1667 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Saphra Deden wrote...

rapscallioness wrote...
As far as knowing the outcome of destroying, I know it would--ideally--mean that Cerberus wouldn't get its incompetent hands on it.

So what is your worst case scenaro? That Cerberus kills itself? Whoopy do. You know what my worst case scenario is? The Reapers kill or process us all.

You are way too focused on Cerberus, just as the VS actually.

QFT.
It's a disturbing trend I noticed among base-blowers. They're so focused on Cerberus.
Cerberus this, Cerberus that.. F**** CERBERUS!

Focus on the reapers people!
I've seen race horses with a bigger overview.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 11 décembre 2011 - 11:00 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ryzaki wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Essentially, that's the only reason I'd see them as possibly wanting to reclaim it. It would serve no tactical advantage to reclaim it as they've got access to the technology anyway, they made it.

Well it does have the additonal advantage of having the organic species lose access to it but that'll most likely be a too little too late scenario.

And while they may have access to the tech anyway that doesn't make losing it insignificant. Especially not if it takes a good deal of time and effort to build another one.

Which is irrelevant in the war.
Base or no base doesn't affect their abiltiy to EXTERMIANTE us - at best it slows down their processing (but not harvesting) a tad.

And since they only seem to be focused on harvesting the humans, then blowing up the base has 0 effect on other races.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
That's true, and so why then do you think it makes sense to sabotage our greatest chance yet to undermine them?

Undermining them by developing the exact same things they have?

Yeah, that will never go bad.

Indeed. The white mans thunder-sticks are evil! Agriculture is evil! They will suck out our soul!

Yeah, I cna see how having better guns, weapons, shield, more efficient power systems and so on will doom us....

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I just love how some people seem to think that the Reapers can build structures equivalent to the Collector base in a matter of hours or days.

Or that they'd waste resources to build new a new one when they can claim what is already there and save the resources for something else in the future.

I just love how some people think the reapers even need to take that base at all. Especially at the start of the war.

[Lotion Soronarr]

rapscallioness wrote...
Cerberus kills itself? I don't even know what you're talking here.

To take stab in the dark---no, i don;t worry that Cerberus kills itself. I worry that Cerberus kills us all before we can even get to the Reapers because Cerberus is all thumbs.

Erm..how exactly would Cerberus kill us all?

It's like saind Al'Quaida will take over the world if you give em a B-2 bomber.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ryzaki wrote...
I doubt Reapers can be mass produced quickly. And I doubt they need dreadnaughts. It's not like the species are a serious threat. We might be able to kill a few of them but we would ultimately lose.

Umm...so you just confirmed here that the CB is irreelvant to the reapers war effort.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ryzaki wrote...

Considering what happened every other time Cerberus dealt with Reaper tech I see no overestimation of risk. And wiping out an indoctrinated cell might not be though the damage they can do has the potential of being pretty bad (I'm assuming said base is still being worked on when the Reapers arrive). Blowing up the base still gives some tech with the risks being significantly lessened.

1) Wut? How many times did we see Cerberus dealign with reaper tech. The derelict reaper (which Sheppard desttroyed) and...erm...
You know, constructing a trend from 1 scenario is not really something one can do.

2) How so? When you blow the base up, you don't know what equipment you are blowing up and what survives. The risk is not lessened at all. It doens't change.

[Biotic Sage]

Destroying the collector base is ultimately about rejecting the trap that the Reapers set in the first place. The Mass Relays, the Citadel, we developed along "the paths that they desired" so that we would be easy to harvest. Understanding THEIR technology better obviously won't help us at all, we've seen that. Even if we understand it just as well as them, they will still have it too, and they have had it much longer and have much more of it; they know how to deal with their own sh*t.  We need to develop along a different path, in the hopes that we can reach something that will pragmatically be a one-up on their tech in terms of combat, and something that will be ideologically advocating humanity and not soulless calculation.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 11 décembre 2011 - 11:22 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Dean_The_Young: Interesting that you have made a contingency plan to blow the Collector Base up should it ever be compromised...

And yet - the Reapers never seemed to think of that.

Unless they wanted us to have it - just like they wanted us to find Mass Relays - and the Citadel - etc.

Or unless the writers didn't have good ideas. Alas, they have to give players SOME way of defeating an enemy.

And it's usualy in these kind of stories - that the more powerfull and "intelligent" enemies you face, the more idiotic and incompetent such enemies become - because the writers have to make the player suceed and even the playing field (meaning the enemy has to fial), and in most cases they can't pull that off without making either party look like a moron.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Destroying the collector base is ultimately about rejecting the trap that the Reapers set in the first place. The Mass Relays, the Citadel, we developed along "the paths that they desired" so that we would be easy to harvest. Understanding THEIR technology better obviously won't help us at all, we've seen that. Even if we understand it just as well as them, they will still have it too, and they have had it much longer and have much more of it; they know how to deal with their own sh*t.  We need to develop along a different path, in the hopes that we can reach something that will pragmatically be a one-up on their tech in terms of combat, and something that will be ideologically advocating humanity and not soulless calculation.

No, that entire argunmnet is a load of BS.

"Developing along paths they desire" is beingdependant on Mass Relays for inter-stellar travel. So we are at their mercy when they shut down the relay network.

Tehy never intended for us to have their best technology. Seriously..thinking that knowing their technology wont' help up as all is...... I can't really find a more fitting word than "idiiotic"

[Dave of Canada]

Biotic Sage, I doubt the expected path involved us claiming their reproduction facility where their slaves were creating one of them.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I don't think I've ever seen so much concentrated Soronnar.

It's...not nearly as entertaining as I'd thought it would be.

Ah well I'm sure it will pick up eventually.

Till then; Keep at it Soronnar! You know you can never ever under any circumstances be wrong and you stick by that!

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
What would you have them do?

I would have liked if they had moved it to another spot that isn't a massive health hazard, actually done something about the indoctrination instead of just throwing themselves at it and hope it'll go away and checked the Reaper IFF for potential attack programs before removing it and putting it on a box in the middle of the Reaper. 

That's just my thoughts, though.

You assume that they had the time to move it, that is was even possible to move it (the reapers mass effect fields were up, keeping it from falling)

You also assume finding and anlyzing the reaper IFF is easy. We're taking about a small piece of equipment, the size of a graphics card, located somewhere inside a 2km long warship. Which is full of other similar pieces of quipment.
The first step at all is identifiying the reaper IFF. You have to go trough all the various similar pieces, and try to deduce their purpose, then find a way to extract it wihout damaging it. And all of this is alien tech.

The job is exceptionally complicated. It's a wonder the Cerberus team even managed to find the damn thing.


It's like me placing you inside a 2km big super-computer...everything manufactured in chinese (or better yet, wiht no labels of any kins) and telling you to find a tz-12 separator...
Without you knowing how it looks like or what any of the other peices in the computer do...and all the while hearing voiced in your head nad loosing your mind.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 11 décembre 2011 - 11:46 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
What would you have them do?

I would have liked if they had moved it to another spot that isn't a massive health hazard, actually done something about the indoctrination instead of just throwing themselves at it and hope it'll go away and checked the Reaper IFF for potential attack programs before removing it and putting it on a box in the middle of the Reaper. 

That's just my thoughts, though.

The job is exceptionally complicated. It's a wonder the Cerberus team even managed to find the damn thing.

Yes I was truly amazed they managed to find the IFF, I made sure to give a "Thanks" to all the husks I slaughtered.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 11 décembre 2011 - 11:46 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
I guess moving a Reaper is difficult. It may have been their plan to do that actually, but they failed.

I don't know. If people can move asteroids that are larger than mass relays, one would think that they'd be able to move a Reaper. 

That repaer has it's own ME field keeping it in place. And we know reaper ME fields are stronger thany anything any of the races has. So how exactly would you move it?

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

...Soronnar you are aware that the various people you are arguing with have been gone for hours right?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Personally, I wonder what people would have done if TIM tried reverse psychology and told Shepard to blow it up for the soul of the species.

If he had told me the alternative, I'd still blow it up.

I'd rather have a neutral party come in, gather the data from the base and then give it to me so I can decide who would have it, instead of just giving it to TIM with no guarantees that anything useful will end up in my hands.

Ego much. You're a worse control freak than TIM.

Insted of worring if tech ends up in YOUR hands, you should be worring that it ends up in SOEMONE (of the current galactic cycle) hands

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

And this is why you can't believe people just on what they say.

Unless they have names like 'the illusive man' and work for illegal black ops called 'Cerberus'.

And this is why actions speak louder than words.
And Cerberus track record speaks volumes - they are commited to fighting the reapers.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

...I'll take that as a "no".

[Biotic Sage]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Biotic Sage, I doubt the expected path involved us claiming their reproduction facility where their slaves were creating one of them.

Agreed.  And of course I am usually of the mind that more knowledge of something is always a good thing.  I make the rare exception in the case of the Reapers because of what the Reapers are (or what most hypothesize them to be): the inevitable eventuality of synthetic-human fusion and the replacing of the "humanity" of life with soulless, calculating algorithms.  In this rare exception, I see that we need to understand WHAT the Reapers are and how they came to be, but as for recreating their process of Reaperizing races, I fail to see how that is useful for the goal that we should be trying to accomplish: defeating the bastards.  Using their weapons against them is fine with me, but chances are that a race who has such weapons also has defenses for such weapons, so I just felt the base was more harm than good.  I can totally see both sides though.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Nope. I say again - you judgment is flawed.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.  I don't consider a project that kills almost everyone involved and manages only a few half salvagable results to be a success.

You can use your own difinition of words, but that is pointless. What you consider to be a sucess is irrelevant. The real definition is the only one that matters.

Were mission objectives reached: Yes/No.

And you'll be faced wiht indoctrinatio EITHER WAY.
You will have to deal with the reapers. That is unavoidable. You can try to do something about it NOW, or later, when the reapers are already attacking and reaping - and indoctrination will be a FAR bigger problem then.

It's a gamble one has to be a moron to NOT take.

Your missing the point entirely.  It is a gamble either way.  Your gambling that it won't blow up in your face and make things worse.  I'm gambling that it won't provide results that would meaningfully shift the balance and that if there were Cerberus would not distribute them to the wider galaxy, making their impact negligable.  On the subject of indoctrination, having indoctrinated agents firing their guns at you sooner rather than later does not solve the problem.  You're assuming there is a solution besides a bullet to the head to begin with.

There's a difference bwtween gambling on 50:50 odds and 1:1000 odds.

You're gambling that it won't provide results - which is highly unlikely (to put it mildly) and not backed up by anything.
I'm "gambling" that is will provide resutls - which a highly likely and expected outcome. Cerberus taking over the galaxy is not a possibel outcome.

As far as indoctrinatio ngoes - you'll be faaced with it either way. Better to try and study it now. Having indoctrinated agents fireing their guns at ouy NOW is better then they doing it LATER once the reapers arrive. Not only can you studyindoctrination better (and have mroe time to do it), but the whole galaxy can focus on those indoctrinated - once the reapers arrive that will not be possible. You'll have a war on 2 fronts.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather try to get rid of 1 of thsoe fronts before the second opens.

I'm not saying saving the base is the wrong decision, I'm only pointing out that destroying it is quite valid.  I'm not sure why you find that unacceptable.

Because it's not.,

You might as well ask me to accept earth being 6000 years old is valid and logical.

Can they open it to vacuum completley? Don't people have sealed suits and armors?
Also, of what use  would a repaer factory be to them once they arrive?

First of all, it would take quite some time to build a new reaper - all credible resistance could very well be crushed long before it's complete - and secondly, the'll have millions of indoctrinated slaves. They don't neeed the base.

I have yet to see a Cerberus scientist in a vaccuum sealable suit.  According to Vigil, the Reaper conquest lasted centuries and outright resistance was only crushed so quickly because of the Citadel Relay.  The Human Reaper seemed fairly far along after two years, and I'm guessing the Reapers themselves would be able to manage much larger shipments to speed the process.

Vac suits are common enough there. We alos see cerberus trooper in sealed suits. For crying out loud - Miranda and Jack can survive in vacuum in theri "suits".

As for the conquest - go back to the argument of destruction vs. extermination. Destroying all credible resistance can be done fact. Complete extermination take a lot longer - but only because it's a very long, very tedious MOP-UP operation. The fate of the galxy will be decided in the first few months/years.

And you still didn't answer the question - reapers come in the thousands. They'll have billions of troops/workforce.
Why do they need the base? What role dos it play in the war?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

I don't think I've ever seen so much concentrated Soronnar.

It's...not nearly as entertaining as I'd thought it would be.

I'm not here to entertain you Failcake.

Besides, I was away for more than an entire day..I respond to posts as I read them. Not my damn fault this thread moves so damn fast.

Ah well I'm sure it will pick up eventually.

Till then; Keep at it Soronnar! You know you can never ever under any circumstances be wrong and you stick by that!

I can be wrong, but not in this specific thread.
Against such poor arguments it's easy to be right. Winning in this thread is as much as an acomplishment as picking my nose.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 11 décembre 2011 - 12:42 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...




I'm not here to entertain you Failcake.

Lotion dear please use better insults.

It demeans us both when you can't come up with anything better than "Failcake".

[Biotic Sage]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I can be wrong, but not in this specific thread.
Against such poor arguments it's easy to be right. Winning in this thread is as much as an acomplishment as picking my nose.

Lotion, honest question: have you ever actually conceded a point in a real honest to god discussion?