1667 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

@Dean_The_Young: So... they want to make Reapers and continue the cycle... so you attack with a sneak attack and a vast robot army and fail...

And your next choice is to send your birthing chamber to rile up the organics further?

THEN you invade?

====

@Omega4RelayResident: Is that House Ix? Not familiar with any others.... and wikipedia is cheating.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Ryzaki wrote...
Pfft. Watch my Shep save the galaxy better than yours without saving the CB.

You go Girl!  

Edit: Its house Ordos

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 10 décembre 2011 - 02:54 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

Right. I still don't see why they'd not destroy it/retake it to prevent the organics from using it though. Even if it's too little too late every little bit counts.

Not from the Reaper point of view.

Without getting into ME3 spoilers, I can't really discuss why... but just know that they're actually right about it.

Or they might just want organics to destroy it so they can no longer study it.

It's amazing how many people argue 'they want us to keep the base', but so few argue the other way around.

Personally, I wonder what people would have done if TIM tried reverse psychology and told Shepard to blow it up for the soul of the species.

It does help them either way though. Organics would no longer have access to it.

At the point they arrive, however, the war footing's already been decided, and most of the gains to be gotten from it have, well, already been got. 'Denial' doesn't exceed 'costs involved with blitzing the Omega 4 relay'.

I'm going to be hypothetical here to make a point. This isn't from the spoilers. The Terminus and Council aren't going to be buddy-buddy when the Reapers arrive. Politics and history and all that. But nothing would help them unite more than the Reapers attacking Omega, gate to the Collector Base.

The Reapers have to ask 'is uniting the Terminus and Council worth destroying the base'?

And other such things.

[Medhia Nox]

@Saphra Deden: So - you are looking for the Collector Base to provide your magic bullet?

You sure do sling a lot of insults - so unrefined.

[Dean_the_Young]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Dean_The_Young: So... they want to make Reapers and continue the cycle... so you attack with a sneak attack and a vast robot army and fail...

And your next choice is to send your birthing chamber to rile up the organics further?

THEN you invade?

I understand the concept of 'divide and conquer' is an advanced strategy for some, but it really does have a good history.

If a sneak attack fails, provoke a fight between two people to take advantage of the chaose when you arrive.

If the Collector Base is destroyed... well, it's replacable.

[AlexXIV]

Someone With Mass wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
I guess moving a Reaper is difficult. It may have been their plan to do that actually, but they failed.

I don't know. If people can move asteroids that are larger than mass relays, one would think that they'd be able to move a Reaper. 

Because of the mass effect core. I don't remember exactly, but wasn't something up with it that it kept the reaper in this position? If I remember correctly the reaper dropped because shep destroyed the core. So probably before that the reaper was unmovable.

[Someone With Mass]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Personally, I wonder what people would have done if TIM tried reverse psychology and told Shepard to blow it up for the soul of the species.

If he had told me the alternative, I'd still blow it up.

I'd rather have a neutral party come in, gather the data from the base and then give it to me so I can decide who would have it, instead of just giving it to TIM with no guarantees that anything useful will end up in my hands.

[Medhia Nox]

@Dean_The_Young: And since you insist it's replaceable (which you have no proof of) - why didn't they blow it up if it truly contains all this powerful information by which the Reapers could be hurt?

And please don't be snide - I understand divide and conquer.

======

If TIM asked me to blow it up... I'd question my opinion about him - then blow the ****ing thing up.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 10 décembre 2011 - 03:00 .

[rapscallioness]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Why did you **** with the formatting? Way to be a pain in the ass.

Are you talking to me? about the formatting? Way to be a prig.

rapscallioness wrote...

No, they haven't. Internal failures are their failures.

Right and there were three of those. Four if you want to count Grayson turning on them.

Rap wrote...

So what, they broke from the Alliance. That means nothing.  The SB recovered Shpeard's body. They can roam the galaxy freely--again--so what. They have fronts for money laundering---that doesn't mean they can handle reaper tech.

What? Breaking from one of the most advanced and influential militaries in the galaxy is nothing? Cerberus recovered Shepard's body FROM THE SHADOW BROKER. I didn't think I need to spell that out.

Yes, I didn't stutter. Breaking from the Alliance is something even Shpeard does. As you say "whoopy do".

From the shadow broker---lol again so what? (and you certainly don't need to Cap it out. Unless you're getting agitated.

Roaming the galaxy freely when the most powerful institutions within it wish their destruction is a major accomplishment.

Their record for handling Reaper tech speaks for itself: invaluable technology that made our successes possible.

These are so much mundane efforts. We're talking about responsibly handling Reaper Tech. Cereberus hhas not proven itself worthy to accommpliish that task.

Rap said...

They eliminated the SB--I am the SB now.

You are Liara? In any case that is irrelevant, Cerberus still got rid of him. They made a complete joke out of him in fact.

Liara---as I remember Shpeard was the one in the Lair doing everthing. Including killing that damn Yahg.

Rap wrote...

They eliminated the Collector's--because Shepard blew up the base.

Or because Shepard purged it. Whatever the case may be, the Collectors are no more.

Rap wrote...

Any genetic or tech experiments that Cerberus has tried its hand in has backfired.

Except that isn't true.

I'm sorry that you are pissed that the Collectors took your crew, but if not for EDI they'd have taken your entire ****ing ship. Then where would you be?

Grow up.

Yeah, it pissed me off. I still love EDI, and find her quite useful, but you having such trust, and pinning such accolades on Cerberus because of an AI is laughable. It's cute the way you defend your man, and all, but it's naive when you look at how many times Shepard has had to mop up after these people. I am not willing to engage in a Reaper Tech Cerberus mop up when the Reapers are at our door.

Rap wrote...
I worry that Cerberus kills us all before we can even get to the Reapers because Cerberus is all thumbs.

Why and how would they kill us?

Because Cerberus are idiots. This is the point, Saphra. You're so enraptured with the idea of being a sassy bad girl...boy? That you don't see what's right in front of you.

[Someone With Mass]

AlexXIV wrote...
Because of the mass effect core. I don't remember exactly, but wasn't something up with it that it kept the reaper in this position? If I remember correctly the reaper dropped because shep destroyed the core. So probably before that the reaper was unmovable.

Then they could fly in there, mount whatever they need to tow it and then isolate/deactivate the core so no ME fields can affect it and then haul the ugly thing out of there.

Would have been better than establishing a small outpost in the damn thing, complete with airlocks and all.

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Not from the Reaper point of view.

Without getting into ME3 spoilers, I can't really discuss why... but just know that they're actually right about it.

I figured the base wouldn't be that valuable (for weapons against the Reapers anyway) it's collector tech after all which while far more effective than the tech organics are currently using isn't that great compared to Reaper tech. I doubt they'd give the collectors tech that could seriously hurt them. I wouldn't. I know it's all Reaper tech but if the Collectors were fighting Shep with you know...stuff on the level of Sovie Shep most likely would've lost.


To me the main value from that base comes from things that we either have no benefit using (Reaper slushy) or things that if we did create I'd want the Reapers to blow us all to bits (Collectors, scions and the like).

It's amazing how many people argue 'they want us to keep the base', but so few argue the other way around.

Personally, I wonder what people would have done if TIM tried reverse psychology and told Shepard to blow it up for the soul of the species.

I'm pretty sure they don't care one way or the other. Though they should've had a self destruct button if only they weren't so arrogant...Not only would they kill the meddlesome humans who got there in the first place but their secrets are kept...well secret.

I'd still blow it up. Only way I'd keep the base is if it involved allowing the council, the alliance and cerberus all access to it. The red tape alone would be hilarious.

At the point they arrive, however, the war footing's already been decided, and most of the gains to be gotten from it have, well, already been got. 'Denial' doesn't exceed 'costs involved with blitzing the Omega 4 relay'.

I'm going to be hypothetical here to make a point. This isn't from the spoilers. The Terminus and Council aren't going to be buddy-buddy when the Reapers arrive. Politics and history and all that. But nothing would help them unite more than the Reapers attacking Omega, gate to the Collector Base.

The Reapers have to ask 'is uniting the Terminus and Council worth destroying the base'?

And other such things.

Ah that's a good point.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 décembre 2011 - 03:06 .

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Personally, I wonder what people would have done if TIM tried reverse psychology and told Shepard to blow it up for the soul of the species.

Difficult because destroying it was the plan anyway. So if he popped up and said 'we can save it but go ahead blowing it up' it would be a bit ... weird. But he somehow did it anyway? I wouldn't let him have it. As cheesy as some of the paragon speeches are, they mostly speak my mind. Tbh after my first playthrough I talked to every squadmember to get feedback. Then I played the SM again keeping the base and talked to the crew again. I guess you know what I am talking about. Everyone and their mom think that destroying it is the better option. Which not why I originally destroyed the base, but what reinforced my resolve to do it again and again.

[Medhia Nox]

@AlexXIV - you're so going to get a metagaming sticker for that comment.

[Ryzaki]

I don't think they thought destroying it was the better option but that between destroying it and giving it to TIM they were better off blowing it up.

[mango smoothie]

You know whats interesting how much the Rachni decision is simliar to the Collector Base decision.

      With the Rachni you can kill her to prevent the risk of her becoming an enemy in the future. While sparing her you take the risk of her possibly becoming an enemy in the hope of them becoming an ally. With the Collector Base you can destroy it to prevent someone who you think might be a possible enemy from becoming stronger. While keeping it takes the risk of that in the hopes that they can become a powerful ally.
   
  

Modifié par mango smoothie, 10 décembre 2011 - 03:06 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

How is that an accomplishment?

Which part?

I was just comparing the costs with the gains. The costs when Cerberus has had Reaper tech have been pretty small. The gains have fluxated from minor to massive.

Now if you said the IFF was found at the cost of only a single cell yeah that's a win. Would've been more of a win if they hadn't let their people get indoctrinated to that extent so that the DR had to be kicked into a black hole losing loads of far more valuable intel but eh...

And if Shepard hadn't had to leave someone behind on Virmire, it would have been more of a win as well. That's true, but it's also meaningless.

The question isn't 'is it flawless', but 'is it worth it?'

Really, no one (bar the Reapers) has a flawless history with Reaper tech.

A loss and a gain. Especially when that loss should've been avoided seeing as how Cerberus of all people should be well aware of the effects of indoctrination.

Well, the 'effects' have never been as fully understood as some presume. It's not like Saren shared his own research, after all. The premise behind the Retribution experiments on Grayson, after all, was that Cerberus didn't have all that much knowledge of the indoctrination process. (And while Retribution could be said to have many failures, Cerberus being a victim to indoctrination wasn't one of them.)

By the recordings, the team leader knew of it in general, and did take steps to try and identify a risk (the nano-tech, which seemed safe). It failed, but it wasn't a failure of total ignorance.

That's not to say said gains couldn't have happened without a loss though.

This is something that's more tied into the narrative of Mass Effect. Reaper tech is dangerous because it's dangerous, not because other people are incompetent: that's one of the writer conceits no matter how poorly implemented.

It could be anyone, and Reaper tech would start off being as incredibly tricky no matter how 'competent' the researcher group.

I'll agree to disagree then.

Not seeing that either.

Well, the Derilect Reaper was pretty broke. :innocent:

Is that a bad thing or no?

To take an advantage:

There's a scene where Cerberus launches a coup of Omega. Cerberus soldiers are marching down the halls like they one the place.


A Batarian from the Blue Suns is fighting the Eclipse and Blood Pack for the station, and pretty much goes 'You guys? Take over? Hah, yeah right!'

Pfft. Watch my Shep save the galaxy better than yours without saving the CB.

This gets into heavy ME3 spoilers, plus other issues.

[Ravensword]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Saphra Deden: Good thing they didn't think to blow it up then... not quite the vastly superior unstoppable machine gods you've been predicting Saphra.

And thank heavens they placed your magic bullet on it.

They should team up with TIM.

What magic bullet it? Go **** yourself.

The Reapers aren't perfect, I never said they were. The base had no self-destruct probably they did not expect anybody could reach it and even when Shepard did reach it they probably didn't expect he could succeed.

This is what I was waiting for. There's the Saphra we all know and love.

[AlexXIV]

Someone With Mass wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Because of the mass effect core. I don't remember exactly, but wasn't something up with it that it kept the reaper in this position? If I remember correctly the reaper dropped because shep destroyed the core. So probably before that the reaper was unmovable.

Then they could fly in there, mount whatever they need to tow it and then isolate/deactivate the core so no ME fields can affect it and then haul the ugly thing out of there.

Would have been better than establishing a small outpost in the damn thing, complete with airlocks and all.

Well maybe they could, maybe not. I don't know enough about mass effect cores, fields or the progress they made on the DR.

[Dean_the_Young]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Dean_The_Young: And since you insist it's replaceable (which you have no proof of) -

Uh, it's an artificial creation.

If something can be built once, it can be built again.

why didn't they blow it up if it truly contains all this powerful information by which the Reapers could be hurt?

Multiple reasons, a number of which have already been given to you.

And please don't be snide - I understand divide and conquer.

You apparently didn't until I called it that.

[AlexXIV]

Ravensword wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Saphra Deden: Good thing they didn't think to blow it up then... not quite the vastly superior unstoppable machine gods you've been predicting Saphra.

And thank heavens they placed your magic bullet on it.

They should team up with TIM.

What magic bullet it? Go **** yourself.

The Reapers aren't perfect, I never said they were. The base had no self-destruct probably they did not expect anybody could reach it and even when Shepard did reach it they probably didn't expect he could succeed.

This is what I was waiting for. There's the Saphra we all know and love.

You were waiting for Saphra saying go **** yourself? You need a hobby.

[Ryzaki]

@Dean:  Fine whatever. You and your logic.

And I wasn't really being spoilery. Without spoilers I'm pretty sure the best ending doesn't hinge on saving/destroying the CB. Heck I doubt it hinges on any one decision actually .

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 décembre 2011 - 03:11 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Ravensword - it was my honor to bring out the very best in Saphra.