. The point was, it serves no tactical advantage to them at all to hold said facility. They can easily rebuild one after the war is done and they bring in the waves of humans to melt down, they'd have what's left of the entire galaxy indoctrinated by then and that it serves no real purpose for them to reclaim  it even if you did spare it because they gain... nothing much, really.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 10 décembre 2011 - 02:25 .

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
It's a phrase that really only applies when there's substantial reason to believe that the 'sorry' outweights the 'benefit.' The premise that the base will lead us faster down a path of destruction is, well, very unsubstantiated.

Congratulations: you apparently understand the concept of non-sequiter.

Not really relevant to my post, but hey. You know how to post images. Good for you.

I wasn't trying to prove anything. I could just have wrote: This statement reminds me of a certain turian councilor. But why not endorse this thread with pictures a bit ...

[rapscallioness]

Saphra Deden wrote...

rapscallioness wrote...

Their track record is awful, Saphra.

No, it isn't.

Their only losses due to internal failures are Teltin, the Rachni, and Overlord. Teltin and Overlord produced useful (or potentially useful) resources.

Otherwise they've done just fine in their endeavors.

No, they haven't. Internal failures are their failures.

They successfully broke from the Alliance. They recovered Shepard's body. They obtained the means to travel about freely in the galaxy. They took over numerous corporations as fronts. They bot the SR1 built and built the SR2. They built EDI, they brought Shepard back to life, they eliminated the Shadow Broker, they eliminated the Collectors, they stopped the batarian plot against the Council, they took over Trident, they found the derelict Reaper and recovered the IFF...

So what, they broke from the Alliance. That means nothing.  The SB recovered Shpeard's body. They can roam the galaxy freely--again--so what. They have fronts for money laundering---that doesn't mean they can handle reaper tech.

The consequences of their effort of bringing Shepard back to life remain to be seen.

They eliminated the SB--I am the SB now.

They eliminated the Collector's--because Shepard blew up the base.

Everything else is you missing the point. Any genetic or tech experiments that Cerberus has tried its hand in has backfired. You don't give an organization like that more dangerous tech. They obviously don't know what they're doing. It's unfortunate really. Shepard could use a savvy ally, but Cerberus is not that.

Rap said...

They got reaper tech, and all they managed was an AI and a big gun.

That A.I. was pretty goddamn important. Without it you couldn't have completed your mission. That big gun (which wasn't Cerberus) made your mission a lot easier.

EDI is great--too bad the Collector's still abducted my crew.

Rap wrote...

As far as knowing the outcome of destroying, I know it would--ideally--mean that Cerberus wouldn't get its incompetent hands on it.

So what is your worst case scenaro? That Cerberus kills itself? Whoopy do. You know what my worst case scenario is? The Reapers kill or process us all.

You are way too focused on Cerberus, just the VS actually.

Cerberus kills itself? I don't even know what you're talking here.

To take stab in the dark---no, i don;t worry that Cerberus kills itself. I worry that Cerberus kills us all before we can even get to the Reapers because Cerberus is all thumbs.

The VS...lol..nice red herring, but the VS has nothing to do with the monumental level of incompetence Cerberus has displayed.

Besides which, I thought that's what you wanted. For us to give up and let the Reapers have their way.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Welcome to BioWare Social Network.... here is your complimentary "I'm with crazy and argumentative ->" T-Shirt.... have a nice day.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...good grief. Both decisions are viable and justified. Why have the needless d*** measuring contest?

Because some people are trying some of those non-viable arguments to an absurd degree.

So how viable is my "I don't trust Cerberus to use the base without massive indoctrination occuring and making the whole issue moot?" arguement?

I think it's weak because it over-estimates the risk, both in terms of likelyhood (the accidental exposure risk) and danger (the ability of the indoctrinated in question), and ignore the capability of, well, a correction of any problem that does arrive (wiping out an indoctrinated cell isn't some galaxy-consuming task).

An indoctrinated research team is never going to be the Collectors 2.0, or be more capable than the Collectors already proved themselves not to be. And that's if we ignore the multitude of counter-indoctrination measures available. (Limiting exposures, quarantine of teams, VI/AI support, etc.)


You'll be happy to know that, going from the spoilers and Invasion comic, Cerberus isn't indoctrinated in ME3 because of some research accident.

Why can't we all just get along? 

Because you don't surrender.

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
ME3 spoilers.

Ah that figures.

Sure: a single purpose-built vessel (that we blew up), or lots of cargo vessels (Reaper transports, or ships seized from the reaped). Both depend on the reliability of safe space travel between [Earth] and the processing center.

By the time the Reapers can secure both their processing center (the Omega mass relay nexus) and their resource center (the Acturus relay nexus, and Earth), as well as secure the space between them, the Reapers have pretty much won the galactic war already. At that point, they could simply build a new base, rather than need the old one.

It's not like the base provides a strategic advantage to the Reapers, after all. It's not like it's going to mass-produce Human Reapers to give them a new stream of Reaper dreadnaughts.

I don't know why they'd need a "safe" route. It's not like they can't spare troops to defend it and building new Reapers bolster their numbers and allows them to then slaughter the species completely without holding back. (assuming this war goes on for years and not months).

Really depends on how many resources new base needs though. It might still be easier to just grab the old one.

I doubt Reapers can be mass produced quickly. And I doubt they need dreadnaughts. It's not like the species are a serious threat. We might be able to kill a few of them but we would ultimately lose.

[Dave of Canada]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You'll be happy to know that, going from the spoilers and Invasion comic, Cerberus isn't indoctrinated in ME3 because of some research accident.

Though that's metagame.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

I wasn't trying to prove anything. I could just have wrote: This statement reminds me of a certain turian councilor. But why not endorse this thread with pictures a bit ...

The Turian Councilor dismissed a starship that blew up on his front door.

The existence of galaxy-dooming technology on the Collector Base if it's kept, however...

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

If we are building the technology then we will have knowledge.

Having to fight the Reapers at all will give us the experience and training.

Wow.

So you're going to throw rookies against the Reaper forces with experimental technology that we might have a hard time recovering or even test out during a battle?

It's good to know that you'll never be a battle commander, then.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Hey... this thread is "To all the people that didnt blow up the CB"... YOU have no say in OUR message to YOU

LOLz

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I think it's weak because it over-estimates the risk, both in terms of likelyhood (the accidental exposure risk) and danger (the ability of the indoctrinated in question), and ignore the capability of, well, a correction of any problem that does arrive (wiping out an indoctrinated cell isn't some galaxy-consuming task).

An indoctrinated research team is never going to be the Collectors 2.0, or be more capable than the Collectors already proved themselves not to be. And that's if we ignore the multitude of counter-indoctrination measures available. (Limiting exposures, quarantine of teams, VI/AI support, etc.)


You'll be happy to know that, going from the spoilers and Invasion comic, Cerberus isn't indoctrinated in ME3 because of some research accident.

Considering what happened every other time Cerberus dealt with Reaper tech I see no overestimation of risk. And wiping out an indoctrinated cell might not be though the damage they can do has the potential of being pretty bad (I'm assuming said base is still being worked on when the Reapers arrive). Blowing up the base still gives some tech with the risks being significantly lessened.

Which Cerberus hasn't shown itself willing to do in my Sheps view.

Oh so they finally started using preventive research? About time.

Because you don't surrender.

Well considering Shep defeats the Reapers regardless I have no reason to surrender.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 décembre 2011 - 02:35 .

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I wasn't trying to prove anything. I could just have wrote: This statement reminds me of a certain turian councilor. But why not endorse this thread with pictures a bit ...

The Turian Councilor dismissed a starship that blew up on his front door.

The existence of galaxy-dooming technology on the Collector Base if it's kept, however...

Well he's dismissing a potential danger. And so are you. And I guess we have seen enough in the entire games that lets us be suspicious of both, reaper tech and cerberus experiments going well. Granted, the Lazarus Project was impressive. Even though one has to wonder if it was just one step on their way to reaper construction. I mean it's possible that they didn't do it just to save Shepard. They maybe needed some lab rat anyway. Processing human genetic materials into a reaper and building a deceased human being back from ... decay ... that doesn't sound so far away anymore.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 10 décembre 2011 - 02:38 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...
I don't know why they'd need a "safe" route. It's not like they can't spare troops to defend it and building new Reapers bolster their numbers and allows them to then slaughter the species completely without holding back. (assuming this war goes on for years and not months).

The safe route is for the transports carrying the supplies, not the base itself. By the time you can do both secure transport routes AND the conquer the supply base, the Reapers will have pretty much won the war.

The Reaper creation process is slow and marginal. It's a mega-structure, not a mass-production device. The Reaper War is almost certainly going to be over, one way or another, before a single Human-Reaper dreadnaught could be built. Even if we greatly multiply that, we'd be looking at single-digits of new Reapers... in an armada of thousands.

Really depends on how many resources new base needs though. It might still be easier to just grab the old one.

Since the old base can be destroyed in a matter of, well, minutes, 'easier' is a certain context. If they could get it without being scuttled, sure.

I doubt Reapers can be mass produced quickly. And I doubt they need dreadnaughts. It's not like the species are a serious threat. We might be able to kill a few of them but we would ultimately lose.

Which goes back to the 'the Reapers could just build a new base regardless, so destroying this one wouldn't hurt them significantly.'

It's about whether the base can help us that's important. It doesn't help the Reapers much even if they did re-capture it (which is no sure thing).

[AlexXIV]

Ryzaki wrote...
Well considering Shep defeats the Reapers regardless I have no reason to surrender.

Yeah well kinda hard to convince people of the worth of the base when we all already know it isn't necessary. We are basically discussing an 'alternative universe' theory.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I wasn't trying to prove anything. I could just have wrote: This statement reminds me of a certain turian councilor. But why not endorse this thread with pictures a bit ...

The Turian Councilor dismissed a starship that blew up on his front door.

The existence of galaxy-dooming technology on the Collector Base if it's kept, however...

Well he's dismissing a potential danger. And so are you. And I guess we have seen enough in the entirety games that lets us be suspicious of both, reaper tech and cerberus experiments going well.

The Councilor's dismissal isn't about a potential danger: it's about a self-evident danger that was literally outside his office. The support for the Reapers was the actual Reaper.

Unlike him, however, you haven't even given shape or form to your proposed doomsday tech. It's a threat you've proposed, but not substantiated. You appeal to cautionaries without giving any expectation of what, exactly, you're cautioning against.

Granted, the Lazarus Project was impressive. Even though one has to
wonder if it was just one step on their way to reaper construction. I
mean it's possible that they didn't do it just to save Shepard. They
maybe needed some lab rat anyway. I processing human genetic materials
into a reaper and building a deceased human being back from ... decay
... that doesn't sound so far away anymore.

No one knew about the Reaper construction process before Shepard did. This is a baseless conspiracy.

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The safe route is for the transports carrying the supplies, not the base itself. By the time you can do both secure transport routes AND the conquer the supply base, the Reapers will have pretty much won the war.

The Reaper creation process is slow and marginal. It's a mega-structure, not a mass-production device. The Reaper War is almost certainly going to be over, one way or another, before a single Human-Reaper dreadnaught could be built. Even if we greatly multiply that, we'd be looking at single-digits of new Reapers... in an armada of thousands.

Right. I still don't see why they'd not destroy it/retake it to prevent the organics from using it though. Even if it's too little too late every little bit counts.

Since the old base can be destroyed in a matter of, well, minutes, 'easier' is a certain context. If they could get it without being scuttled, sure.

Or they might just want organics to destroy it so they can no longer study it.

Which goes back to the 'the Reapers could just build a new base regardless, so destroying this one wouldn't hurt them significantly.'

It's about whether the base can help us that's important. It doesn't help the Reapers much even if they did re-capture it (which is no sure thing).

Point.

It does help them either way though. Organics would no longer have access to it.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Seeing how human beings are so argumentative OVER a FICTIONAL STORY and a FICTIONAL SITUATION....

I say let Earth die.... were no better than Vorcha

My Shepard is going to perform his first Renegade action.... DOING NOTHING ABOUT THE PROBLEM AT HAND

[Medhia Nox]

@Dean_The_Young: Interesting that you have made a contingency plan to blow the Collector Base up should it ever be compromised...

And yet - the Reapers never seemed to think of that.

Unless they wanted us to have it - just like they wanted us to find Mass Relays - and the Citadel - etc.

====

Reaper X: We lost the Collector Base - now the organics will find the Deus Ex Machina.

Reaper Y: Why didn't we use the contingency plan?

Reaper Z: We didn't have one.

Reaper Y: Oh...

Reaper X: Wait - we could rebuild those things without even thinking... seeing as we're so vastly superior and all.  So - we never thought of just scuttling the thing before the organics could get it and use the magic bullet we hid inside to defeat us? 

Reaper Z:  Opps? 

Reaper X: Damnit all - crafty organics!

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 10 décembre 2011 - 02:42 .