1667 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

Maybe I put it like this. My favorite and canon class is infitrator. Simply because I always felt that taking the Reapers head on in open battle will always fail. That's why my favorite tactic is always to fight the enemy from inside, not outside. And that's why I hope their critical weakness is found somewhere inside. So basically what do I need? I need a way inside a Reaper, or Reaper base. I don't need a Reaper to fight a Reaper. I need to get to it's heart and then blow it up. And I'd do it the same way as the first 2 times. But to find a way in of course you first need to get close. There is no way I can now say how it is going to work. As Shepard didn't know what the conduit was before he found out. As Shepard didn't know what awaited him/her through the mu relay. You get close, you look for an opening, you get in, you disable it. That's what infiltrators do. The trick is to not even be seen before it is to late. 'The last thing you will never see.'

Modifié par AlexXIV, 11 décembre 2011 - 03:39 .

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Shep's getting lucky alot of times. So without luck ME1 would have ended differently, so I don't know how to answer this.

"I don't know how to answer this." = Yeah I am contradicting myself in a vain attempt to defend myself against your attacks upon my argument and I'm failing horribly.

If you're smart you'll leave the thread before you make a bigger fool of yourself. That or you'll just admit that your argument has no basis or defense in stark contrast to mine which is based on established precedent.

I don't even know what you want from me because I don't see what you are getting at. Also, to not make a fool of myself it is too late because everyone in this thread already did that. And if you don't see that then maybe you should think about that for a bit. If I was botherd to look like a fool I would not be posting here or even in this forum. Luckily we are in the internet and thus anonymous.

[Heimdall]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]Lord Aesir wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You can use your own difinition of words, but that is pointless. What you consider to be a sucess is irrelevant. The real definition is the only one that matters.

Were mission objectives reached: Yes/No.[/quote]

As you wish: NO

Pragia: all test subjects were lost and the primary test subject escaped and killed all the researchers.  At best, they managed to salvage some of their data. 

Overlord:  They created an intelligence that could control the geth, but it was homocidally insane and unusable.  They failed to create an intelligence that could manipulate the geth to their advantage, a failure any way you look at it.

Grayson: Nobody could every could ever call this a success.  Even th Illusive man believed that.

Rachni: Quickly were beyond Cerberus' ability to control, a failure.

I could go on...[/quote]

No, you couldn't.[/quote]*sigh*

Ascension: Test subject lost.  I would argue that the entire project was worthless once they discovered her condition, which the drugs agravated anyway.  No success here.  Possibly one of Cerberus' most total failures yet.

Disabled Reaper:  All staff lost and failure to obtain the IFF.

After that I'm afraid there aren't any programs besides Lazarus to even talk about, and that isn't even a research project.  So please enlighten me as to the wide range of Cerberus' successes.  I've aptly demonstrated that they have an impressive ability to fail in all their research projects.

[quote][quote][quote]
There's a difference bwtween gambling on 50:50 odds and 1:1000 odds.

You're gambling that it won't provide results - which is highly unlikely (to put it mildly) and not backed up by anything.
I'm "gambling" that is will provide resutls - which a highly likely and expected outcome. Cerberus taking over the galaxy is not a possibel outcome.

As far as indoctrination goes - you'll be faaced with it either way. Better to try and study it now. Having indoctrinated agents fireing their guns at ouy NOW is better then they doing it LATER once the reapers arrive. Not only can you studyindoctrination better (and have mroe time to do it), but the whole galaxy can focus on those indoctrinated - once the reapers arrive that will not be possible. You'll have a war on 2 fronts.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather try to get rid of 1 of thsoe fronts before the second opens.[/quote]

You actually believe all this?  You really believe it is likely they can reverse engineer alien technology and find game changing results and it is not just likely but overwhelmingly so?  No, if anything the gamble would be in the opposite direction.  It is a 50-50 gamble at best, I'm afraid, the liklihood that the Collector base would produce tangible game changing results in the hand full of months before the Reapers arrive just isn't there.  Stop pulling these self suiting odds out of the air.[/quote]

Yes. As I said, the prothean cache boosted our tech by 200 years. What is that if no "game changing results"? Before were were no threat to any other race in Council space. Within years we became one of the strongest militaris.

Secondly, you don't know when the reapers will arrive NOT how long it would take to get something usefull out of the base. So stop talking out of your a**.
If you follow hte logic of "they could arrive tomorrow and it might no yield anything. No sense in risking it" then why try to fight them at all? If the reapers come tomorrow, you're not gonan defeat them anyway.[/quote]  How long did it take them to achieve those results?  Theres indication the Prothean cache was studied long before it was officiall "discovered".  Either way it still took years.  It took the Turians two years to derive the Thanix cannon from Sovereign's wreckage.  Actually humans would have been crushed by the Turians if the war had continued.  It took decades for humans to reach that status.  Decades we don't have.  Months is all you get.

Arrival can be done before the suicide mission, so yes Shepard can know when the Reapers are coming.  That's how long they have to study the base.  After that I think you'd be foolish not to realize one of the first thing the Reapers would do would be to clear it of troublesome researchers.  I don't think it could help and could possibly hurt.

[quote][quote]
I'm gambling that whatever results Cerberus creates will be coopted by indoctrinated agents and used to attack the galacy.[/quote]

BS. Doesn't matter if it's Cerberus or anyone else. Indoctrination is exactly teh same threat to anyone. And what are the chances of ALL research falling in the hands of ONLY the indoctrinated? You do relaise scientists send daily reports, do you?[/quote]  So did Kenson, yet Hacket didn't even know there was a Reaper artifact involved.  The indoctrinated are indoctrinated, why would they send reports to anyone with valuable information once the Reapers are contolling their minds?  The team on the derelict Reaper cut off contact.

[quote][quote]
I'm gambling that there wouldn't be any game changing advances and that Cerberus would not distribute any usable advantages to enough of the galaxy to make it a game changer.[/quote]

You're gambling for total faliure of any anti-reaper effort. Defeat-ist thinking.
I'm gambling on our survival, because there's no other gamble to make that makes any sense.

If I don't find something to use agaisnt the reaper, I'm dead. Risky research is not risky when the alternative is extinction. If the reapers get another gun as the source of that research - it changes little. They alreay got 999 guns pointed at us, one more or less won't change anything.
And when they come you'll have indoctrinated sleep agents and spies turning your guns agaisnt you either way.
I'd rather have guns that I can take away from the indoctrinated and use agaisnt the reapers, then not have anything AND having to face indoctrinated.[/quote]  This is not defeatist thinking, this is cautious thinking.  I nor my Shepard thinksthe base holds the key to our victory even if it is kept.  Pure insanity is taking reckless risks that in all likelihood will harm the war effort with survival as the stakes.  Risky research is still risky research when it could harm you're chances of winning a war for survival.  Once again, you are ignoring the possiblity of negative consequences to your're actions in favor of emphasizing the possibility that it could help.

[quote][quote]
I'm gambling that the base will indoctrinate those sent to it, which would result only in pointless death (Saren studied indoctrination too, he made absolutely no useful advances.  I see absolutely no reason Cerberus is more likely to find anything.)[/quote]

By that logic no one should ever study indoctrination. Either we master indoctrination or we fall to it. There is no third option here.
And here's is a ** ME3 spoiler **
cerberus does find a way to f*** reapers up.[/quote]

NO, plain and simple.  You coninually speak of this as if there is a guarantee that Cerberus will suddenly find the anwser to indoctrination.  I find that possibility so small it is not worth the lives you want to sacrifice for it.  Everything I'm talking about is about weighing risks versus possible benefit.  You're position is that all risks are worth it.  I think that type of thinking is reckless and will get a lot of people unnecessarily killed and possibly cost the war.  Victory does not lie in reckless acts of desperation.

It shows the weakness of your argument that you feel you have to bring in knowledge Shepard cannot have at the time of the decision.  I'm quite angry at you for giving me spoilers as well.  That was uncalled for.

[quote][quote]
Each of these alone is at least as likely as you're gamble that Cerberus can study Reaper technology and get away scot free.  The likelihood of at least one of these occuring certainly trumps that of the idea that Cerberus can produce game changing results in a matter of months without any negative consequences.[/quote]

No. And you have nothing to back that up with.[/quote]  Neither do you for your notions of probability, if so you have done a fantastically poor job of presenting it.


[quote][quote]
Dealing with the indoctrinated now serves no purpose.  It only gets many people killed that might have fought the Reapers if you hadn't decided to gamble with their lives.  The Reapers will still come and indoctrinate legions to their service.  The only difference being that you decided to give them an outpost with a direct link to Omega.[/quote]

See above.[/quote]I'm afraid the burden of proof is on you.  It's been said that the definition of insanity is to perform the same action and expect a different result.  This is exactly what you are proposing.



[quote]
[quote][quote][quote]
I'm not saying saving the base is the wrong decision, I'm only pointing out that destroying it is quite valid.  I'm not sure why you find that unacceptable.[/quote]

Because it's not.,

You might as well ask me to accept earth being 6000 years old is valid and logical.[/quote]

What you're doing is rejecting my idea on principle despite being unable to come up with any evidence that makes keeping the base without risk.[/quote]

No, I gave your ideas thought. I put them under scrutiny and found htem to be unsupported by fact, probablity or anything else for that matter.
You provided ZERO evidence for all of your claims.[/quote]  I've done the same for yours and found them equally unfounded.  Do you honestly believe that this can have a negative affect on the war effort?

I've already shown you that my notion for Cerberus' research project success rate is based in fact, so is the idea that the base will inoctrinate it's occupants, so is the idea that Cerberus will get no more results in trying to study indoctrination than Saren did, given their own records and I'm not sure how they'd even do it without getting indoctrinated themselves.

[quote][quote][quote]Vac suits are common enough there. We alos see cerberus trooper in sealed suits. For crying out loud - Miranda and Jack can survive in vacuum in theri "suits".

As for the conquest - go back to the argument of destruction vs. extermination. Destroying all credible resistance can be done fact. Complete extermination take a lot longer - but only because it's a very long, very tedious MOP-UP operation. The fate of the galxy will be decided in the first few months/years.

And you still didn't answer the question - reapers come in the thousands. They'll have billions of troops/workforce.
Why do they need the base? What role dos it play in the war?
[/quote] 

Stop derailing the argument, I've explained the risks of the base and ther at the very least equal to the likelihood of the benefits.  What role the base plays in the war has never been part of my primary point.
[/quote]

I'm not de-railign the argument. You seem to lose track of what youre arguing/writing.
Don't bring up point if you dont' want them answered.

And I also see you didn't actually respond to the above questions.

[/quote][/quote]  Because it is irrelevant to the point of my argument.  I apologize if you've had difficulty understanding what my arguments are, but I have never argued that the base would have a huge affect on the war.  In fact, it is my belief that the effects of the base, positive or negative, would be minimal.  I also think that in a war of extinction every factor, no matter how small, is important.  Thus I do not believe the likelihood of the gains is worth possibly having an enemy outpost in our backyard.

I understand you're position for keeping the base and accept the possibility that the base can provide aid.  I think it's up to the individual Shepard to weigh whether they think the possible reprocussions are worth the possible payoff.  Clearly we chose differently, that doesn't mean I think your choice was wrong.

I think our reactions to a war with such consequences should be extreme caution and a careful weighing of possibility due to the stakes involved.  You seem to believe the opposite.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 11 décembre 2011 - 03:49 .

[Heimdall]

I have a busy schedule today so I won't be able to respond to your next post for a while, Lotion.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Lord Aesir wrote...
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You can use your own difinition of words, but that is pointless. What you consider to be a sucess is irrelevant. The real definition is the only one that matters.

Were mission objectives reached: Yes/No.[/quote]

As you wish: NO
[/quote]

Yes.

Lazarus was a sucess - objective was to revive Sheparad. Complete sucess.

Overload brought new understanding about the Geth, and proved they can be controlled. Cerberus had more sucess in one year than all the quarians in centuries.
Not letting David sleep was a redicolously stupid move BY A ROUGE SCIENTIST, but again, Geth can be controlled.

Disabled Reaper - staff found, identified and extracted the IFF. Mission sucesfull. Sadly, Shepard destroyed the reaper before the rest could be studied.


Sapra once made a far longer and exhaustive list than this. But Cerberus have shown to be no less competent than enyone else out there.



[quote][quote]
Yes. As I said, the prothean cache boosted our tech by 200 years. What is that if no "game changing results"? Before were were no threat to any other race in Council space. Within years we became one of the strongest militaris.

Secondly, you don't know when the reapers will arrive NOT how long it would take to get something usefull out of the base. So stop talking out of your a**.
If you follow hte logic of "they could arrive tomorrow and it might no yield anything. No sense in risking it" then why try to fight them at all? If the reapers come tomorrow, you're not gonan defeat them anyway.[/quote] 

How long did it take them to achieve those results?  Theres indication the Prothean cache was studied long before it was officiall "discovered".  Either way it still took years.  It took the Turians two years to derive the Thanix cannon from Sovereign's wreckage.  Actually humans would have been crushed by the Turians if the war had continued.  It took decades for humans to reach that status.  Decades we don't have.  Months is all you get.[/quote]

Irrelevant. You don't nkow when the reapers will arrive. Neither does Sheaprd. Neither do you know how long till something usefull comes out. You just don't.
You don't know if we have days, weeks, months or years.
You don't know if we will have a breaktrough in days, weeks, months or years.

What we DO know is htat researhc WILL yield results. This isn't some esoteric research where you spend years and millions researching onyl to find out the theory was false and the research ins't viable. Reper tech is proven. We know it works. We've seen it work.
The question isn't if we will get something, the question is when.


[quote]
Arrival can be done before the suicide mission, so yes Shepard can know when the Reapers are coming.  That's how long they have to study the base.  After that I think you'd be foolish not to realize one of the first thing the Reapers would do would be to clear it of troublesome researchers.  I don't think it could help and could possibly hurt.[/quote]

Arrival can be done that way (as all DLC's cna be done at any time), but canonicly it takes place after.

And even a few months of research can make a huge difference, so even if you are correct that we only have months, your premise is still wrong.



[quote][quote]
BS. Doesn't matter if it's Cerberus or anyone else. Indoctrination is exactly teh same threat to anyone. And what are the chances of ALL research falling in the hands of ONLY the indoctrinated? You do relaise scientists send daily reports, do you?[/quote] 
So did Kenson, yet Hacket didn't even know there was a Reaper artifact involved.  The indoctrinated are indoctrinated, why would they send reports to anyone with valuable information once the Reapers are contolling their minds?  The team on the derelict Reaper cut off contact.[/quote]

You don't get indoctrinated immediately. It takes time. Days, weeks.
So reports would go trough, at least initially. As seen by the derelict reaper crew, they did make logs, they did send reports. Research is documented and backed up - that is standard procedure.



[quote][quote]
You're gambling for total faliure of any anti-reaper effort. Defeat-ist thinking.
I'm gambling on our survival, because there's no other gamble to make that makes any sense.

If I don't find something to use agaisnt the reaper, I'm dead. Risky research is not risky when the alternative is extinction. If the reapers get another gun as the source of that research - it changes little. They alreay got 999 guns pointed at us, one more or less won't change anything.
And when they come you'll have indoctrinated sleep agents and spies turning your guns agaisnt you either way.
I'd rather have guns that I can take away from the indoctrinated and use agaisnt the reapers, then not have anything AND having to face indoctrinated.[/quote] 

This is not defeatist thinking, this is cautious thinking.  I nor my Shepard thinksthe base holds the key to our victory even if it is kept.  Pure insanity is taking reckless risks that in all likelihood will harm the war effort with survival as the stakes.  Risky research is still risky research when it could harm you're chances of winning a war for survival.  Once again, you are ignoring the possiblity of negative consequences to your're actions in favor of emphasizing the possibility that it could help.[/quote]

No, that defeteist thinking. Cause you are not even trying to win out of sheer fear. Your caution has rendered you inert.

Your chances of winign the war are zero. It is insanity to think the base will harm your chances and it should be destroyed.

You are not only ignoring the obvious and clear benefits, but are also inflating the neagative consequences to redicolous and unlikely/impossible proprtions.
You really have no solid grounds for your theories and claims.


[quote][quote]
By that logic no one should ever study indoctrination. Either we master indoctrination or we fall to it. There is no third option here.
[/quote]

NO, plain and simple.  You coninually speak of this as if there is a guarantee that Cerberus will suddenly find the anwser to indoctrination.  I find that possibility so small it is not worth the lives you want to sacrifice for it.  Everything I'm talking about is about weighing risks versus possible benefit.  You're position is that all risks are worth it.  I think that type of thinking is reckless and will get a lot of people unnecessarily killed and possibly cost the war.  Victory does not like in reckless acts of desperation.[/quote]

Yes. The knowledge is there. The technology is ther and working. Facts. Undeniable facts.
There is no guarantee that tehy will find the answers in time, but the answers ARE there.

Your wighting of risk/benefit is attrocious and hillarious. you'd rather risk the whole galaxy than a few scientists?
Yes, risks are worth it. any risks is worth it when the alternative is extinction.

You're already loosing the war.

I keep askign oyu - what's your plan. what's your alternative? How do you plan to stop the reaper?
I demand you answer that. If you cannot provide something more tangible than the CB, then you are reklessly sacrifcing the entire galaxy.


[quote]
It shows the weakness of your argument that you feel you have to bring in knowledge Shepard cannot have at the time of the decision.  I'm quite angry at you for giving me spoilers as well.  That was uncalled for.[/quote]

The spoiler was hidden and marked. You didn't have to highlight it.
Be angry with yourself.
But hey, that would be expecting you to be rational.



[quote][quote]
No. And you have nothing to back that up with.[/quote] 

Neither do you for your notions of probability, if so you have done a fantastically poor job of presenting it.[/quote]

I have done a far better job than you.
I supported everything with fact, logic and common sense. You on the other hand have provided nothing but fantastical scenarios and peddled them like facts.


[quote]
I'm afraid the burden of proof is on you.  It's been said that the definition of insanity is to perform the same action and expect a different result.  This is exactly what you are proposing.[/quote]

no, I'm not. The burden of proof is on you, since you are the one who wants to destroy possible means to save the galaxy.
I'm going after a safe bet - the base is isolated wiht only one way in or out. If something goes wrong, I can always destroy it later and/or prevent acess to it. In case I am wrong, I can do something about it.
Worst case scenario, the unwinnable war has just gotten harder.

In case you are wrong, you can do nothing.
And everoyne dies.



[quote]
I've already shown you that my notion for Cerberus' research project success rate is based in fact, so is the idea that the base will inoctrinate it's occupants, so is the idea that Cerberus will get no more results in trying to study indoctrination than Saren did, given their own records and I'm not sure how they'd even do it without getting indoctrinated themselves.[/quote]

That's not logic, that's fatalism. X faieds so Y will fail too.
You know what? The Protheans and all before failed to stop the reapers. There's a sucess rate based on fact. By your own logic, our chances are so low we shouldnt' even try.

You wan't to avoid researching the most insidious and dangerous weapon the reapers have and just storm into a war we can't even with in a convention way (WITHOUT repaers having indoctrination).

Me and Spahra both debunked those "Cerberus research always fails" drivel in multiple posts.

And even if Cerberuses chances of sucess were small, ti's STILL better than nothing - because that's exactly what you are proposing. NOTHING.

You have no idea, no plan, no strategy.



[quote]
Thus I do not believe the likelihood of the gains is worth possibly having an enemy outpost in our backyard.[/quote]

And we already established that that "enemy outpost" is irrelevant to the reaper war effort and that is in your hands at the start of the war. We also established that 1 man with a detonator can blow it up.

So what exactly is is horrible about it?




[quote]
I think our reactions to a war with such consequences should be extreme caution and a careful weighing of possibility due to the stakes involved.  You seem to believe the opposite.
[/quote]

Nope. I am carefully weighing the possibilities and am going for those that have a chance of the galaxy surviving.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 11 décembre 2011 - 05:53 .

[Heimdall]

Okay lotion, it's starting to become clear debating with you is utterly pointless. You won't listen to reason and make claims of common sense and logic that just aren't there.  I'm stil busy so I'll not bother with the quotes.

I'm winning the war. You've helped you're enemies set up a base in you're back yard that none of you're allies can attack. That's what happens when I'm right. If you think not wanting this to happen is defeatist thinking, you are welcome to do so. If you think not wanting to put lives at stake to little purpose is defeatist thinking you are welcome to do so. If you think Overlord was a success despite not achieving it's objective of producing a weapon to bring the Geth under Cerberus' control, you are welcome to do so (Traitors and rogue scientists - funny how Cerberus has so many of those). If you think the derelict Reaper project was a success despite utterly failing and requiring Shepard to pick up the pieces, you are welcome to do so.  If you think the Lazarus project or other like it have relevance despite not being a scientific research project, you are welcome to think so.  If you think the Cerberus researchers are going to come up with more results in a few months than the Turians have in two years of studying Sovereign, an actual Reaper, you are welcome to think so.

One of the things you've failed to gather from my decision process apparently: I've never considered the Collector Base capable of saving or destroying the galaxy. Neither myself nor my Shepard did. I have in fact emphasized that it is of little consequence. Having an outpost there from which the indoctrinated to launch attacks without being followed by anyone save the Normandy itself is probably manageable threat, but it is not something you want to harassing you while you're trying to deal with an entire Reaper invasion. However, my Shepard considered the likelihood of any meaningful advance in the time window available unlikely, not worth the risk of having such a disrupting influence while he tries to gather an army and not worth repeating the suicide mission to try and stop, taking him away from the frontlines at a time that he is needed most.

I understand you. You think the Base has weight in whether or not the galaxy survives. I find that unlikely. So now lets talk about proof.  This whole disagreemant seem s to lie in that you think I am refusing to save the galaxy.

You say that the base is likely to produce advances that can save the galaxy. Prove it.

You say that studying indoctrination here will be somehow different from Saren's studies, Prove it.

You say that I'm dooming the galaxy by not saving the base, which it has no chance of doing, Prove it.

You certainly give the impression that you think the galaxy will fall if there are no advances gained from the Collector base. Why?

Also, the spoilers were not hidden and did not require highlighting, they were plain as day.  Perhaps you meant to hide them, but they were not.

Anyway, I think you know the risk, some anyway.  I think we're focusing on the wrong part of the equation.  You clearly think the payoff is a lot more than I think it could ever be.  You attach a hideously disproportionate weight on results gained from studying the base without any basis that they could help.  Our chances of winning are not zero to begin with as you seem to assume.  I'm I using defeatist thinking in not assuming that?  Is not being blindingly optimistic about the base bringing good results defeatist thinking?

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 11 décembre 2011 - 09:49 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


I'm not here to entertain you Failcake.

Lotion dear please use better insults.

It demeans us both when you can't come up with anything better than "Failcake".

You're assuming I'll devote anyting more than half a second of my time to insult you.

Much better.
I knew you could do it!

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Lord Aesir wrote...
Okay lotion, it's become clear debating with you is utterly pointless. I'm stil busy so I'll be brief.

I'm winning the war. You've helped you're enemies set up a base in you're back yard that none of you're allies can attack. That's what happens when I'm right. If you think not wanting this to happen is defeatist thinking, you are welcome to do so.[/quote]

No you're not.
If you are, I'd like you to explain how.

And we already established that base doesn't really make any noticable difference to the reapers. They don't need it. They have millions of indoctrinated slaves and husks.
Also, how can they take it back if it's so easy to blow it up? If the acess is so restricted (only one way in and one narrow corridor)?

[quote]
If you think not wanting to put lives at stake to little purpose is defeatist thinking you are welcome to do so.[/quote]

Survival of everyone in the galaxy is "little purpose"?

[quote]
If you think Overlord was a success despite not achieving it's objective of producing a weapon to bring the Geth under Cerberus' control, you are welcome to do so (Traitors and rogue scientists - funny how Cerberus has so many of those). [/quote]

Partial success. It did improve Geth understanding by leaps and bounds.

[quote]
If you think the derelict Reaper project was a success despite utterly failing and requiring Shepard to pick up the pieces, you are welcome to do so.[/quote]

You mean ti was Sheppard who went around the ship, inspecting every piece of harware and determening it's purpose? The only thing Sheppard did whas pick the IFF up. It's was the Cerberus scinetists who found it, identified it, extracted it and prepared it for transport.

[quote]
If you think the Lazarus project or other like it have relevance despite not being a scientific research project, you are welcome to think so.[/quote]

So finding a way to bring someone that's been dead for months back to life in NOT research?

[quote]
If you think the Cerberus researchers are going to come up with more results in a few months than the Turians have in two years of studying Sovereign, an actual Reaper, you are welcome to think so.[/quote]

Turians studied a few broken pieces. Cerberus has a opearation base and machinery. And humans seem to be very gifted researches in the ME universe.
Not to mention you don't know how long it will take nor how much time we have, rendering your entire point utterly pointless.


[quote]
One of the things you've failed to gather from my decision process apparently: I've never considered the Collector Base capable of saving or destroying the galaxy. Neither myself nor my Shepard did.
I have in fact emphasized that it is of little consequence. Having an outpost there from which the indoctrinated to launch attacks without being followed by anyone save the Normandy itself is probably manageable threat, but it is not something you want to harassing you while you're trying to deal with an entire Reaper invasion.[/quote]

Then you are blind. And given that there is only one place in our out, and Shep has the IFF (and can thus give it to the Council/Alliance so they CAN follow Cerberus), I say it's not a big threat at all.


[quote]
However, my Shepard considered the likelihood of any meaningful advance in the time window available unlikely, not worth the risk of having such a disrupting influence while he tries to gather an army and not worth repeating the suicide mission to try and stop.[/quote]

Gathering an army that can't do jack s*** agaisnt the reapers? Big help that is going to be....
Even if there was only a 0.001% chance of the base yielding anything usefull, ti would still be worth going after it.

and b.t.w- there would be no need to repeat the SM.


[quote]
I understand you. You think the Base has weight in whether or not the galaxy survives. I find that unlikely. So now lets talk about proof.  The burden of proof lies in the positive not the negative.

You say that the base is likely to produce advances that can save the galaxy. Prove it.

You say that studying indoctrination here will be somehow different from Saren's studies, Prove it.

You say that I'm dooming the galaxy by not saving the base, which it has no chance of doing, Prove it.[/quote]

No, the proof is on you to back up unlikely/incredible claims.

I already proved the base can produce advances.
I don't need to prove anything else besides that.

And I wnat you to prove the galaxy can survive without it. The burden on proof is on YOU because it's you who want to take away a option that might ensure survival.


[quote]
You certainly give the impression that you think the galaxy will fall if there are no advances gained from the Collector base. Why?[/quote]

Because it's clear the reapers are  far too superior. It takes 2 fleets to scratch a single reaper. Meanhile, a single reaper can take out 8-9 of our ship in 5 seconds.
They are faster. More manuverable. Have better FTL and indurance. They have no targets to defend. No civilians to protect. No supply lines. This gives them tactical and strategic flexibiltiy any general would drool over.



[quote]
Anyway, I was wrong.  I think you know the risk, some anyway.  I think we're focusing on the wrong part of the equation.  You clearly think the payoff is a lot more than I think it could ever be.  You attach a hideously disproportionate weight on results gained from studying the base without any basis that they could help.  Our chances of winning are not zero to begin with as you seem to assume.  I'm I using defeatist thinking in not assuming that?
[/quote]

No, oyu're using flawed thinking.
I keep asking you to clarify. On what are you basing that? I explain from where I'm coming. I presented facts derived straight from canon material to support my claims.

now where is your basis. Show me.

I want ot know how you plan to defeat the reapers.
Either produce something that is better than the base or better than doign nothing, or GTFO.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 11 décembre 2011 - 10:25 .

[DPSSOC]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I understand you. You think the Base has weight in whether or not the galaxy survives. I find that unlikely. So now lets talk about proof.  The burden of proof lies in the positive not the negative.

You say that the base is likely to produce advances that can save the galaxy. Prove it.

You say that studying indoctrination here will be somehow different from Saren's studies, Prove it.

You say that I'm dooming the galaxy by not saving the base, which it has no chance of doing, Prove it.

No, the proof is on you to back up unlikely/incredible claims.

I already proved the base can produce advances.
I don't need to prove anything else besides that.

And I wnat you to prove the galaxy can survive without it.

Two Reapers have been beaten using conventional weapons, therefore Reapers can be defeated using conventional weapons.  Advances have been made that have proven effective against considerably advanced tech.  We already have the schematics of a Reaper (apparently) that we can study and locate any weaknesses (essentially all you'd get from the base - knowledge on the inner workings of a Reaper).

And stepping into meta-game reasoning Bioware isn't going to make it impossible to win because of one decision made in the previous game.  Also as I stated earlier the decision will be rendered pointless anyway, those of us who kept it will get an excited email from a Cerberus scientist about the progress they've made and then be informed that two days later the base went crazy and everyone is dead and all data lost.

[Labrev]

Since this thread is a cockroach, I'm back.
 
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Oh? What moronic things?
All the projects he does make perfect sense. Efficency, speed, bigget bang for hte buck - that's what Cerberus wants. And building a human reaper is neither of those things.[/quote]
 
Bang for the buck: 4 billion+ creds on Shepard when he could have recruited/trained an army. All that money a guy who has minimal long-term value and a legitimate threat to derail their cause down the line?

It was great in the short-term, they defeated the Collectors. Long-term, said army probably would have been the better alternative. They may not have all remained loyal and/or lived, but it would have been a much better gamble than putting all their chips on one man/woman. That they turned up enough evidence to convince Shepard not to part ways with them after Freedom's Progress alone was a total fluke. At least then they'd have that many more human resources than one guy who ultimately leaves them after the mission is over.
 
Not exactly what I would call "money well spent."
 


[quote]It's exactly the same. And I say Garrus/Tali/Mirana/X would do something like that. I dont' need proof, since apparenlty you don't either.[/quote]
 
No, I have a track-record with which to judge them by. It's the same reason I would not put Tali in charge of a fireteam in the suicide-mission, I've seen it go badly two different times. There's that proof you wanted. It's the same reason I wouldn't entrust the base to Cerberus, the proof is in the failed ME1 rachni experiments and cell-implosions of Teltin and Overlord (which could easily have been stopped).



[quote][quote]I never asserted that they are better/more trustworthy, just that we have a lot better idea about Cerberus is run to make a judgement call about the consequences of giving them the 'base.[/quote]
 
No we don't.[/quote]

?!? ... I think this is making me stupider.
 
First of all, YES, we do. That I have to explain this is pretty sad, but nonetheless. We've seen the inside of one cell (Lazarus, the O4-mission) and two others: Teltin, Overlord. Logs indicate that T.I.M. set them up and let the people in charge do whatever the hell they want to do. That notion is reinforced by our own cell, Shepard has free reign on the whole thing. It seems T.I.M. threatened to pull the plug on the other two. Why? He wasn't getting results from either. Overlord log: Archer another employee to inform TIM that his concerns over the lack of results is unwarranted; Teltin log: employee is concerned that TIM is getting suspicious, but he won't care what happened there if they get results. Let me spell that out for you: TIM doesn't care what's going on, just whether or not it's getting results.
 
So in other words, Cerberus MO is: precautions be damned, give me what I want when I want it, or I'll pull the plug. Unfortunately, it's not that simple. And when that reality kicks in, Cerberus cells begin cutting corners to meet deadlines, and soon enough it all goes to hell. You think TIM would learn this lesson once (Teltin). Nope, the same scenario repeats itself. But, TIM has no accountability. If he had a boss, he'd be fired for this kind of colossal failure. And I'm sure he has some successes outside the games that Cerberus-apologists will gladly bring up to defend him. IRL, you can't live on past success for that long once you start making a habit of failing, unless you're really good at BS'ing your boss into believing you'll do better next time (but most don't have the patience to put up with that crap).
 
That alone is reason enough to think they lack the responsibility to handle the base. But, if we did NOT know how Cerberus was run as you assert, would that not be more reason we should not blindly entrust them to powerful/dangerous technology? As far as you're concerned, you wouldn't care if you were handing it over to monkeys.


[quote]They didn't stop the Arrival - Sheapprd did. they failed.

And what sucess are we talking about here? Delaying them. Oh, jolly good. now tell me how you actually plan to FIGHT them? what did Project Rho yield in that regard?[/quote]
 
I'm sure you'll find the concept of success not coming directly out of the CB to be a difficult one to grasp, but it's simple. By delaying them, you've afforded more time to preparing against them. That may even include, but is not limited to, more time for Cerberus to make use of their findings from the mission.
 
And by denying access to the Alpha Relay (supposedly their "shortcut" to the rest of the galaxy) they've effectively become limited in the scope of which their initial invasion will take place. Enough so that Harbinger considers Shepard and his actions to be "an annoyance." If it made no difference besides time (which doesn't matter to immortal machines anyway) I should doubt he'd react as such.
 
Not every tactic towards stopping the Reapers will involve actually fighting with them. On the contrary, it would make less sense to fight them at all until we have some reason to think we stand a chance. That involves limiting their movements as much as possible, not just physically but strategically.
 
Shepard just finished the job the Alliance could not because they'd become indoctrinated. I didn't call it a success, I said it was near one. If they can just avoid indoctrination next time, then there's legitimate reason to think successes can be had. Without the base, without Shepard himself.
 
If T.I.M. is not capable of learning not to set up free-reign cells without significant personal oversight, I doubt he and his agents will learn to avoid losing an entire cell to indoctrination a second time.



[quote]The base gives us the opportunity to study INTACT reaper tech under a controlled enviroment[/u] BEFORE the reapers arrive.
Yet you'd rather let this "ball that bounced" go unused and hope that unother will bounce in our favor under far worse conditions, hoping we cna get something in time. Bravo....[/quote]

Acquiring the base is[/i] a break, but by now you should why I don't take the risk of entrusting it to Cerberus nonetheless.



[quote]You have some strnage fantasy that our labalatories, factories, shipyards, population centers - everythnig that is needed to back-up any military effort and proper research and production - is going to be untouched. The longer the ear goes on, the less of it will we have left.
And you want research to begin late.[/quote]

You say this, and yet you also think this...

[quote]And you again ignore the repaer tech left after the war, so the technologial edge Cerberus might have will be short-lived. And even with that edge, theycna't prevail.[/quote]

 
The double-standards are ever present in your thinking. Against the Reapers, we stand no chance to gain an edge over them with their own tech. But in the aftermath of all the total destruction and warfare, we'll be fine against a galactic then-nuissance now empowered with the technology to recreate Collector attacks.
 
By the way, I'm sure Cerberus could easily acquire whatever is being picked up in the course of the war to fight the Reapers that the rest of the galaxy is. They will always maintain the advantage of the base where no one else does.
 


[quote]Cerberus takes over a single station...And that is proof of the mwanting to take over TEH UNIVERSE!!!!???[/quote]
 
Yeah, okay. I'm sure T.I.M. was just clamoring for that one single mined-out asteroid of crime and filth and that they'll pass on the opportunity to take anything more.



[quote][quote]You'll be lucky if they are only a lesser problem. If they are as bad, worse, or even close, then you've changed nothing.[/quote]

They can't be. That is pure fantasy wihout a shread of logic to back it up.[/quote]

[quote]Cerberus personel numbers in the thousands tops.
The rest of the races number in BILLIONS. They hold al lthe economy. All the military power. Your theory is absurd.[/quote]

[quote][quote]At that point, you've come full-circle. You're facing the same enemy/threat, now without the base, and probably weaker than before as a galaxy.[/quote]

No.[/quote]

 
Lest I remind you that you choose to hand them the base-of-operations behind the abductions of entire colonies? The Collectors weren't large in force either. And yet, the tech they had from that one base was capable enough of coordinating large-scale attacks.
 
I know what the obvious counter to this is: the Collectors were stopped. However, that was considered suicide-mission/impossible-odds excusion for a reason. Turned out to be damned easy, but that gameplay-lore disparity is a writing fail. There is no guarantee this can be done so "easily" (gameplay easy, story difficult) again. If anything, you think Cerberus will pick up on how the Collectors were done in last time and fortify themselves accordingly.
 
Oh sure, they can still be conquered eventually[/i]. If you want to go into eventuals, eventually the Reapers could be stopped, after many die in vain (hence the full-circle thing). Should the army that does eventually conquer Cerberus hand their Cerberus-base to a meglomaniac with unchecked power again? They might need it to fight off the rest of Cerberus.
 
The races number in the billions, right now[/i]. But, millions will be killed by the day when the Reapers arrive (if ME3 Fall of Earth trailer is any indication, if there was any doubt). And whatever weaponry/tech they acquire in the course of the war to empower themselves against the Reapers, Cerberus will undoubtedly acquire those things as well. Afterall, they plant their moles in the Alliance and such.



[quote]I will. the writers are morons really. They never heard of firewalls and closed systems apparently. Viruses that can take over everything are rubbish.

Not saying the Overlord wouldn't be a big disaster..But it's still minor compared to the reapers. Some mechs and automated turrets turring against you is pittance.[/quote]

It's not a virus - it's a rogue VI, capable of hacking. Firewalls can be bypassed, you know that right?
 
Hacked mechs killed off the entire Cerberus team on the Lazarus station, the turrets could destroy the Hammerhead that Shepard was driving through the campus. You assert that the Reapers will tear apart the galaxy as it is and our fleets will all be destroyed like clockwork. Would it not be a signficant self-inflicted wound if human resources around the galaxy fell casualty to random mech-attacks? Vehicles destroyed to automated weaponry as well?


[quote][quote]While on the topic of in-game, more in-game reiterations of my very concerns:

At time of CB decision...
Jack: "... Shepard he's a user, just like the Collectors."

Post-mission (a non-retconned opinion, to be fair)...
Thane: "... I fear all we have done is make (T.I.M.) a giant."[/quote]

Jack is hardly objective, writing sucks there and you are still making no point. The oppinions of some of the companions are not relaly relevant.[/quote]



Your accusation was of metagaming. Except, I'm raising a concern in-game, meaning it is a legitimate possibility to consider in-game as well.

[AndyXTheXGamer360]

Good thing i always blow it up! =)

[Lotion Soronarr]

DPSSOC wrote...

No, the proof is on you to back up unlikely/incredible claims.

I already proved the base can produce advances.
I don't need to prove anything else besides that.

And I wnat you to prove the galaxy can survive without it.

Two Reapers have been beaten using conventional weapons, therefore Reapers can be defeated using conventional weapons.  Advances have been made that have proven effective against considerably advanced tech.  We already have the schematics of a Reaper (apparently) that we can study and locate any weaknesses (essentially all you'd get from the base - knowledge on the inner workings of a Reaper).

Nope.
1 reaper was destroyed by a race that is DEAD. They failed.
The second was only beathen because another race (the Protheans) did research reaper tech. Try again.

And just because you can defeat one repaer by throwing everytihng you have at it, doesn't mean you have a vialbe way of beating the reapers.
It's like me saying that because Crotia has the means to destroy 1 US tank, that we can totaly destroy the US in a war of TOTAL ANIHILATION.

I'm asking for a concrete plan, not "Yes, we can!" speech. CONCRETE..PLAN. How do you plan to defeat them?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 12 décembre 2011 - 07:05 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Also, Lord Aesir, about your claim that nothing usefull can come out of the base and that study of repaer tech leads to more problems every time....

Knowledge is power. Let's look at the tech study and results:

The Protheans studied reaper tech - and thanks to that we got the keeper modification and the Conduit, which saved everyone in the galxy

Cerberus studied reaper AI - which gave us EDI, and wihout her we could never have beaten the Collectors and Baby Reaper.

Cerberus studied the derelict reaper - and it got us the IFF, wich not only allows better use of relays (faster, more precise), but without which we could never have defeated the Collectors.

Kensons studied object Rho - without that, we would have never known about the arrival, nor would have a plan to blow up the relay in place. That study saved the galaxy.

Moridin studied the Seeker Swarms - which gave us a defense agasint it and enabled us to save the human colonies.


Every single time we studied reaper tech, we ended up with a net gain. Every...single...time.
By your own words - the definition of insanity is repating the same thing and expecting different results.

You expect nothing will come out of the CB.

Well, which one of us is insane I woder? Because according to your own words, that would be you.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 12 décembre 2011 - 10:55 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Since this thread is a cockroach, I'm back.
 
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Oh? What moronic things?
All the projects he does make perfect sense. Efficency, speed, bigget bang for hte buck - that's what Cerberus wants. And building a human reaper is neither of those things.[/quote]
 
Bang for the buck: 4 billion+ creds on Shepard when he could have recruited/trained an army. All that money a guy who has minimal long-term value and a legitimate threat to derail their cause down the line?

It was great in the short-term, they defeated the Collectors. Long-term, said army probably would have been the better alternative. They may not have all remained loyal and/or lived, but it would have been a much better gamble than putting all their chips on one man/woman. That they turned up enough evidence to convince Shepard not to part ways with them after Freedom's Progress alone was a total fluke. At least then they'd have that many more human resources than one guy who ultimately leaves them after the mission is over.
 
Not exactly what I would call "money well spent."[/quote]

I have to agree here.
The whole start of ME2 was horribly written and made little sense. I guess the writers wanted to force the player with Cerberus, but they really done it in a horribly stupid way.

Still, if Shep ends up saving the galaxy, the investmect certanly can't be considered a waste...

But aside fromthat moment of Plot Induced Stupidity....
 



 [quote]
No, I have a track-record with which to judge them by. It's the same reason I would not put Tali in charge of a fireteam in the suicide-mission, I've seen it go badly two different times. There's that proof you wanted. It's the same reason I wouldn't entrust the base to Cerberus, the proof is in the failed ME1 rachni experiments and cell-implosions of Teltin and Overlord (which could easily have been stopped).[/quote]

I have a track record too. The track record of 20 years workign for humantiy and against the reapers.

And if faield experiments and rouge agents are a reason to never entrust something to someone, then you should entrust the base to anyone, since every faction has faield experiments and rouge agents of their own.



[quote]
Let me spell that out for you: TIM doesn't care what's going on, just whether or not it's getting results.[/quote]

And results is exactly what we need. Also, proof that other factions operate differently....
 

[quote]
That alone is reason enough to think they lack the responsibility to handle the base. But, if we did NOT know how Cerberus was run as you assert, would that not be more reason we should not blindly entrust them to powerful/dangerous technology? As far as you're concerned, you wouldn't care if you were handing it over to monkeys.[/quote]

If those monkeys could get results, no..I wouldn't care.
The only thing I case is survival of the sentients in this galaxy.




[quote]
And what sucess are we talking about here? Delaying them. Oh, jolly good. now tell me how you actually plan to FIGHT them? what did Project Rho yield in that regard?[/quote]

Some knowledge and more time to prepare.
 

[quote]
[quote]The base gives us the opportunity to study INTACT reaper tech under a controlled enviroment[/u] BEFORE the reapers arrive.
Yet you'd rather let this "ball that bounced" go unused and hope that unother will bounce in our favor under far worse conditions, hoping we cna get something in time. Bravo....[/quote]

Acquiring the base is[/i] a break, but by now you should why I don't take the risk of entrusting it to Cerberus nonetheless.[/quote]

And I don take the risk of galactic extinction.






[quote]
[quote]You have some strnage fantasy that our labalatories, factories, shipyards, population centers - everythnig that is needed to back-up any military effort and proper research and production - is going to be untouched. The longer the ear goes on, the less of it will we have left.
And you want research to begin late.[/quote]

You say this, and yet you also think this...

[quote]And you again ignore the repaer tech left after the war, so the technologial edge Cerberus might have will be short-lived. And even with that edge, theycna't prevail.[/quote]
The double-standards are ever present in your thinking. Against the Reapers, we stand no chance to gain an edge over them with their own tech. But in the aftermath of all the total destruction and warfare, we'll be fine against a galactic then-nuissance now empowered with the technology to recreate Collector attacks.[/quote]

That is no double-standard. But I see i'ts easy for things to go over your head.
In the midst of a war IN YOUR TERRITORY we don't have favorable conditions. Any research lab or shipyard we build, the reapers can easily destroy. You're living on the run, with resources scarce and hard to come by.

You can't study in piece. You can't salvage in piece (indeed, I don't think the reapers will let you near any of their "dead")

After the war is over you can rebuild. You can consolidate.



 [quote]
By the way, I'm sure Cerberus could easily acquire whatever is being picked up in the course of the war to fight the Reapers that the rest of the galaxy is. They will always maintain the advantage of the base where no one else does.[/quote]

And what reaper tech does the base have that the reapers themselves don't?
If everyone masters reaper tech, Cerberus has no advantage.

 

[quote]
Lest I remind you that you choose to hand them the base-of-operations behind the abductions of entire colonies? The Collectors weren't large in force either. And yet, the tech they had from that one base was capable enough of coordinating large-scale attacks.[/quote]

Pfft. the Collectors were stopped by a SINGLE heavy frigate.
The reasons they got away with it was because no one cared enough to bother (and no one knew where they went).

As I said before - Cerberus numbers in the thousands, others number in the billions.
The CB can't shift the odds enough for Cerberus to ever hope to win in an all-out war.
 

 
[quote]
The races number in the billions, right now[/i]. But, millions will be killed by the day when the Reapers arrive (if ME3 Fall of Earth trailer is any indication, if there was any doubt). [/quote]

Still millions left. And among those millions of deaed there will be Cerberus personel too.


[quote]
And whatever weaponry/tech they acquire in the course of the war to empower themselves against the Reapers, Cerberus will undoubtedly acquire those things as well. Afterall, they plant their moles in the Alliance and such.[/quote]

The races of hte galaxy could just send unarmed troops and tehy stil lcrush Cerberus by sheer weight of bodies.



[quote]
It's not a virus - it's a rogue VI, capable of hacking. Firewalls can be bypassed, you know that right?[/quote]

Good ones not so easily. And closed systems can't.

[quote]
Hacked mechs killed off the entire Cerberus team on the Lazarus station, the turrets could destroy the Hammerhead that Shepard was driving through the campus. You assert that the Reapers will tear apart the galaxy as it is and our fleets will all be destroyed like clockwork. Would it not be a signficant self-inflicted wound if human resources around the galaxy fell casualty to random mech-attacks? Vehicles destroyed to automated weaponry as well?[/quote]

I'll rather risk a self-inflicted wound for a chance to survive, then not do anything in the face of imminent death out of fear I might hurt myself and end up dead.


[quote]
Your accusation was of metagaming. Except, I'm raising a concern in-game, meaning it is a legitimate possibility to consider in-game as well.[/quote]

Just because a cahracter sez X, doesn't mean it's a legitimate concern. Characters can be dellusional, misinformed, or just plain wrong.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 12 décembre 2011 - 10:53 .

[Ravensword]

Well this looks fun. First one to get carpal tunnel syndrome loses.

[Sgt Stryker]

dam lotion jus went hella HARD tbh

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

dam lotion jus went hella HARD tbh

Quite so, quite so....

....tbh

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 12 décembre 2011 - 11:42 .

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Also, Lord Aesir, about your claim that nothing usefull can come out of the base and that study of repaer tech leads to more problems every time....

Knowledge is power. Let's look at the tech study and results:

The Protheans studied reaper tech - and thanks to that we got the keeper modification and the Conduit, which saved everyone in the galxy

Cerberus studied reaper AI - which gave us EDI, and wihout her we could never have beaten the Collectors and Baby Reaper.

Cerberus studied the derelict reaper - and it got us the IFF, wich not only allows better use of relays (faster, more precise), but without which we could never have defeated the Collectors.

Kensons studied object Rho - without that, we would have never known about the arrival, nor would have a plan to blow up the relay in place. That study saved the galaxy.

Moridin studied the Seeker Swarms - which gave us a defense agasint it and enabled us to save the human colonies.


Every single time we studied reaper tech, we ended up with a net gain. Every...single...time.
By your own words - the definition of insanity is repating the same thing and expecting different results.

You expect nothing will come out of the CB.

Well, which one of us is insane I woder? Because according to your own words, that would be you.

Your point is, if something worked out in the past, likely it works out in the future too.

Those who blow up the past think it won't go well forever. There has always been a risk to research Reaper tech. And the more you do it the more there is the chance to get to a point of no return. Question is how far will you go. In your case the answer would probably be 'to the bitter end'. In my case it would be 'only as far as I have to'.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Also, Lord Aesir, about your claim that nothing usefull can come out of the base and that study of repaer tech leads to more problems every time....

Knowledge is power. Let's look at the tech study and results:

The Protheans studied reaper tech - and thanks to that we got the keeper modification and the Conduit, which saved everyone in the galaxy

Cerberus studied reaper AI - which gave us EDI, and wihout her we could never have beaten the Collectors and Baby Reaper.

Cerberus studied the derelict reaper - and it got us the IFF, wich not only allows better use of relays (faster, more precise), but without which we could never have defeated the Collectors.

Kensons studied object Rho - without that, we would have never known about the arrival, nor would have a plan to blow up the relay in place. That study saved the galaxy.

Moridin studied the Seeker Swarms - which gave us a defense agasint it and enabled us to save the human colonies.


Every single time we studied reaper tech, we ended up with a net gain. Every...single...time.
By your own words - the definition of insanity is repating the same thing and expecting different results.

You expect nothing will come out of the CB.

Well, which one of us is insane I woder? Because according to your own words, that would be you.

Your point is, if something worked out in the past, likely it works out in the future too.

History tends to repeat itself, yes.

If something is shown to work, why would you stop using it? Out of fear it MIGHT one day stop working?
Unill you have some very good indication/proof it will, AND untill you don't have a better alternative, the only logical course is to continue.

Those who blow up the past base think it won't go well forever. There has always been a risk to research Reaper tech. And the more you do it the more there is the chance to get to a point of no return. Question is how far will you go. In your case the answer would probably be 'to the bitter end'. In my case it would be 'only as far as I have to'.

Actually, it's the other way around - the more you research reaper tech the better you understand it, thus it is LESS likely something will go horribly wrong.

And you think we don't need reaper tech to beat them?
Cute.
I asked this question a million times before - how do you plan to beat the repers? I can tell you now that wishfull thinking and hugs and kisses won't work.

As far as reaper tech research goes - I'd go as far as necessary. Technology isn't some bad mystical mumbo-jumbo that will suck your soul. It's technolgoy. It can be uinderstood and mastered.

You're as afraid of reaper tech as primitive natives were of "thundersticks".

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 12 décembre 2011 - 02:38 .

[BlueMagitek]

Clearly it's gotten to the point that we need to settle this in a rap battle. ~_^

[Harmless Citizen]

Ravensword wrote...

Well this looks fun. First one to get carpal tunnel syndrome loses.

...Totally just read that in Kasumi's voice.

[Ulthair]

D3MON-SOVER3IGN wrote...

Of course because

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER ALERT ALERT ALERT

Cerberus gets their hands on the technology anyway.. LOL

I'm pretty certain that this will not be the case. If they can make Kirrahee have an impact on the war, than surely the biggest choice of ME2 will have a greater impact, if not one of the most important ones, import-wise.

[Medhia Nox]

@Lotion Soronnar: You're correct - in the real world, technology won't suck your soul (it'll make you a complete idiot incapable of basic math and spelling though.)

This is not the real world - in the real world, we don't have mass effect technology - there are no aliens (not a shred of scientific proof) - there are no biotics - no proof that AI will ever be possible - and there's no such thing as indoctrination/huskification - and certainly no Reapers.

It's an interesting note - as I begin a new play through of ME - that in the very beginning, when you speak to Samesh about his wife - the scientist you speak to about it says that the information they gain by studying the bodies will be useful in a few years. It's sad this level of "realism" isn't applied to other forms of "reverse engineering" - elsewhere in ME it's magic and people think reverse engineering a race of entities "supposedly" vastly superior to us - can be accomplish in a matter of months.

Reverse engineer - understand - develop - produce - WIN! All in a nice and tidy year.

Put all your eggs in one basket - I know, since this is a game, that Bioware won't tip it on you - but in the real world (let's all just confuse the two), I wouldn't find it practical.

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Also - you should educate yourself about the Pre-Colonial Americas.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 12 décembre 2011 - 02:33 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Lotion Soronnar: You're correct - in the real world, technology won't suck your soul (it'll make you a complete idiot incapable of basic math and spelling though.)

This is not the real world - in the real world, we don't have mass effect technology - there are no aliens (not a shred of scientific proof) - there are no biotics - no proof that AI will ever be possible - and there's no such thing as indoctrination/huskification - and certainly no Reapers.

Indoctrination is also just technology.
It can be understood and mastered. And it doesn't suck your soul either.

Reverse engineer - understand - develop - produce - WIN! All in a nice and tidy year.

Put all your eggs in one basket - I know, since this is a game, that Bioware won't tip it on you - but in the real world (let's all just confuse the two), I wouldn't find it practical.

You got other baskets? You have so many you want to drop one? News to me.

Also, in a real world there's no way in hell we'd win against the reapers...

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 12 décembre 2011 - 02:43 .