1667 réponses à ce sujet

[Seboist]

Nightwriter wrote...

Seboist wrote...

If it was up to me I would done three choices involving the Rachni Queen that would be centered on who Shepard wanted to align herself with.

Pro-Rachni -> Let the Queen go

Pro-Council-> Keep the Queen locked up and ship her to them.

Pro-Krogan-> Kill the Queen

What? But then we couldn't have had DRAMATIC MORAL CHOICE.

Next you'll tell me you think we ought to have had the option to question Veetor more thoroughly with Tali in the room, then send him back to the Migrant Fleet.

Get out of here with your reasonable solutions.

If only CD Projekt Red developed ME.....

[AlexXIV]

Considering how far we got with 'nothing' I think we may just be able to beat the Reapers with 'nothing'. Stopped Sovereign with 'nothing', captured the CB with 'nothing'. I for one am going to do just that, and nobody is going to stop me. And since all the base-keepers will have 'everything' I am sure they will be doing just as well. Ah sarcasm I love you, you make me laugh so much on this board.

[Heimdall]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]Lord Aesir wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Nope. I say again - you judgment is flawed.[/quote]
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.  I don't consider a project that kills almost everyone involved and manages only a few half salvagable results to be a success.[/quote]

You can use your own difinition of words, but that is pointless. What you consider to be a sucess is irrelevant. The real definition is the only one that matters.

Were mission objectives reached: Yes/No.[/quote]As you wish: NO

Pragia: all test subjects were lost and the primary test subject escaped and killed all the researchers.  At best, they managed to salvage some of their data. 

Overlord:  They created an intelligence that could control the geth, but it was homocidally insane and unusable.  They failed to create an intelligence that could manipulate the geth to their advantage, a failure any way you look at it.

Grayson: Nobody could every could ever call this a success.  Even th Illusive man believed that.

Rachni: Quickly were beyond Cerberus' ability to control, a failure.

I could go on...

[quote][quote][quote]
And you'll be faced wiht indoctrinatio EITHER WAY.
You will have to deal with the reapers. That is unavoidable. You can try to do something about it NOW, or later, when the reapers are already attacking and reaping - and indoctrination will be a FAR bigger problem then.

It's a gamble one has to be a moron to NOT take.[/quote]

Your missing the point entirely.  It is a gamble either way.  Your gambling that it won't blow up in your face and make things worse.  I'm gambling that it won't provide results that would meaningfully shift the balance and that if there were Cerberus would not distribute them to the wider galaxy, making their impact negligable.  On the subject of indoctrination, having indoctrinated agents firing their guns at you sooner rather than later does not solve the problem.  You're assuming there is a solution besides a bullet to the head to begin with.[/quote]

There's a difference bwtween gambling on 50:50 odds and 1:1000 odds.

You're gambling that it won't provide results - which is highly unlikely (to put it mildly) and not backed up by anything.
I'm "gambling" that is will provide resutls - which a highly likely and expected outcome. Cerberus taking over the galaxy is not a possibel outcome.

As far as indoctrinatio ngoes - you'll be faaced with it either way. Better to try and study it now. Having indoctrinated agents fireing their guns at ouy NOW is better then they doing it LATER once the reapers arrive. Not only can you studyindoctrination better (and have mroe time to do it), but the whole galaxy can focus on those indoctrinated - once the reapers arrive that will not be possible. You'll have a war on 2 fronts.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather try to get rid of 1 of thsoe fronts before the second opens.[/quote]You actually believe all this?  You really believe it is likely they can reverse engineer alien technology and find game changing results and it is not just likely but overwhelmingly so?  No, if anything the gamble would be in the opposite direction.  It is a 50-50 gamble at best, I'm afraid, the liklihood that the Collector base would produce tangible game changing results in the hand full of months before the Reapers arrive just isn't there.  Stop pulling these self suiting odds out of the air.

I never mentioned Cerberus taking over the galaxy was a possible outcome, did I?

I'm gambling that whatever results Cerberus creates will be coopted by indoctrinated agents and used to attack the galacy.

I'm gambling that there wouldn't be any game changing advances and that Cerberus would not distribute any usable advantages to enough of the galaxy to make it a game changer.

I'm gambling that the base will indoctrinate those sent to it, which would result only in pointless death (Saren studied indoctrination too, he made absolutely no useful advances.  I see absolutely no reason Cerberus is more likely to find anything.)

Each of these alone is at least as likely as you're gamble that Cerberus can study Reaper technology and get away scot free.  The likelihood of at least one of these occuring certainly trumps that of the idea that Cerberus can produce game changing results in a matter of months without any negative consequences.

Dealing with the indoctrinated now serves no purpose.  It only gets many people killed that might have fought the Reapers if you hadn't decided to gamble with their lives.  The Reapers will still come and indoctrinate legions to their service.  The only difference being that you decided to give them an outpost with a direct link to Omega.

[quote][quote]
I'm not saying saving the base is the wrong decision, I'm only pointing out that destroying it is quite valid.  I'm not sure why you find that unacceptable.[/quote]

Because it's not.,

You might as well ask me to accept earth being 6000 years old is valid and logical.[/quote]What you're doing is rejecting my idea on principle despite being unable to come up with any evidence that makes keeping the base without risk.


[quote][quote][quote]
Can they open it to vacuum completley? Don't people have sealed suits and armors?
Also, of what use  would a repaer factory be to them once they arrive?

First of all, it would take quite some time to build a new reaper - all credible resistance could very well be crushed long before it's complete - and secondly, the'll have millions of indoctrinated slaves. They don't neeed the base.

[/quote]I have yet to see a Cerberus scientist in a vaccuum sealable suit.  According to Vigil, the Reaper conquest lasted centuries and outright resistance was only crushed so quickly because of the Citadel Relay.  The Human Reaper seemed fairly far along after two years, and I'm guessing the Reapers themselves would be able to manage much larger shipments to speed the process.[/quote]

Vac suits are common enough there. We alos see cerberus trooper in sealed suits. For crying out loud - Miranda and Jack can survive in vacuum in theri "suits".

As for the conquest - go back to the argument of destruction vs. extermination. Destroying all credible resistance can be done fact. Complete extermination take a lot longer - but only because it's a very long, very tedious MOP-UP operation. The fate of the galxy will be decided in the first few months/years.

And you still didn't answer the question - reapers come in the thousands. They'll have billions of troops/workforce.
Why do they need the base? What role dos it play in the war?
[/quote]  Stop derailing the argument, I've explained the risks of the base and ther at the very least equal to the likelihood of the benefits.  What role the base plays in the war has never been part of my primary point.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 11 décembre 2011 - 02:01 .

[Xilizhra]

Seboist wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Seboist wrote...

If it was up to me I would done three choices involving the Rachni Queen that would be centered on who Shepard wanted to align herself with.

Pro-Rachni -> Let the Queen go

Pro-Council-> Keep the Queen locked up and ship her to them.

Pro-Krogan-> Kill the Queen

What? But then we couldn't have had DRAMATIC MORAL CHOICE.

Next you'll tell me you think we ought to have had the option to question Veetor more thoroughly with Tali in the room, then send him back to the Migrant Fleet.

Get out of here with your reasonable solutions.

If only CD Projekt Red developed ME.....

Yes, we might have had a set male unlikeable protagonist to suck the joy out of the game.

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Considering how far we got with 'nothing' I think we may just be able to beat the Reapers with 'nothing'.

You are either meta-gaming or you are superstituous.

So far you have not beaten the Reapers. You killed one Reaper and killed a few minions. Neither of those compares to the full might of the Reaper armada.

Remember, that one Reaper ripped an entire fleet to shreds and the minions were a match for the entire Systems Alliance.

With the help of the Geth. And whether they were a match back then isn't as imporant as if they are now. I don't say there wouldn't be a point in keeping the base. What I find funny is how you people sometimes undermine your own valid points by exaggerating so much. I mean I am sorry, we have nothing? Maybe you have nothing, but I have Shepard, I have the Normandy and I have the best crew the galaxy has to offer. Maybe it's not enough. But to beat the Reapers just to turn into Reapers does sound contra-productive to me.

You see using tech I know next to nothing about against those who created it and know everything about never sounded much like a plan for me. Maybe our own tech is rather 'primitive' compared to the Reaper's but at least we know what we have and know what we can do with it. And we have proven we can do 'something', which is more than 'nothing' in my book. I don't believe in this 'bigger is better' ideology. If we ever want to have a chance against the Reapers we need to find their weak spot. We need to go a way they don't suspect us to go. A surprise. Just doing what they would also have done, as in trying to use their own tech against them, makes us predictable.

I see myself going against the Reapers in all-reaper gear and 'whack' indoctrinated. I have said it before, we don't have the time to research Reaper tech properly, and if they are half-smart they already have a plan or means to defend against their own tech. Especially considering they have a habit of leaving dead Reapers hovering in space when they retreat after wiping the galaxy. Doesn't look to me as if they are overly concerned about people finding them.

[AlexXIV]

Xilizhra wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Seboist wrote...

If it was up to me I would done three choices involving the Rachni Queen that would be centered on who Shepard wanted to align herself with.

Pro-Rachni -> Let the Queen go

Pro-Council-> Keep the Queen locked up and ship her to them.

Pro-Krogan-> Kill the Queen

What? But then we couldn't have had DRAMATIC MORAL CHOICE.

Next you'll tell me you think we ought to have had the option to question Veetor more thoroughly with Tali in the room, then send him back to the Migrant Fleet.

Get out of here with your reasonable solutions.

If only CD Projekt Red developed ME.....

Yes, we might have had a set male unlikeable protagonist to suck the joy out of the game.

But on the pro side we would have better sex scenes.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Xilizhra wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Seboist wrote...

If it was up to me I would done three choices involving the Rachni Queen that would be centered on who Shepard wanted to align herself with.

Pro-Rachni -> Let the Queen go

Pro-Council-> Keep the Queen locked up and ship her to them.

Pro-Krogan-> Kill the Queen

What? But then we couldn't have had DRAMATIC MORAL CHOICE.

Next you'll tell me you think we ought to have had the option to question Veetor more thoroughly with Tali in the room, then send him back to the Migrant Fleet.

Get out of here with your reasonable solutions.

If only CD Projekt Red developed ME.....

Yes, we might have had a set male unlikeable protagonist to suck the joy out of the game.

Don't forget lots of digital sex...

Which would ****** off the FOX types...

Almost worth it just because of that.

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

With the help of the Geth.

No. The 5th fleet was being torn apart by Sovereign all on its own. That is quite telling.

AlexXIV wrote...

I mean I am sorry, we have nothing? Maybe you have nothing, but I have Shepard, I have the Normandy and I have the best crew the galaxy has to offer.

LMAO!

Unproductive and wrong as ever. I forgot Sovereign recruited the Geth for fun, not because they were useful.

And as we can see in vids like this, no Geth to be seen. Only Sovereign. Cerberus eyeglasses narrow the view as I see.

[AlexXIV]

wiggles89 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Yes, we might have had a set male unlikeable protagonist to suck the joy out of the game.

At least Geralt has character development and is intelligent, unlike Shepard.

Geralt has character development? Can you give me an example because I seem to have completely missed that.

[Ieldra]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
Biotic Sage, I doubt the expected path involved us claiming their reproduction facility where their slaves were creating one of them.

Agreed.  And of course I am usually of the mind that more knowledge of something is always a good thing.  I make the rare exception in the case of the Reapers because of what the Reapers are (or what most hypothesize them to be): the inevitable eventuality of synthetic-human fusion and the replacing of the "humanity" of life with soulless, calculating algorithms.

The problem with this is the assumption that the mental processes of organic beings are anything else but algorithms. That they use a neural network justs makes them a litte more flexible, and that they use an *organic* neural network makes no difference at all. In the end, the only difference between synthetic life and organic life is that the former can't come into existence on its own.

The synthetic/organic fusion you speak of presents no problem at all unless it's forced on us and replaces traits we don't want to be replaced. If we have control of the technology, we have the choice. If you say we shouldn't use such technology, even if we don't force anyone, then you're stating a simple preference instead of an argument, possibly based on the notion that organic life is inherently untouchable, sacred or whatever, and that we should not have complete control of our existence.

In this rare exception, I see that we need to understand WHAT the Reapers are and how they came to be, but as for recreating their process of Reaperizing races, I fail to see how that is useful for the goal that we should be trying to accomplish: defeating the bastards.  Using their weapons against them is fine with me, but chances are that a race who has such weapons also has defenses for such weapons, so I just felt the base was more harm than good.  I can totally see both sides though.

I agree that we wouldn't need to know about the Reaperizing process. The problem with this is that you can't single out a specific application of a technology you do not yet understand. You keep the base, you have an opportunity to study everything else, you destroy it, *all* of the knowledge contained therein is destroyed.

What I'd want to get from the base is not just the Reapers' weapons, but information about their structure in order to find points where they can be attacked. I'd also want to know the secret of their insurmountable shields, the way they generate the power they need and some other basic stuff which has nothing to do with the Reaperizing process as such. I want to understand the Reaperizing process as well, for it appears to utilize aspects of organic life we do not know. Thus, understanding how the process works makes us better understand ourselves.

And, in the end, destroying the stuff only delays re-díscovery, once you know these things are possible.

All this means that Reaper technology and its applications as such should not be a primary factor for the decision. Not if you're pragmatic about it and rule out metaphysical concepts like "the soul of our species". Then the problem of what Cerberus will do with the base and the question of whether or not they'll be able to handle it becomes the primary concern. And then, I think, given the scope of the Reaper threat, the possible benefits of keeping the base outweigh the moral considerations of giving the base to TIM, even assuming that he will indeed commit atrocities with it.

Of course, given the setup of ME3, Paragons are vindicated, for the scenario uses - or appears to use - the only loophole left: destroying the base is the better option if and only if keeping it will help the Reapers more than help the anti-Reaper alliance. Which, given the information we have at the end of ME2, seems like a very low-probability scenario. Opinions on that vary, of course, but the likelihood of that remains the single element on which a pragmatic decision about what to do with the base can be made. Anything else is either based on metaphysics or putting morality before expediency at the possible cost of all life in the galaxy,

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 décembre 2011 - 02:27 .

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

"Sovereign's too strong! We have to pull back!"

And? Am I supposed to post ME1 quotes now too?

Sovereign wasn't alone, he was with a Geth Fleet. And still got beaten. Either he was incredibly dumb or not as strong as you say. Because honestly, if what you say is true, how could he fail?

[AlexXIV]

wiggles89 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

wiggles89 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Yes, we might have had a set male unlikeable protagonist to suck the joy out of the game.

At least Geralt has character development and is intelligent, unlike Shepard.

Geralt has character development? Can you give me an example because I seem to have completely missed that.

If you missed it then you evidently weren't paying attention.

And you are not going to give me examples, right?

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Lord Aesir wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You can use your own difinition of words, but that is pointless. What you consider to be a sucess is irrelevant. The real definition is the only one that matters.

Were mission objectives reached: Yes/No.[/quote]

As you wish: NO

Pragia: all test subjects were lost and the primary test subject escaped and killed all the researchers.  At best, they managed to salvage some of their data. 

Overlord:  They created an intelligence that could control the geth, but it was homocidally insane and unusable.  They failed to create an intelligence that could manipulate the geth to their advantage, a failure any way you look at it.

Grayson: Nobody could every could ever call this a success.  Even th Illusive man believed that.

Rachni: Quickly were beyond Cerberus' ability to control, a failure.

I could go on...[/quote]

No, you couldn't.



[quote]
There's a difference bwtween gambling on 50:50 odds and 1:1000 odds.

You're gambling that it won't provide results - which is highly unlikely (to put it mildly) and not backed up by anything.
I'm "gambling" that is will provide resutls - which a highly likely and expected outcome. Cerberus taking over the galaxy is not a possibel outcome.

As far as indoctrination goes - you'll be faaced with it either way. Better to try and study it now. Having indoctrinated agents fireing their guns at ouy NOW is better then they doing it LATER once the reapers arrive. Not only can you studyindoctrination better (and have mroe time to do it), but the whole galaxy can focus on those indoctrinated - once the reapers arrive that will not be possible. You'll have a war on 2 fronts.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather try to get rid of 1 of thsoe fronts before the second opens.[/quote]

You actually believe all this?  You really believe it is likely they can reverse engineer alien technology and find game changing results and it is not just likely but overwhelmingly so?  No, if anything the gamble would be in the opposite direction.  It is a 50-50 gamble at best, I'm afraid, the liklihood that the Collector base would produce tangible game changing results in the hand full of months before the Reapers arrive just isn't there.  Stop pulling these self suiting odds out of the air.[/quote]

Yes. As I said, the prothean cache boosted our tech by 200 years. What is that if no "game changing results"? Before were were no threat to any other race in Council space. Within years we became one of the strongest militaris.

Secondly, you don't know when the reapers will arrive NOT how long it would take to get something usefull out of the base. So stop talking out of your a**.
If you follow hte logic of "they could arrive tomorrow and it might no yield anything. No sense in risking it" then why try to fight them at all? If the reapers come tomorrow, you're not gonan defeat them anyway.

[quote]
I'm gambling that whatever results Cerberus creates will be coopted by indoctrinated agents and used to attack the galacy.[/quote]

BS. Doesn't matter if it's Cerberus or anyone else. Indoctrination is exactly teh same threat to anyone. And what are the chances of ALL research falling in the hands of ONLY the indoctrinated? You do relaise scientists send daily reports, do you?

[quote]
I'm gambling that there wouldn't be any game changing advances and that Cerberus would not distribute any usable advantages to enough of the galaxy to make it a game changer.[/quote]

You're gambling for total faliure of any anti-reaper effort. Defeat-ist thinking.
I'm gambling on our survival, because there's no other gamble to make that makes any sense.

If I don't find something to use agaisnt the reaper, I'm dead. Risky research is not risky when the alternative is extinction. If the reapers get another gun as the source of that research - it changes little. They alreay got 999 guns pointed at us, one more or less won't change anything.
And when they come you'll have indoctrinated sleep agents and spies turning your guns agaisnt you either way.
I'd rather have guns that I can take away from the indoctrinated and use agaisnt the reapers, then not have anything AND having to face indoctrinated.

[quote]
I'm gambling that the base will indoctrinate those sent to it, which would result only in pointless death (Saren studied indoctrination too, he made absolutely no useful advances.  I see absolutely no reason Cerberus is more likely to find anything.)[/quote]

By that logic no one should ever study indoctrination. Either we master indoctrination or we fall to it. There is no third option here.
And here's is a ** ME3 spoiler **
cerberus does find a way to f*** reapers up.


[quote]
Each of these alone is at least as likely as you're gamble that Cerberus can study Reaper technology and get away scot free.  The likelihood of at least one of these occuring certainly trumps that of the idea that Cerberus can produce game changing results in a matter of months without any negative consequences.[/quote]

No. And you have nothing to back that up with.


[quote]
Dealing with the indoctrinated now serves no purpose.  It only gets many people killed that might have fought the Reapers if you hadn't decided to gamble with their lives.  The Reapers will still come and indoctrinate legions to their service.  The only difference being that you decided to give them an outpost with a direct link to Omega.[/quote]

See above.



[quote]
[quote][quote]
I'm not saying saving the base is the wrong decision, I'm only pointing out that destroying it is quite valid.  I'm not sure why you find that unacceptable.[/quote]

Because it's not.,

You might as well ask me to accept earth being 6000 years old is valid and logical.[/quote]

What you're doing is rejecting my idea on principle despite being unable to come up with any evidence that makes keeping the base without risk.[/quote]

No, I gave your ideas thought. I put them under scrutiny and found htem to be unsupported by fact, probablity or anything else for that matter.
You provided ZERO evidence for all of your claims.




[quote]Vac suits are common enough there. We alos see cerberus trooper in sealed suits. For crying out loud - Miranda and Jack can survive in vacuum in theri "suits".

As for the conquest - go back to the argument of destruction vs. extermination. Destroying all credible resistance can be done fact. Complete extermination take a lot longer - but only because it's a very long, very tedious MOP-UP operation. The fate of the galxy will be decided in the first few months/years.

And you still didn't answer the question - reapers come in the thousands. They'll have billions of troops/workforce.
Why do they need the base? What role dos it play in the war?
[/quote] 

Stop derailing the argument, I've explained the risks of the base and ther at the very least equal to the likelihood of the benefits.  What role the base plays in the war has never been part of my primary point.
[/quote]

I'm not de-railign the argument. You seem to lose track of what youre arguing/writing.
Don't bring up point if you dont' want them answered.

And I also see you didn't actually respond to the above questions.

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

[

AlexXIV wrote...

And? Am I supposed to post ME1 quotes now too?

"Sovereign's too strong! We have to pull back!"

"Napoleon is too strong, we have to pull back!"

Looks we found new historic evidence. Napoleon didn't need his armies at all. I mean this is amusing and all, but didn't you want to make a point?

Modifié par AlexXIV, 11 décembre 2011 - 02:32 .

[AlexXIV]

wiggles89 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

And you are not going to give me examples, right?

The character development was manifest. If you didn't notice it while playing the game I hardly see how my citing examples would convince you otherwise.

And I say you don't recite them because you can't, because it didn't happen.