1667 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

jreezy wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Did he present any alternate plan to deal with the repaers? No.

And his claim was that the base is not necessary. Hence, if he is wrong, then it WAS necessary.

Necessary for our survival though? That remains to be seen.

Given that no one has yet presented a viable survival plan that didn't involve the base.....

[AlexXIV]

We can do this forth and back for eternity. Because I am not going to admit something I don't have to. And you obviously keep using flawed logic. We have nothing, you have something. The 'We have nothing' part is true. But you merely have something that may blow up in your face and leave you with less than we have. That it is worth the risk is your opinion, nothing more, nothing less. Why don't you stop regarding your opinion as fact? It's a risk I am not willing to take, and at that point as good as a decision as yours to take the risk. When has it ever been made an universal rule that taking a risk, any risk, is automatically better than not taking it? I doubt people who think that way will ever grow old. Frankly, so far I didn't have a choice. Did I have a choice with lazerus project? No. Did I have a choice with EDI or the Thannix cannon? No. They have already been researched and it went well. That's good enough. But frankly it is a difference to use tech that has already been proven to be save or to research something I know nothing about than that it is from a race who has made it a habit to wipe out the galaxy repeatedly and also is heavy into indoctrination. It is simply naive that if you are on a way that is suspected to be dangerous (we have been warned to use Reaper tech) and assume it will all go well because so far it went relatively well.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 12 décembre 2011 - 06:11 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
Is there basis to this claim, or is it philosophy?

BTW, I have no problem with failure if it's learned from. In Cerberus's case, they cleary didn't. He let Overlord get out of hand in the exact same manner Teltin did, and it easily could have been avoided.[/quote]

Hidisght is 20/20.
There is no easier job than being a general AFTER the battle....


 
[quote]
[quote]If those monkeys could get results, no..I wouldn't care.
The only thing I case is survival of the sentients in this galaxy.[/quote]

Neither would I but again, I've seen very little in the way of "results" from their end.[/quote]

Well, dont' blame me for your blindness....



[quote]
... you literally just argued with yourself. I didn't bring up that question, you did. BTW, my response was the same.[/quote]

I didn't argue with myself. I confirmed what we got out of project Rho. If you think that was worthless, you're wlecome to fight the reapers several motnths earlier.





[quote][quote]
And I don take the risk of galactic extinction.[/quote]

Fair enough, but I see little preference in replacing the old problem with a new one that's even close to the same threat in the name of "survival." Either way, you exist because they allow it, and can be extinguished when they demand it (to use Sovereign's own words).[/quote]

One problem at a time.
Also, there's no way in hell Cerberus can be even close to the same level of threat the reapers can. Waht you are claiming is an abortion of logic and good sense.

And there's nothing duplicious about survival of your species. There is no higher goal.
Why would you use it in quotation marks is beyond me....



[quote]
[quote]That is no double-standard. But I see i'ts easy for things to go over your head.
In the midst of a war IN YOUR TERRITORY we don't have favorable conditions. Any research lab or shipyard we build, the reapers can easily destroy. You're living on the run, with resources scarce and hard to come by.

You can't study in piece. You can't salvage in piece (indeed, I don't think the reapers will let you near any of their "dead")[/quote]

This doesn't change whether you're facing the Reapers or any other wartime threat, especially when the latter may be empowered with Reaper-weaponry anyway. They can come around and sabotage any enemy lab/shipyard. Not in the form of an actual Reaper, but the same damage can be done.[/quote]

Nope.
Cerberus doesn't have the numbers or resources for that. Where are they getting their ships to find and blow up the labs/shipyards? Out of thin air? How the hell do you think 1000 people will oversee the galaxy?
Also, what happened to the other races militaries? Did they just dissaper?

What kind of fantasy scenario is this in which cerberus gains ULTIMATE POWER, the abiltiy to be everywhere and do everytihng -  and everone else loses everything?

What happens if the Council turns into a archdeom and eats shepaprd? What? It can happen! Better kill them quick, jsut to make sure it won't happen.

Evre heard the expression "you dont' control something unless you have boots on the ground"?
Cerberus doesn't have the boots.

What you are saying is something only someone with zero knowledge of logistic, miltiary and governance would say.



[quote]
Who's to say. I doubt the actual Reapers don't have the seeker-swarms on hand. Those were in the base. The Collectors were clones, tech replaced their vital organs. Maybe they could clone more, use the control-chip that they didn't on Shepard to make them obedient.[/quote]

So they get a thousand Collectors? Big deal..teh Blue suns are a bigger danger than that.

You seem to forget that the other races have many planets.. populations number in billions.
They have many, many shipards. Many, many military bases where marines are trianed.

A single base, no matter how advanced, cannot drasticly alter such odds.

 



[quote]
You conviently cut out the part of the post where I pre-emptively addressed this counter. That was a suicide-mission, supposedly impossible-odds (what are the Reapers if not an impossible-odds enemy themselves?)[/quote]

Impossible odds for a team of 10 to inflitrate a huge base - yes.

The base itself is not armed. The Collector ship itself is not impressive (un-upgraded Normandy takes it out).

So if a single frigate with 10 people can do it, I really don't see why an armada with thousands of soldiers would have any problems... Not that you'd even need to send soldiers.
Mr. Isaac Newton can take care of it.


[quote]
And they can still travel beyond the O4-relay too and effectively "hide" like the Collectors used to. As is, nobody knows where T.I.M. is at any given time anyway.[/quote]

But we know there the base is and where the relay is and we have the IFF.
Those can't be hidden.

 

[quote]
Manpower is just one component in the sum of all parts. That alone is not always enough. We could have more ships than the Reapers, but that would not matter when one side has a clear lean in strength.[/quote]

Except Cerberus lacks real naval firepower. If they can't hold the high-ground, they can't win. And they can't.
Nor does Cerberus overpower anyone else by such a huge margin (and neither can they).


[quote][quote]
I'll rather risk a self-inflicted wound for a chance to survive, then not do anything in the face of imminent death out of fear I might hurt myself and end up dead.[/quote]

And what if a self-inflicted wound costs you your survival?
[/quote]

Underlined for you...

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 12 décembre 2011 - 06:16 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

We can do this forth and back for eternity. Because I am not going to admit something I don't have to. And you obviously keep using flawed logic. We have nothing, you have something.

I have something. You just don't want to accept that. You can't accept that. To do so would mean that you made a fools gamble.

The 'We have nothing' part is true. But you merely have something that may blow up in your face and leave you with less than we have. That it is worth the risk is your opinion, nothing more, nothing less. Why don't you stop regarding your opinion as fact? It's a risk I am not willing to take, and at that point as good as a decision as yours to take the risk.

You freely admit that you have nothing....then how do you plan to beat the reapers?
I cannot be left with less because I already have nothing.

We need something..Yet we don't have it. and you don't want to risk to try to get it...

I cannot help but laugh....

When has it ever been made an universal rule that taking a risk, any risk, is automatically better than not taking it?. It is simply naive that if you are on a way that is suspected to be dangerous (we have been warned to use Reaper tech) and assume it will all go well because so far it went relatively well.

Since when is this "any risk". This isnt' a risk taken for kicks, or for laughs.

Calculated risk, yes.

And what is naive is to disregard history, disregard evidence in front of yourself and loose yourself to baseless fear (repaer tech is evil mojo).

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

We can do this forth and back for eternity. Because I am not going to admit something I don't have to. And you obviously keep using flawed logic. We have nothing, you have something.

I have something. You just don't want to accept that. You can't accept that. To do so would mean that you made a fools gamble.

The 'We have nothing' part is true. But you merely have something that may blow up in your face and leave you with less than we have. That it is worth the risk is your opinion, nothing more, nothing less. Why don't you stop regarding your opinion as fact? It's a risk I am not willing to take, and at that point as good as a decision as yours to take the risk.

You freely admit that you have nothing....then how do you plan to beat the reapers?
I cannot be left with less because I already have nothing.

We need something..Yet we don't have it. and you don't want to risk to try to get it...

I cannot help but laugh....

When has it ever been made an universal rule that taking a risk, any risk, is automatically better than not taking it?. It is simply naive that if you are on a way that is suspected to be dangerous (we have been warned to use Reaper tech) and assume it will all go well because so far it went relatively well.

Since when is this "any risk". This isnt' a risk taken for kicks, or for laughs.

Calculated risk, yes.

And what is naive is to disregard history, disregard evidence in front of yourself and loose yourself to baseless fear (repaer tech is evil mojo).

Can I see this calculation then? Because you say calculated risk yet you have no numbers. Calculating without numbers I guess then? I can calculate my risk. Basis gone, zero risk. Also obvioulsy you are of the opinion if you have nothing it cannot get worse. You can have nothing and a huge problem. Which can happen if you keep the base and sums up to two problems because the Reapers won't go away just because you are looking for more problems. So while you are dealing with two problems and have nothing I will deal with one problem and have nothing. What are the chances in this scenario?

You are not calculating, you are not thinking things through. What you do is actionism. A bad habit based on the theory that doing something is always better than doing nothing, no matter what you do. Which is wrong.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 12 décembre 2011 - 06:34 .

[Labrev]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
Is there basis to this claim, or is it philosophy?

BTW, I have no problem with failure if it's learned from. In Cerberus's case, they cleary didn't. He let Overlord get out of hand in the exact same manner Teltin did, and it easily could have been avoided.[/quote]

Hidisght is 20/20.
There is no easier job than being a general AFTER the battle....[/quote]

The problem I have with that is, it's T.I.M.'s own fault for not being involved. He has surveillance on the Normandy SR2, why does he not keep the same watchful eye on the other cells (especially after what happened at Teltin years back)? He clearly had no clue what was going on with Overlord, if the cell was making progress and TIM didn't think it was.


 
[quote][quote]Neither would I but again, I've seen very little in the way of "results" from their end.[/quote]

Well, dont' blame me for your blindness....[/quote]

The irony here is incredible. Their failure record is clear as day from two games alone.

And I don't care what Cerberus apologists want to bring up as successes out-of-game, seeing as they tend to be demented enough to consider Teltin a success, when Cerberus themselves don't even believe as much!



[quote]I didn't argue with myself. I confirmed what we got out of project Rho. If you think that was worthless, you're wlecome to fight the reapers several motnths earlier.[/quote]

No, the post you responded to, here:

[quote]And what success are we talking about here? Delaying them. Oh, jolly good. Now tell me how you actually plan to FIGHT them? what did Project Rho yield in that regard?[/quote]

... was your own. 




[quote][quote][quote]And I don take the risk of galactic extinction.[/quote]

Fair enough, but I see little preference in replacing the old problem with a new one that's even close to the same threat in the name of "survival." Either way, you exist because they allow it, and can be extinguished when they demand it (to use Sovereign's own words).[/quote]

One problem at a time.
Also, there's no way in hell Cerberus can be even close to the same level of threat the reapers can. Waht you are claiming is an abortion of logic and good sense.[/quote]

The Collectors in their small size were carrying out abductions of entire colonies. "I'd say that fits the definition of harvesting," says Jack Harper of their terrorism. Now their tools/weapons will belong to Cerberus. They can carry out the same thing what the Reapers/Collectors have been doing. It seems the abortion is on you, somewhere along the last two lines of thinking in this very spelled-out logic.

Just because they can't literally be immortal sentient machines does not mean they can become a comparable threat to them.


[quote]And there's nothing duplicious about survival of your species. There is no higher goal.
Why would you use it in quotation marks is beyond me....[/quote]

There is survival involved when the Reapers are still in power. Before they arrive, life goes on. Sure, people die later when they decide to kill everyone, but plenty others still live before them and will again afterwards. Is that not good enough? (note: I'm not seriously asking that question).

Now the serious question is, is it survival still really preffered when one group has been empowered enough to do the same (extinguish any life they choose at will) - ?


[quote]Nope.
Cerberus doesn't have the numbers or resources for that. Where are they getting their ships to find and blow up the labs/shipyards? Out of thin air? How the hell do you think 1000 people will oversee the galaxy?
Also, what happened to the other races militaries? Did they just dissaper?

What kind of fantasy scenario is this in which cerberus gains ULTIMATE POWER, the abiltiy to be everywhere and do everytihng -  and everone else loses everything?

What happens if the Council turns into a archdeom and eats shepaprd? What? It can happen! Better kill them quick, jsut to make sure it won't happen.

Evre heard the expression "you dont' control something unless you have boots on the ground"?
Cerberus doesn't have the boots.

What you are saying is something only someone with zero knowledge of logistic, miltiary and governance would say.[/quote]

Actually, we really have no clue what Cerberus's resources are to say either way. Miranda says herself, "I doubt anyone but the Illusive Man really knows that." They may easily have ships to capable of carrying out a sabotage operation of enemy shipyards/labs. They are a black ops group, how little manpower could they really have? Besides, they can recruit/expand later.

If they attach Reaper weaponry to whatever ships they do have, in the plan that you outlined involving giving them the base, who's to say they can't carry out such pre-emptive strikes on everyone else. And they don't have to be everywhere to identify such threats, simple intel would suffice and TIM seems to have a lot of that.


[quote]So they get a thousand Collectors? Big deal..teh Blue suns are a bigger danger than that.

You seem to forget that the other races have many planets.. populations number in billions.
They have many, many shipards. Many, many military bases where marines are trianed.

A single base, no matter how advanced, cannot drasticly alter such odds.[/quote]

What limit exists on cloning?

You yourself are the one that said that it's easy to bomb a planet into stone-ages, so does it matter how many planets/military bases are out there to fight them if a Reaper-empowered Cerberus can go destroy them all?
 


[quote]
[quote]You conviently cut out the part of the post where I pre-emptively addressed this counter. That was a suicide-mission, supposedly impossible-odds (what are the Reapers if not an impossible-odds enemy themselves?)[/quote]

Impossible odds for a team of 10 to inflitrate a huge base - yes.

The base itself is not armed. The Collector ship itself is not impressive (un-upgraded Normandy takes it out).

So if a single frigate with 10 people can do it, I really don't see why an armada with thousands of soldiers would have any problems... Not that you'd even need to send soldiers.
Mr. Isaac Newton can take care of it.[/quote]

The base was not a fortress, and the upgrades from that Normandy can be transferred over to the next big ship/cruiser Cerberus plans to use (hence the phenomenon of the next threat getting stronger which each one conqeured).

Frankly it's beyond me why the Collector Ship didn't incorporate the impenetrable shields of their Reaper counterparts.

Again, you have to think Cerberus fortifies themselves better for next time.


[quote][quote]And they can still travel beyond the O4-relay too and effectively "hide" like the Collectors used to. As is, nobody knows where T.I.M. is at any given time anyway.[/quote]

But we know there the base is and where the relay is and we have the IFF.
Those can't be hidden.[/quote]

Granted Cerberus doesn't better prepare with better counter-attacks for all enemies that attempt to pass. If they are smart, they reinforce their defenses better than the Collectors did (EDI hypothesizes that they probably didn't even expect anyone to reach their base).


[quote][quote]
I'll rather risk a self-inflicted wound for a chance to survive, then not do anything in the face of imminent death out of fear I might hurt myself and end up dead.[/quote]

And what if a self-inflicted wound costs you your survival?
[/quote]

Underlined for you...[/quote]

I saw that, still have a couple problems here:

1.) Imminent death without the base is no more a guarantee any more than survival is with it intact.
2.) If that self-inflicted wound ends up costing you when you otherwise may have had a chance to win, you clearly made the wrong decision.


This is the issue I'm facing with the decision as a whole - making a rash/reckless decision because of this "we have no choice" mentality.

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 12 décembre 2011 - 07:07 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...
Can I see this calculation then? Because you say calculated risk yet you have no numbers. Calculating without numbers I guess then?

Numbers?
You mean things like a single reaper tanking an entire fleets firepower for minutes?
You
mean like calculating that it can destroy 9 ships every 5-6 seconds
(according to the codex it has 8 smaller and 1 main gun).
You mean like taking into account their superiority in every facet of warfare?

I can calculate my risk. Basis gone, zero risk. Also obvioulsy you are of the opinion if you have nothing it cannot get worse. You can have nothing and a huge problem. Which can happen if you keep the base and sums up to two problems because the Reapers won't go away just because you are looking for more problems. So while you are dealing with two problems and have nothing I will deal with one problem and have nothing. What are the chances in this scenario?

You say base gone, zero risk? Zero risk from base going bad. 100% risk from reapers.

See, I'm trying to do somethnig about that 100%.. About the FAR BIGGER THREAT. You are so focused on Cerberus and the base, that you're ignorign the reapers.

If the base ends up beign a dud, or blows up in my face - I'm boned. And I was boned before. Not much of a difference.

You are not calculating, you are not thinking things through. What you do is actionism. A bad habit based on the theory that doing something is always better than doing nothing, no matter what you do. Which is wrong.

An ironic statement, coming from you. Have you fallen so low that you have to invent thing just so you can write something in the reply box?

Please, point out where I said that doing something is always better than doing nothing? Unless you consider this one subject (the collector base) indicative of some trend of mine.

See, I'm not suggesting we do anything. I'm suggesting to do something which shows great promise of wroking.

You suggest sitting on our ases and hoping for a Deus Ex Machina. It is you that are nto calculating. It is you that are not thinking. The idea that this is a game and Sheppard will win is apprently so ingrained into your thought process, that you fail to realise that no sane individual would think like that.
That's the only reason I can think of you would be saying something like that, cause Lord knows, your arguments for blowing the base don't hold any water.


And after so many pages, no one of you has yet come up with a better plan...
Son, I am dissapoint.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Hidisght is 20/20.
There is no easier job than being a general AFTER the battle....[/quote]

The problem I have with that is, it's T.I.M.'s own fault for not being involved. He has surveillance on the Normandy SR2, why does he not keep the same watchful eye on the other cells (especially after what happened at Teltin years back)? He clearly had no clue what was going on with Overlord, if the cell was making progress and TIM didn't think it was.[/quote]

As I said, it's easy to say "this shoudl have ben doen like this" in hindsight.
The very fact that everyone in the ME universe had experiments blow up in their place and rouge agents doesn't really single Cerberus out as any more incompetent.


 

[quote][quote]
Well, dont' blame me for your blindness....[/quote]

The irony here is incredible. Their failure record is clear as day from two games alone.

And I don't care what Cerberus apologists want to bring up as successes out-of-game, seeing as they tend to be demented enough to consider Teltin a success, when Cerberus themselves don't even believe as much![/quote]

Everoyne, join the irony train...



[quote]
[quote]I didn't argue with myself. I confirmed what we got out of project Rho. If you think that was worthless, you're wlecome to fight the reapers several motnths earlier.[/quote]

No, the post you responded to, here:

[quote]And what success are we talking about here? Delaying them. Oh, jolly good. Now tell me how you actually plan to FIGHT them? what did Project Rho yield in that regard?[/quote]

... was your own. [/quote]

Dude. .the post you quotds is your own....



[quote]
The Collectors in their small size were carrying out abductions of entire colonies. "I'd say that fits the definition of harvesting," says Jack Harper of their terrorism. Now their tools/weapons will belong to Cerberus. They can carry out the same thing what the Reapers/Collectors have been doing. It seems the abortion is on you, somewhere along the last two lines of thinking in this very spelled-out logic.[/quote]

No one knew where the collector base was, no one had the IFF.
Cerberus doesn't have those advantages.
Also, why the hell would Cerberus kidnap colonies? Don't start the "they'll make a human reaper" insanity again. that's crazy talk.


[quote]
Just because they can't literally be immortal sentient machines does not mean they can become a comparable threat to them.[/quote]

No, they can't become a comparable threat to them.
The reapers were around for millions of years. They have the resources of many entire galactic cycles behind them.
Cerberus has a thousand people.

It's liek saing Al'Quaida can become the new US because they got a hold of a US stealth bomber!
Surely this means that by tomrrow tehy will darken our skies with their stealth bombers:P



[quote]
[quote]And there's nothing duplicious about survival of your species. There is no higher goal.
Why would you use it in quotation marks is beyond me....[/quote]

There is survival involved when the Reapers are still in power. Before they arrive, life goes on. Sure, people die later when they decide to kill everyone, but plenty others still live before them and will again afterwards. Is that not good enough? (note: I'm not seriously asking that question).[/quote]

Then why post it?


[quote]
Now the serious question is, is it survival still really preffered when one group has been empowered enough to do the same (extinguish any life they choose at will) - ?[/qutoe]

You just said it is survival even with the reapers in your quote above. Yet now it's not survival..becasue Cerberus takes their place? What?





[quote]
Actually, we really have no clue what Cerberus's resources are to say either way. Miranda says herself, "I doubt anyone but the Illusive Man really knows that." They may easily have ships to capable of carrying out a sabotage operation of enemy shipyards/labs. They are a black ops group, how little manpower could they really have? Besides, they can recruit/expand later.[/quote]

Little. Black ops groups are by definitions and necessity rather small.

And while groups can expand there are practical limitations to their size. Cerberus certanly can become big enough to really threaten any of the galactic powers.


[quote]
If they attach Reaper weaponry to whatever ships they do have, in the plan that you outlined involving giving them the base, who's to say they can't carry out such pre-emptive strikes on everyone else. And they don't have to be everywhere to identify such threats, simple intel would suffice and TIM seems to have a lot of that.[/quote]

Transports armed wiht reaper weapons? Again, Cerberus doesn't have the necessary infrastrucre for such large-scale operations. Small-scale operations are what black ops are for, and that is Cerberuses origin.

Every soldeir needs food, clothing, accomodation, trasnportation and many other things  all those need to be supplied. In an all out-war, Cerberus doesn't stand a chance. Only nations can field militaries with enough power to really do something.
Private armeis nad terrorist groups can harass.



[quote]
[quote]So they get a thousand Collectors? Big deal..teh Blue suns are a bigger danger than that.

You seem to forget that the other races have many planets.. populations number in billions.
They have many, many shipards. Many, many military bases where marines are trianed.

A single base, no matter how advanced, cannot drasticly alter such odds.[/quote]

What limit exists on cloning?[/quote]

clones still need tie to grow. They need to eat. They need equipment. They need training. And more. And every one of those things have to be provided.

cloning is not a magical answer for making an army. It's not the lack of bodies that limits modern armies - it's hte support and infrastructure.


[quote]
You yourself are the one that said that it's easy to bomb a planet into stone-ages, so does it matter how many planets/military bases are out there to fight them if a Reaper-empowered Cerberus can go destroy them all?
[quote]

With what fleets?
And if a planet is a "easy" target, any cerberus base or shipyard is even easier.
Tell me, where will Cerberus produce those ships once the other races blow them up? Were will they ressuply them? repair them?



WTF is with this thinking that reaper tech will magicly make Cerberus into an unstoppable force...and then saying reapers (who are far more numeros and experienced and cna use that tech even more efficiently) can be stopped or that the base can yield nothing of import?





[quote][quote]
The base itself is not armed. The Collector ship itself is not impressive (un-upgraded Normandy takes it out).

So if a single frigate with 10 people can do it, I really don't see why an armada with thousands of soldiers would have any problems... Not that you'd even need to send soldiers.
Mr. Isaac Newton can take care of it.[/quote]

The base was not a fortress, and the upgrades from that Normandy can be transferred over to the next big ship/cruiser Cerberus plans to use (hence the phenomenon of the next threat getting stronger which each one conqeured).

Again, you have to think Cerberus fortifies themselves better for next time.[/quote]

Exactly how much resources can they waste on it?
What, you think the Alliance/Council won't upgrade their ships? All of the tech used on Normandy is also known to them.

Doesn't matter how much they fortify themselves. Unless they close off the realay, they cna't hope to beat a determined attack. A few DN shots and that base is a pile of rubble.



[quote][quote]
But we know there the base is and where the relay is and we have the IFF.
Those can't be hidden.[/quote]

Granted Cerberus doesn't better prepare with better counter-attacks for all enemies that attempt to pass. If they are smart, they reinforce their defenses better than the Collectors did (EDI hypothesizes that they probably didn't even expect anyone to reach their base).[/quote]

And Cerberus gets stuck inside that system. As soon aas they pop their head out, they'd be blown to smitherines.
That all assuming the alliance/Council decides not to go in.

Static defenses in space are actually a silly concept. A singe DN could take out that base from the other side of the system.




[quote]
I saw that, still have a couple problems here:

1.) Imminent death without the base is no more a guarantee any more than survival is with it intact.
2.) If that self-inflicted wound ends up costing you when you otherwise may have had a chance to win, you clearly made the wrong decision.[/quote]

1) Yes it is. You've yet to provide ANYTHING - even an indication - that we can win.
2) I dont' have a chance to win.

Here's a tip - if you fight someone in a swordfight, don't swing your sword - it leaves you open to attack. You clearly can't risk it!


[quote]
This is the issue I'm facing with the decision as a whole - making a rash/reckless decision because of this "we have no choice" mentality.[/quote]

More like "we have no better choice".

If I'm wrong and there is another choice, I'm still waiting to hear it. Been waiting since this thread stated.

I invite you...no... I DARE you to give me a better alternative.

[Darth Death]

Saphra Deden & lotion on a rampage yet again:)

[DPSSOC]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
The reapers are stronger. According to that logic, why fight? Because we'd even fight if we had no chance, because giving up is not an option. Keeping the base is a plan, but, frankly, a bad plan. Because too many things can and will go wrong. You are not keeping the base anyway. Cerberus is. So from this point we all move on without plan. You who had the plan to keep the base which failed, and I blowing up the base. We have exactly the same chance to win or lose. So I don't know why you keep insisting it is impossible to beat the reapers. Are you not going to play ME3 and try at least?

Nope. Forst of all, you dont' know if things will go wrong. You don't. So stop talking rubbish.

It's Cerberus, somethings going to go wrong.  Even their successes; Lazarus, Teltin, Overlord, etc. are massive screw ups.  Now I gave them the base but I'm not under any delusions about what's going to happen.  Anything we do manage to get from the base is going to come with a very high body count and probably some major catastrophy.  You know like Rachni being secretly unleashed upon the galaxy or a virus that could start the machine apocalypse.

I'm thinking they're going to collapse the galactic core, drawing the rest of the galaxy with it, and Shepard will swoop in to save the day...somehow.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You have nothing, we have something.

No, people who destroy the base still appear to have the schematics of a Reaper, which as I said is all you can really expect to get from a Reaper manufacturing facility; detailed information on the inner workings of the Reapers.  The only other piece of info you might get from the base is better understanding of how the Reapers control the Collectors, which could be useful but it's not really a "win the war" kinda useful.

I'm not somebody who gave them the base because I think it's valuable or we'll get something great out of it; I did it to maintain goodwill with my only sure ally against the Reapers (Quarians, Krogan, Rachni, Geth are all possibilities not certainties).  And having seen the E3 demos I can see how well that turned out.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Cerberus keeping the base is not faliure, since Cerberus will be fighting reapers too.

 Have I missed something because, like I said E3.  I've gone on a media blackout since because ME2's marketing was just spoilerific so I'd rather not be disappointed before I even get the game.

[Ravensword]

Darth Death wrote...

Saphra Deden & lotion on a rampage yet again:)

[Another_Golden_Dragon]

I destroyed the Base for two reasons.

1, when I first got to that point, I went on-line and looked around. All info that I could find pointed to that choice being the Paragon path/option.

2. I wanted out from under Cerberus' dominion, and destroying it simply because The Illusive Man said he wanted it seemed like a good way to go....

As for the final canon, at least as regards the base: I will be starting a new run-thru of ME 1 & 2 shortly before 3/6/2012. By the time I get there, the results of such (destroy or preserve) will be all over the forums. Then. I'll know best what to do.

Then put a bullet in the Illusive Man's skull. And again for good measure. And again just for fun.

[BlueMagitek]

So you didn't really make your own choice in a game where making your own choice is meant to be a selling point...

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Saphra Deden wrote...

People who are confident we can defeat the Reapers are either ignorant and/or meta-gaming. I was confident too... until I thought about the situation in detail and realized how hopeless it was. It was depressing.

Indoctrinated much?

[Someone With Mass]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

People who are confident we can defeat the Reapers are either ignorant and/or meta-gaming. I was confident too... until I thought about the situation in detail and realized how hopeless it was. It was depressing.

Indoctrinated much?

Don't you know? 

Meta-gaming is their answer to everyone's opinions that are opposing theirs.

[Medhia Nox]

@Someone With Mass: along with "reverse engineering" - "logic" - "idiot" - Saphra's special own "**** you!" - "stop being self-righteous" - "stop thinking about yourself" - "ends justifies the means".

You guys really are wasting time - just write something, and then play ad libs with any of the above replies, then don't even bother posting. It's just like talking to Saphra and Lotion. It's saved me tons of time.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 13 décembre 2011 - 02:05 .

[Ravensword]

No, I think we should let them continue beating this dead horse. It's quite entertaining.

[BlueMagitek]

Dead space horse; get it right.

[Medhia Nox]

space... cause it's science fiction... get it?

hehe

[BlueMagitek]

Yes, that is indeed the joke. In space.

[DoNotTrololo]

ME3 TIM is stupid. I knows this.

[Ravensword]

DoNotTrololo wrote...

ME3 TIM is stupid. I knows this.

That's space stupidity.

[Medhia Nox]

space - cause it's science fiction... get it?

====

Hey Ravensword - in your pic, which one is Saphra and which one is Lotion? 

I vote Saphra for the little Asian girl. Looks like she's saying: "**** YOU!" 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 13 décembre 2011 - 03:35 .