1667 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

You never say what your plan is either. Research it, use the tech, blah blah. If deeds equalled words, ok. But they don't. You have to trust Cerberus, you have to trust that nothing goes wrong and things are not getting worse because of the base and you have to trust that using reaper tech doesn't turn out a bad idea at some point.

I tell you what Lotion, I can live with it if it turns out that blowing it up was the wrong call. Because I did not betray anyone, and did not give a powerful tool to supposed terrorist group. So if it was a wrong call it was still a worthy decision. Though if you do all that. Betray the council and the alliance, gain the mistrust of probably everyone in the world aside from cerberus. And then it turns out to have been a mistake to keep it? What then? Then you have nothing because you made a wrong and morally questionable decision. And then I doubt people will be interested much in 'your logic'.

And even if my decision may have been too idealistic at some point, now, at this point, it is not anymore. Because we know Cerberus is going to betray us. And we know the base will never be of any use for us. You can ignore the fact as long as you wish. But the trailers are already out and everyone can see how Cerberus will use the base to help us. Not.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 12 décembre 2011 - 03:30 .

[BlueMagitek]

I'm sorry, but who did you betray by giving the base to Cerberus? The Alliance & Council? How were they betrayed by keeping the base? It isn't as though you promised it to someone else. And please, explain how keeping the base gains the mistrust of the Krogan, the Quarians, the Geth, the Rachni? Because your companions all magically disagree with you (despite some advocating keeping it)?

And once again, Cerberus is more akin to a rogue Black Ops group than a Terrorist group; you simply perpetuate that statement because of the negative connotations that go along with it.

[Medhia Nox]

@Lotion: How would you know we could not win a war against the Reapers? ((assuming we were capable of more than just throwing tin cans with heavily trained astronauts into space))

I'm sure you're one of the ones that completely ignored the Geth armada - and the sneak attack - and blew Sovereigns invincibility way out of proportions. "OMG - he blew up four ships and Admiral Hackett got upset - we will surely lose!"

Funny - having just re-played the beginning - Ashley says clearly that the Destiny Ascension's main gun could easily destroy any ship in the Alliance. Yet - I bet you let that ship get destroyed... too bad we have Thanix weapons now.

So - you've got your derelict space blender - and I have a Destiny Ascension outfitted with Thanix weaponry.

"It is better to be on hand with ten men than absent with ten thousand." - Tamerlane.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 12 décembre 2011 - 03:37 .

[AlexXIV]

BlueMagitek wrote...

I'm sorry, but who did you betray by giving the base to Cerberus? The Alliance & Council? How were they betrayed by keeping the base? It isn't as though you promised it to someone else. And please, explain how keeping the base gains the mistrust of the Krogan, the Quarians, the Geth, the Rachni? Because your companions all magically disagree with you (despite some advocating keeping it)?

And once again, Cerberus is more akin to a rogue Black Ops group than a Terrorist group; you simply perpetuate that statement because of the negative connotations that go along with it.

Cerberus is enemy to the Council and the Alliance. That's how. The only reason they agreed that one of their spectres works with them is to stop the Collectors. You don't need to give the base to them to stop the collectors, you can just blow it up. So in that case you'd be acting against the interest of the Council and Alliance in favor of Cerberus. If this doesn't qualify for treason then nobody ever committed treason.

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

You never say what your plan is either. Research it, use the tech, blah blah.

Well that's more of a plan than you've got. The base keepers have at least some idea of how they will move forward. You are just hoping for a solution to present itself.


EDIT

As for why we can't beat the Reapers I implore you to look up my old thread.

I'll summarize it though:

The Reapers may greatly outnumber us.

They have better weapons and better defenses.

They have no need to capture most worlds and can instead simply destroy them. (they can hit and run to annihilate the populations of entire planets and render them uninhabitable)

They don't need to defend anything, which means they can always flee from combat if it the battle ever turns against them.

The reapers are stronger. According to that logic, why fight? Because we'd even fight if we had no chance, because giving up is not an option. Keeping the base is a plan, but, frankly, a bad plan. Because too many things can and will go wrong. You are not keeping the base anyway. Cerberus is. So from this point we all move on without plan. You who had the plan to keep the base which failed, and I blowing up the base. We have exactly the same chance to win or lose. So I don't know why you keep insisting it is impossible to beat the reapers. Are you not going to play ME3 and try at least?

[BlueMagitek]

@Alex

They only "agreed" because Anderson and Hackett blocked them from taking action against you, respectively. In the case of giving the base to Cerberus, you're keeping a valuable piece of technology that neither Alliance nor Council would have access to otherwise (unless they violate their "do not interfere with Terminus unless the Quarians are involved" doctrine). Based on their personalities, I don't see the Salarian Councilor or Hackett feeling "betrayed" by you. Especially when you consider that the Alliance and Cerberus had ties to each other.

Not going to address my other points?

[AlexXIV]

BlueMagitek wrote...

@Alex

They only "agreed" because Anderson and Hackett blocked them from taking action against you, respectively. In the case of giving the base to Cerberus, you're keeping a valuable piece of technology that neither Alliance nor Council would have access to otherwise (unless they violate their "do not interfere with Terminus unless the Quarians are involved" doctrine). Based on their personalities, I don't see the Salarian Councilor or Hackett feeling "betrayed" by you. Especially when you consider that the Alliance and Cerberus had ties to each other.

Not going to address my other points?

I thought I had it all covered. Cerberus ... enemy ... Council ... Alliance.

Maybe I should have added that Cerberus does not have the best reputation with most species because of their human superiority thing they have going on. Nobody likes Cerberus 'cept Cerberus itself. They are a Black OPs that went rogue. Not sure if you understand what going rogue means, but it is considered treason. If they still have ties then illegal ones.

I don't know it seems to be something that just doesn't go into Cerberus fans skulls. Cerberus is not working for the Alliance. Not anymore. Discussing with you people feels like an endless circle in which you always forget what was said before and go back to old arguments to keep the circle going.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 12 décembre 2011 - 04:37 .

[BlueMagitek]

AlexXIV wrote...
I thought I had it all covered. Cerberus ... enemy ... Council ... Alliance.

Maybe I should have added that Cerberus does not have the best reputation with most species because of their human superiority thing they have going on. Nobody likes Cerberus 'cept Cerberus itself. They are a Black OPs that went rogue. Not sure if you understand what going rogue means, but it is considered treason. If they still have ties then illegal ones.

I don't know it seems to be something that just doesn't go into Cerberus fans skulls. Cerberus is not working for the Alliance. Not anymore. Discussing with you people feels like an endless circle in which you always forget what was said before and go back to old arguments to keep the circle going.

I was referring to your point that everyone will distrust you if you keep the base when the majority of your potential allies should not.

Yes, I agreed that they're a rogue black ops group.  I also pointed out that the Alliance is not above sticking their fingers in places that they don't belong.  They sent Shepard to murder a liability, they have created an AI, they have ties to Cerberus.  Don't forget, you aren't a part of the Alliance anymore; you don't have to be a Spectre (I'm fairly certain you can even avoid that situation until after the SM).  It cannot be treason if you aren't a part of the organization you're "betraying". 

The same could be said about you luddites who are so afraid of Reaper tech that you'd throw away a once in a lifetime opportunity.  If you hate the Reaper tech so much, you might as well just abandon hope right now; with the possible exception of Geth technology, almost everything we're using is based on the path they've set for us.

[Medhia Nox]

@BlueMagitek: It's funny - I am fully behind your choice to keep the base. I think you've made a calculated and understandable decision.

Not everyone who blows up the Collector Base sees only one angle - I understand "why" people keep it - even while I understand why those same people demand I renounce my choice as stupid and illogical. The mindset behind Cerberus - and behind keeping the base - draws a particular crowd.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

You never say what your plan is either. Research it, use the tech, blah blah. If deeds equalled words, ok. But they don't.

It is a viable plan.
It CAN work.
Now show me what you got.
Cause "lets just amas our armies and hit the reapers" doesn't have a chance of working.

I tell you what Lotion, I can live with it if it turns out that blowing it up was the wrong call. Because I did not betray anyone, and did not give a powerful tool to supposed terrorist group. So if it was a wrong call it was still a worthy decision.

If you're wrong you're dead. Along with every man, woman, child and alien in the galaxy.
You won't be able to "live with it".
So much for your worthy decision...

Though if you do all that. Betray the council and the alliance, gain the mistrust of probably everyone in the world aside from cerberus. And then it turns out to have been a mistake to keep it? What then? Then you have nothing because you made a wrong and morally questionable decision. And then I doubt people will be interested much in 'your logic'.

There's nothing morally questionable about it. the base ins't "evil". Cerberu itself is grey, and in reality no worse than the Council or alliance.
And I don't really think anyone would really case as long as we win. Cerberus is in the same sinking boat (galaxy) as everyone else.

As for what if I'm wrong?.. I was betting to get something. If I got nothing I'm no worse off, since I was f**** before. I failed to get the cork to plug the hole, but at least I tried.

You're betting on keeping the status quo - which would make sense if the status quo was good. But it's not. The ship is still sinking and you are doing nothing productive about the hole.

Your plans are as usefull to the war effort as a condome machine in Vatican...

And even if my decision may have been too idealistic at some point, now, at this point, it is not anymore. Because we know Cerberus is going to betray us. And we know the base will never be of any use for us. You can ignore the fact as long as you wish. But the trailers are already out and everyone can see how Cerberus will use the base to help us. Not.

No, you don't know anything.
You cannot justify your decision by using ME3 knowledge. It didn't happen yet. It doesn't not etroactively justify pased decisions. those decisions are made with knowledge availalbe then. Period.

And even if you could, you'd STILL be wrong. I'll avoid spoilers, but Cerberus do keep their end of the bargain.

[Medhia Nox]

He "knows it" because it's how he makes his argument.

If you don't play the game how he's worked it out - you will lose, or Bioware is just pandering to you and it's stupid writing.

I look forward to Lotion's great works of fiction in the future... I suspect I'll be waiting for as long as it would take to actually reverse engineer the Collector Base and put anything we did manage to scrap together into something functionally useful.

[BlueMagitek]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@BlueMagitek: It's funny - I am fully behind your choice to keep the base. I think you've made a calculated and understandable decision.

Not everyone who blows up the Collector Base sees only one angle - I understand "why" people keep it - even while I understand why those same people demand I renounce my choice as stupid and illogical. The mindset behind Cerberus - and behind keeping the base - draws a particular crowd.

I can understand some arguments on why someone would not want to keep the base, I disagree with it, but I can understand it.  However, I do not buy the argument that "Reaper tech is dangerous, therefore we need to avoid it".  This isn't a bad rule to have, but while there is an inherent danger to it, we can't just follow that rule.  There is a risk, yes, but it's better to try to do something with it, anything with it, as opposed to just destroying it. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Lotion: How would you know we could not win a war against the Reapers? ((assuming we were capable of more than just throwing tin cans with heavily trained astronauts into space))

I'm sure you're one of the ones that completely ignored the Geth armada - and the sneak attack - and blew Sovereigns invincibility way out of proportions. "OMG - he blew up four ships and Admiral Hackett got upset - we will surely lose!"

Funny - having just re-played the beginning - Ashley says clearly that the Destiny Ascension's main gun could easily destroy any ship in the Alliance. Yet - I bet you let that ship get destroyed... too bad we have Thanix weapons now.

So - you've got your derelict space blender - and I have a Destiny Ascension outfitted with Thanix weaponry.

"It is better to be on hand with ten men than absent with ten thousand." - Tamerlane.

Did you miss man previous discussion on this subject? I you think we can win, please, provide concrete evidence we can. I provided mroe than enough hat we can't...but since you apprently cannot be bothered to inform yourself before flappign your mouth...

The devis confirmed Sovereign would have inflicted FAR bigger loses to us if shep didn't blow up the avatar. They also confirmed there were DN's with the 5'th fleet.
and it's also confirmed Soveriegn wasn't fully in the fight. He didn't evade, he occasionally swatted a ship, but we know he's capable of much more. He's got 8 tracking/gimbled guns that can 1-shot cruisers, and they fire every few seconds. He was capable of destroying 8 cruisers in the first 2 seconds of combat.
And he never even used his main gun.

Then let's not forget that they are faster and more mobile (both tacticly and strategicly), can quit the field whenever they want (we can't), can turn our own people and guns agaisnt us. They are also faster in FTL, can use relays with more accuracy and can shut them down. Also, a single reaper can bomb the planet back to stone age with ease.

So how exatly do you think we can defeat them?

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...
Cerberus is enemy to the Council and the Alliance. That's how. The only reason they agreed that one of their spectres works with them is to stop the Collectors. You don't need to give the base to them to stop the collectors, you can just blow it up. So in that case you'd be acting against the interest of the Council and Alliance in favor of Cerberus. If this doesn't qualify for treason then nobody ever committed treason.

Working agaisnt the reapers is treason?

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

You never say what your plan is either. Research it, use the tech, blah blah.

Well that's more of a plan than you've got. The base keepers have at least some idea of how they will move forward. You are just hoping for a solution to present itself.


EDIT

As for why we can't beat the Reapers I implore you to look up my old thread.

I'll summarize it though:

The Reapers may greatly outnumber us.

They have better weapons and better defenses.

They have no need to capture most worlds and can instead simply destroy them. (they can hit and run to annihilate the populations of entire planets and render them uninhabitable)

They don't need to defend anything, which means they can always flee from combat if it the battle ever turns against them.

The reapers are stronger. According to that logic, why fight? Because we'd even fight if we had no chance, because giving up is not an option. Keeping the base is a plan, but, frankly, a bad plan. Because too many things can and will go wrong. You are not keeping the base anyway. Cerberus is. So from this point we all move on without plan. You who had the plan to keep the base which failed, and I blowing up the base. We have exactly the same chance to win or lose. So I don't know why you keep insisting it is impossible to beat the reapers. Are you not going to play ME3 and try at least?

Nope. Forst of all, you dont' know if things will go wrong. You don't. So stop talking rubbish.
Secondly, evne if they do, it's a risk work taking. You clearly got not better alternatives.

You have nothing, we have something.

Cerberus keeping the base is not faliure, since Cerberus will be fighting reapers too.


And when we say "it is impossible to beat the reapers" we mean that it's impossible to beat them in a conventional war. It's impossibleto beat them wihout a plan, withotu some ace in the hole.

You got NOTHING.
We  may have something.

[Lotion Soronarr]

jreezy wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I tell you what Lotion, I can live with it if it turns out that blowing it up was the wrong call. Because I did not betray anyone, and did not give a powerful tool to supposed terrorist group. So if it was a wrong call it was still a worthy decision.

If you're wrong you're dead. Along with every man, woman, child and alien in the galaxy.
You won't be able to "live with it".
So much for your worthy decision...

And you know that how?

Did he present any alternate plan to deal with the repaers? No.

And his claim was that the base is not necessary. Hence, if he is wrong, then it WAS necessary.

[Labrev]

[quote][quote]No, I have a track-record with which to judge them by. It's the same reason I would not put Tali in charge of a fireteam in the suicide-mission, I've seen it go badly two different times. There's that proof you wanted. It's the same reason I wouldn't entrust the base to Cerberus, the proof is in the failed ME1 rachni experiments and cell-implosions of Teltin and Overlord (which could easily have been stopped).[/quote]

I have a track record too. The track record of 20 years workign for humantiy and against the reapers.

And if faield experiments and rouge agents are a reason to never entrust something to someone, then you should entrust the base to anyone, since every faction has faield experiments and rouge agents of their own.[/quote]

Is there basis to this claim, or is it philosophy?

BTW, I have no problem with failure if it's learned from. In Cerberus's case, they cleary didn't. He let Overlord get out of hand in the exact same manner Teltin did, and it easily could have been avoided.


[quote]And results is exactly what we need. Also, proof that other factions operate differently....[/quote]

If said results were had, then sure. They were not. The cells cut corners to meet deadlines.
 

[quote]If those monkeys could get results, no..I wouldn't care.
The only thing I case is survival of the sentients in this galaxy.[/quote]

Neither would I but again, I've seen very little in the way of "results" from their end.



[quote][quote]And what sucess are we talking about here? Delaying them. Oh, jolly good. now tell me how you actually plan to FIGHT them? what did Project Rho yield in that regard?[/quote]

Some knowledge and more time to prepare.[/quote]
 
... you literally just argued with yourself. I didn't bring up that question, you did. BTW, my response was the same.


[quote][quote]Acquiring the base is[/i] a break, but by now you should why I don't take the risk of entrusting it to Cerberus nonetheless.[/quote]

And I don take the risk of galactic extinction.[/quote]

Fair enough, but I see little preference in replacing the old problem with a new one that's even close to the same threat in the name of "survival." Either way, you exist because they allow it, and can be extinguished when they demand it (to use Sovereign's own words).




[quote]That is no double-standard. But I see i'ts easy for things to go over your head.
In the midst of a war IN YOUR TERRITORY we don't have favorable conditions. Any research lab or shipyard we build, the reapers can easily destroy. You're living on the run, with resources scarce and hard to come by.

You can't study in piece. You can't salvage in piece (indeed, I don't think the reapers will let you near any of their "dead")[/quote]

This doesn't change whether you're facing the Reapers or any other wartime threat, especially when the latter may be empowered with Reaper-weaponry anyway. They can come around and sabotage any enemy lab/shipyard. Not in the form of an actual Reaper, but the same damage can be done.



[quote]And what reaper tech does the base have that the reapers themselves don't?
If everyone masters reaper tech, Cerberus has no advantage.[/quote]

Who's to say. I doubt the actual Reapers don't have the seeker-swarms on hand. Those were in the base. The Collectors were clones, tech replaced their vital organs. Maybe they could clone more, use the control-chip that they didn't on Shepard to make them obedient.

 

[quote]Pfft. the Collectors were stopped by a SINGLE heavy frigate.
The reasons they got away with it was because no one cared enough to bother (and no one knew where they went).

As I said before - Cerberus numbers in the thousands, others number in the billions.
The CB can't shift the odds enough for Cerberus to ever hope to win in an all-out war.[/quote]

You conviently cut out the part of the post where I pre-emptively addressed this counter. That was a suicide-mission, supposedly impossible-odds (what are the Reapers if not an impossible-odds enemy themselves?)

It was easy, in gameplay! Through the story, it was supposed to be hard (again, writer fail for such a disparity).

There is no gurantee this operation is launched successfully again. Cerberus was behind it the first time anyway, if they're smart, they'd make a point to better fortify their bases of operations for such an attack than the Collectors did.
 
And they can still travel beyond the O4-relay too and effectively "hide" like the Collectors used to. As is, nobody knows where T.I.M. is at any given time anyway.

 

[quote]The races of hte galaxy could just send unarmed troops and tehy stil lcrush Cerberus by sheer weight of bodies.[/quote]

Manpower is just one component in the sum of all parts. That alone is not always enough. We could have more ships than the Reapers, but that would not matter when one side has a clear lean in strength.



[quote][quote]Hacked mechs killed off the entire Cerberus team on the Lazarus station, the turrets could destroy the Hammerhead that Shepard was driving through the campus. You assert that the Reapers will tear apart the galaxy as it is and our fleets will all be destroyed like clockwork. Would it not be a signficant self-inflicted wound if human resources around the galaxy fell casualty to random mech-attacks? Vehicles destroyed to automated weaponry as well?[/quote]

I'll rather risk a self-inflicted wound for a chance to survive, then not do anything in the face of imminent death out of fear I might hurt myself and end up dead.[/quote]


And what if a self-inflicted wound costs you your survival?