1667 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

I highly highly doubt anyone in their right minds is gonna have banned weapons fighting the Reapers (if said weapons are effective on either Reaper or Reaper slaves). (as in the council will either turn a blind eye or momentarily lift all bans on weapon production so long as said weapons are being used against the Reapers). Otherwise they really are too dumb to live.

Now that's a bit heavy-handed. The species in the galaxy don't just have to survive the Reapers, after all: they have to survive the aftermath as well. If they don't keep into account surviving the post-Reaper world as well, they'd also be too dumb to live.

But there certainly would be practical weapon limitations that could still apply, going by various effeciencies of war. Planet-busting nukes can serve evil Rachni a bit better than the good Rachni, for example.

Though the last bit true. I'm not sure that's a heavy enough push from powerful to moderate though.

I've made my case, but I've no real interest of forcing a view change. My argument is that the diplomatic inefficiencies will mean the Rachni are restrained in acting as allies more than the pure potential they could address as enemies.

I can kind of see it. But I'm not really getting all these constraints with the Reaper threat. Maybe if it was something significantly less genocidal sure.

The Reapers aren't the final enemy. Any Rachni alliance will need to not only last the Reapers, but also after the war as well.

[Dean_the_Young]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Alex XIV: Do you really think the egos on the BSN can ever find an accord? They are 100% sure they are correct... especially the "logic" crowd - I'm still awaiting some proof of their education in anything resembling logic - ****** jack prizes not withstanding.

The Grand Admiral is just pointing out the obvious.

Now now, no need to demean yourself like this.

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Now that's a bit heavy-handed. The species in the galaxy don't just have to survive the Reapers, after all: they have to survive the aftermath as well. If they don't keep into account surviving the post-Reaper world as well, they'd also be too dumb to live.

But there certainly would be practical weapon limitations that could still apply, going by various effeciencies of war. Planet-busting nukes can serve evil Rachni a bit better than the good Rachni, for example.

Planet busting nukes...where is it said the Rachni were destroying planets? 

And yeah it may be heavy handed but that's where I stand. This isn't a normal war where if they lose the worse they face is losing nationality, freedom or power. The price of defeat is extermination. There should be no lines that aren't crossed. The price of defeat is just too high.

I see no reason a planet destroying nuke shouldn't be used if it helps defeat the Reapers. Is it a horrible thing? Yes. However if it leads to a victory? Bombs away.

I've made my case, but I've no real interest of forcing a view change. My argument is that the diplomatic inefficiencies will mean the Rachni are restrained in acting as allies more than the pure potential they could address as enemies.

So agree to disagree? 

The Reapers aren't the final enemy. Any Rachni alliance will need to not only last the Reapers, but also after the war as well.

I'm gonna have to disagree with this. Probably because I'd hope that if facing an overwhelming powerful foe humanity would do whatever it takes to win. No matter how destructive it ends up being.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 décembre 2011 - 10:40 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

Uh...Shep did know about the Reapers at that moment. Shep's vision was made apparent to him (or at least the part where the Reapers slaughtered the protheans before vanishing and Saren was trying to bring them back) before he even left the Citadel the first time. He figures it out when Tali plays the recording. He didn't know Sovereign was a Reaper until Virmire though. But he was always aware that the Reapers were coming. (Thus his speech at the end of ME1)

Shepard's vision of the Reapers at the time was just 'bad things.' The whole extinction cycle and sentient-AI's-with-brainwashing doesn't get revealed until Virmire.

What we are dealing with is a bit different from 'Reapers exist and are bad', which is the generalism Dave was referring to.

[Medhia Nox]

@Dean_The_Young: I've never once used the word "logic" - though as far as ego, yes - you would be correct. The view from my high horse is beautiful - and, as I remind people often - do be mindful not to step in his ****.

Concerning being right - this is a video game, I don't live in the ME universe - there's no way to be "right" about anything.

I can see a reason to keeping the base - I'm just reluctant to admit that because the people who are adamant and loud on these forums do not impress me and I am reticent to throw anything even remotely resembling agreement into their court (which - of course, I have just done).

Seeing "both" angles is instantly twisted to - "Well, if you can see my viewpoint - you obviously agree with me." Which couldn't be further from the truth.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

Planet busting nukes...where is it said the Rachni were destroying planets?

Nowhere. I'm giving an example of differences of technological applications in different roles.

And yeah it may be heavy handed but that's where I stand. This isn't a normal war where if they lose the worse they face is losing nationality. The price of defeat is death. There should be no lines that aren't crossed. The price of defeat is just too high.

Which is why you need alliances. But alliances aren't the same as co-belligerants, which is really what you're advocating.

So agree to disagree? 

No. Just disagree.

The Reapers aren't the final enemy. Any Rachni alliance will need to not only last the Reapers, but also after the war as well.

I'm gonna have to disagree with this. Probably because I'd hope that if facing an overwhelming powerful foe humanity would do whatever it takes to win. No matter how destructive it ends up being.

If the Council survive against the Reapers just to be swarmed by the Rachni, they're just as dead as if the Reapers won. That's why the galaxy has to not only win the Reaper war, but the post-Reaper war. If the Rachni can't establish that they're a part of that post-Reaper victory as well, they'll never be true allies and the effectiveness of any common cause will be diminished.

Since the galaxy has no final boss, after which peace will reign forever, that means the survivability of the post-war is just as important as survivability in this war. If you lose at any point, you lose period.

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Shepard's vision of the Reapers at the time was just 'bad things.' The whole extinction cycle and sentient-AI's-with-brainwashing doesn't get revealed until Virmire.

What we are dealing with is a bit different from 'Reapers exist and are bad', which is the generalism Dave was referring to.

Extinction cycle no. Shep just knows Reapers killed all the Protheans killed them all and Saren's trying to bring them back sure.

Not to mention like someone else said you can do noveria after Virmire.

[Dean_the_Young]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Dean_The_Young: I've never once used the word "logic" - though as far as ego, yes - you would be correct. The view from my high horse is beautiful - and, as I remind people often - do be mindful not to step in his ****.

There it is.

Concerning being right - this is a video game, I don't live in the ME universe - there's no way to be "right" about anything.

Oh, sure there is. Moral relativism doesn't cancle facts.

Garrus, for example is a Turian. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

Extinction cycle no. Shep just knows Reapers killed all the Protheans killed them all and Saren's trying to bring them back sure.

Which really doesn't qualify as knowing what exactly you're dealing with. Which was Dave's point.

Not to mention like someone else said you can do noveria after Virmire.

Sure... which means that argument can apply after Virmire. But not before, which was pretty much the context Dave was talking about. If your Shepard does Virmire before Noveria... good! If not, however, that argument can't be used.


And I got to go. C ya.

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Which is why you need alliances. But alliances aren't the same as co-belligerants, which is really what you're advocating.

What's a co-belligerant?

If the Council survive against the Reapers just to be swarmed by the Rachni, they're just as dead as if the Reapers won. That's why the galaxy has to not only win the Reaper war, but the post-Reaper war. If the Rachni can't establish that they're a part of that post-Reaper victory as well, they'll never be true allies and the effectiveness of any common cause will be diminished.

Since the galaxy has no final boss, after which peace will reign forever, that means the survivability of the post-war is just as important as survivability in this war. If you lose at any point, you lose period.

That's only works under the assumption that the Rachni are strong enough after the Reaper War to take everyone else out. (Or that they would even want to).

Not seeing it. The Rachni are dangerous sure but no where near as dangerous as the Reapers. Them taking over the galaxy just doesn't seem likely.  That said my Shep does trust the queen so... could go either way.

[Medhia Nox]

@Dean_The_Young: You continue to prove the good Grand Admiral Cheesecake correct.

Anyway - gotta go do something productive - I'll add more inane posts later.

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Which really doesn't qualify as knowing what exactly you're dealing with. Which was Dave's point.

So making a JIC for the worse case scenario (Saren succeding in summoning the Reapers) never comes to Shep's mind then? Because Shep certainly isn't the type to lay down and die just because he's fighting a fight he can't win.

Sure... which means that argument can apply after Virmire. But not before, which was pretty much the context Dave was talking about. If your Shepard does Virmire before Noveria... good! If not, however, that argument can't be used.


And I got to go. C ya.

It can though if you operate under the Just in Case tangent. Shep does know the Reapers are a serious threat that wiped the Protheans out and that saren and the geth are working together to bring them back. Trying to get allies for their arrival in case Shep fails to stop Saren isn't that far fetched.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 décembre 2011 - 10:55 .

[DPSSOC]

ArMedSuRViVoR wrote...

Cerberus will no doubt yank it away from Shepard and use it against him.
That, is bad.

Of course it is, it was a Renegade decision; can't expect Bioware to break formula now and have one of those turn out moderately well.

In all seriousness it'll be meaningless, at most we'll get an email, maybe a news report.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Dean_The_Young: You continue to prove the good Grand Admiral Cheesecake correct.

 

It is a sad day when I am a voice of...semi-moderation.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

DPSSOC wrote...

ArMedSuRViVoR wrote...

Cerberus will no doubt yank it away from Shepard and use it against him.
That, is bad.

Of course it is, it was a Renegade decision; can't expect Bioware to break formula now and have one of those turn out moderately well.

In all seriousness it'll be meaningless, at most we'll get an email, maybe a news report.

No way man it'll be way more important!

We might get an email, a news report, and a few lines of dialogue!

[Nightwriter]

Seboist wrote...

If it was up to me I would done three choices involving the Rachni Queen that would be centered on who Shepard wanted to align herself with.

Pro-Rachni -> Let the Queen go

Pro-Council-> Keep the Queen locked up and ship her to them.

Pro-Krogan-> Kill the Queen

What? But then we couldn't have had DRAMATIC MORAL CHOICE.

Next you'll tell me you think we ought to have had the option to question Veetor more thoroughly with Tali in the room, then send him back to the Migrant Fleet.

Get out of here with your reasonable solutions.

[DPSSOC]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

ArMedSuRViVoR wrote...

Cerberus will no doubt yank it away from Shepard and use it against him.
That, is bad.

Of course it is, it was a Renegade decision; can't expect Bioware to break formula now and have one of those turn out moderately well.

In all seriousness it'll be meaningless, at most we'll get an email, maybe a news report.

No way man it'll be way more important!

We might get an email, a news report, and a few lines of dialogue!

Now are we talking dialogue between two NPC's running in the background or an actual conversation involving Shepard?  Cause if it's the latter I think you're just setting yourself up for a fall.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

DPSSOC wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

ArMedSuRViVoR wrote...

Cerberus will no doubt yank it away from Shepard and use it against him.
That, is bad.

Of course it is, it was a Renegade decision; can't expect Bioware to break formula now and have one of those turn out moderately well.

In all seriousness it'll be meaningless, at most we'll get an email, maybe a news report.

No way man it'll be way more important!

We might get an email, a news report, and a few lines of dialogue!

Now are we talking dialogue between two NPC's running in the background or an actual conversation involving Shepard?  Cause if it's the latter I think you're just setting yourself up for a fall.

I've seen the spoilers.
I learned that Grunt is a duck.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 11 décembre 2011 - 06:06 .

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Dean_The_Young: I've never once used the word "logic" - though as far as ego, yes - you would be correct. The view from my high horse is beautiful - and, as I remind people often - do be mindful not to step in his ****.

There it is.

Concerning being right - this is a video game, I don't live in the ME universe - there's no way to be "right" about anything.

Oh, sure there is. Moral relativism doesn't cancle facts.

Garrus, for example is a Turian. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong.

I don't know, he may be a shapechanger.

But seriously, games always have their own rules. One of them seem to be that in the ME universe you can make morale choices instead of logic ones and usually fare better with it. So seeing how it is a fictional story it is not about being right or wrong, it is about preference. You guys would prefer if it was more realistic. That the idealistic crowd would fail because they refuse to see reason. That's basically the same as Dragon Age:Origins. Loghain is the realistic dude, the Warden the idealistic. And I don't need to tell you how it ends. It's a story, a sort of fairy tale. You could tear apart any of this kind of story by excessive use of logic and reason. Because they are not supposed to reflect real life at all times.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 11 décembre 2011 - 08:50 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

111987 wrote...
Totally missing the point. If you can't even admit it is far more likely the Reapers will find empires spanning several solar systems than remote isolated bases and secret space stations, there's no point in debating you.

And those massive spaning empires also have a lot more bases, so hte loss of a base is proportionalyl smaller.

If cerberus has 10 bases and loses 5, they lost half of their resources there. No different from a race with 1000 bases losing 500.
Reapers are going on an extermination spree. You WON'T hide a base in space from there. You can't.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

NO S*** SHERLOCK!
He was glad to be alive? How henius! How unhuman! Truly TIM is worse than Hitler!!

Who the f** wants to die and by a martyr? No one does. You just do it because you feel you have to.

The point was you took the argument out of context. You said TIM was willing to die to save humanity, and yet fail to mention that he only decided he was willing to die after he was corned by five Turians while armed with only a pistol.

The argument isn't taken out of context. It's normal that people don't think about sacrificing themselves unless it's necessary. As long as there is a reasonable chance of surviving, any normal person will try to size it.
Your drivel about TIM has been disproiven. Deal with it.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And your own argument doesnt' bode well for other races. You cannot prove the Council races won't destroy humanity. therefore I am completley justified (by your own logic) in wanting to wipte them out.

If that's the conclusion you reached, than you clearly don't understand my logic. I can see i'm wasting my time with you.

Haha...You own argument turns against you and you are powerless.

The amount of double-standards you use is staggering. And when you get called out on that then suddenly people dont' "understand you".
Well my fiend, I don't want to ever understand something as broken as that. That would be a clear sign my mind is going down the toilet.

You clearly don't understand what I'm saying and are not even trying, so I think we're done here. Believe what you wish, and I'll do the same. Just don't presume that everyone who disagrees with you is moronic lest you end up looking like a complete and utter fool yourself.

"No one undersstands me! Boo hoo hoo!"

Luckily for me, I dont' have to presume anything. You do a damn good job proving my points for me.

[XEternalXDreamsX]

Collector base or no...
Reapers are coming for 'u'!!!!

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

...and here I was trying to be polite.

You honestly think there is no Reaper technology in the base? So... if the base built a Reaper it wouldn't be a Reaper? What would it be? If it was a Reaper would have Reaper technology?

I suppose your post is the dumbest thing I've read all day, but in comparison to your usual stupidity it is nothing special.

So what happens if they're using their Collector machines to construct the Reaper? Are we just going to assume that the Reapers will do it the exact same way with their machines too?

You serious? You have no idea how construction of complicted machinery works, do you?

Machinery capable of constructing a reaper will be as advanced as a reaper. The components that go into hte reaper dont' pop into existence in vacuum.

Teh advanced alloys and materials? Tehy have to be created/smelted/shaped somewhere. The advanced conduits? They have to be built. Microchips, weapons, engines, etc? Also.

For the love of God Allmighty, try to THINK.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

A REAPER MANUFACTURING LOCATION is one hell of a resource.

Not for the Reapers it isn't, not during the Reaper war. It is an asset mostly useful to them after the war. It actually presents a weakness because while it can produce a Reaper it also needs to be defended by many more. One of the Reapers strengths is that they don't need to defend anything but the Collector base would break that trend.

So them capturing it actually works a bit in our favor. In any case, even if they are about to capture it we can still blow it up.

Yeah because it would take the entire Reaper fleet to take back their CB. BioWare has already announced that you fight individual Reapers on other planets. Its just that the mass extinction cycle BEGINS with Earth... so only about 90% of their forces are at Earth.... the other 10% is looking for you or ways to disable any resistance.

Stop lying. No percentages or numbers of repaer concetrations were given.

And can you slow this thread down?
I go on a trip for a day and find a dozen+ pages were posted!!!

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 11 décembre 2011 - 10:48 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...
We're still talking about the same machine race that invented the very technology we're using and managed to build a base inside the galactic core, which is surrounded by black holes, exploding suns and debris from ancient warships, which they created by using the mass relay as a trap, right?

They can send one captial Reaper along with a few squadrons of the minor ones to take that thing back. If they lose that small fleet, too bad.

Oh, and if we can rebuild the technology, then so can they. They can probably upgrade the base to be much more efficient to carry the new need of processing.

And tehy cna build a new base entirely too.

Look, there's thousands of reapers coming. You really think a static base that the reapers have to re-take first is a real problem?
Even if they managed to capture it (it's damn easy to booby-trap it), it helps their war effort by what? 0.00000000001? Oh Geez!

[Lotion Soronarr]

Saphra Deden wrote...

rapscallioness wrote...

You no nothing about the outcome of keeping the tech.

You know nothing about the outcome of destroying it.

We know that if we destroy it we face the reapers with nothing.