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[BellaStrega]

Seboist wrote...

BellaStrega wrote...

Except for the last two posts, the last two pages are the best I've read in this thread.

It's kind of amazing to me that this argument is still going on, and the "keep the base" types are still unwilling to see any perspective but their own.

Easy to do when the "alternative" is wanting to beat the reapers with good intentions.

Now, see, this is where the damned carousel starts. It never stops, so I ain't getting on.

[Seboist]

BellaStrega wrote...

Seboist wrote...

BellaStrega wrote...

Except for the last two posts, the last two pages are the best I've read in this thread.

It's kind of amazing to me that this argument is still going on, and the "keep the base" types are still unwilling to see any perspective but their own.

Easy to do when the "alternative" is wanting to beat the reapers with good intentions.

Now, see, this is where the damned carousel starts. It never stops, so I ain't getting on.

You already saddled up without knowing.

[DRACO1130]

meaningless.

ONLY the Normandy has the reaper IFF

ONLY Shepard controls access thru the Omega 4 relay

saved base or blown it - no difference.

Of course, if you saved it and are trying to use it and the reapers return......well yer screwed.

[BellaStrega]

Seboist wrote...

BellaStrega wrote...

Seboist wrote...

BellaStrega wrote...

Except for the last two posts, the last two pages are the best I've read in this thread.

It's kind of amazing to me that this argument is still going on, and the "keep the base" types are still unwilling to see any perspective but their own.

Easy to do when the "alternative" is wanting to beat the reapers with good intentions.

Now, see, this is where the damned carousel starts. It never stops, so I ain't getting on.

You already saddled up without knowing.

Truthfully, that's what frightens me the most. Compared to that, a Reaper invasion is a sunday picnic.

[Lotion Soronarr]

jreezy wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Cerberus is fighting the reapers in ME3. It's just they and Shep have different ideas on how to do it.

"The enemy of my enemy is my enemy." isn''t the best way to go about fighting the Reapers. They're helping them more than anything else as far as we've been told.

While, the change of text color doen't seem to work so I can't hide spoilers, but let's just say the Cerberus plan is ambitious, audacious and it works.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DRACO1130 wrote...

base destroyed or not - either way you get the data pad from Joker in final scene of ME2 - shows reaper tech readouts which normandy(EDI) took from base

Normandy riddled with data collection nodes - what normandy knows Illusive man already knows - Only advantage - Normandy is ONLY ship with reaper IFF - any way you slice it - Ilusive man cannto get to the base - only shepheard can via Omega 4 relay with the reaper IFF -

Actually since TIM sends ships to the base, evidently he copied the IFF as soon you you got it.

Also, the datapad shows a profile of a repaer. Nothing more.

ME3 however - reapers return - BAD idea to have base remain - let alone be at/on it when a Reaper comes knocking at the door.

Why? We laready established the base as a non-factor in the reaper war if it's on the reaper side.

[Labrev]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Threatening to pull is plug is hardly a bad decision. People do it all the time for projects everywhere.
And the mistake wasn't strapping David in, it was not letting the poor sod sleep.

Oversight is not the same as omniscense.[/quote]

Why not put the same amount of surveillance on that cell as he did the SR2? If he saw what was going on, he'd know not to bother them and force their hand into having David plugged into the VI.





[quote]
No, they can't. Sheppard (and by extension the Alliance) has the IFF.
The only entrance and exit to the base is known.[/quote]

History repeats itself now. Post-Battle-of-the-Citadel, Alliance suffered losses and were stretched thin, too much so to take action against the Collector threat. The Collectors: not big in force, but advanced in tech. That is Cerberus with the base.



[quote]Except Morodin developed a defense agaisnt it in 1 day. Whoopdy do.[/quote]

A defense only on a small-scale (and were lucky it worked out in their first experimental test against the swarms). On a large-scale, they barely got through a chamber overridden with them (with the help of an asari with biotic strength bordering on a matriarch's, and the strongest human biotic, any other option took a casualty).




[quote]Slavery is temporay, extinction is permanent.
If I'm a slave, I can fight and gain freedom. If I'm dead I can't. I'm neither free nor alive.

Now I know you live in fantasy land where Cerberus can magicly take over and ensalve the galaxy, but us sensible people like to focus on things that are actually possible and/or credible.[/quote]

Let me reiterate: we exist because (the Reapers) allow it, and we perish because (the Reapers) demand it - just to use Sovereign's own words. That is little more than slavery, and up to now it has not been a temporary condition.


This aside from the fact that to slavery is not just so easily overcome. It may involve generations of sacrifice before it is lifted.

I'm only going off what we've seen first-hand, a small race of drones with little functional intelligence was a large-scale galactic menace with the base's gifts alone. Cerberus is already a nuissance. Whether or not you want to make this simple logical connection is up to you.





[quote][quote]Per Mordin - no vital systems, everything's replaced by tech. As far as we know, they are clones like Grunt is supposedly a clone: ready to fight.[/quote]

And Grunt eats. Grunt needs equipment. He needs transportation.

Armies - any army - requires an upkeep and an backing infrastructure.[/quote]

Every successful mission Grunt assists me on brings about credits and random resources, all of which I can use towards providing for him and more.



[quote]You are wrong. I can prove our defeat is FAR more likely without the base. Heck, I can practicly guarantee our defeat.[/quote]

Try it.


[quote][quote]As far as you've asserted, you don't believe the tech from the base could protect Cerberus against efforts by the Council/Alliance to wipe them out, and you think it gives us a fighting chance against the Reapers?[/quote]

Yes. Because the advantage of tech is also in it's profileration.
Critical mass. Cerberus lacks it. Cerberus can't make effective use of that tech alone.[/quote]

Did the Collectors proliferate their tech? Do the Reapers?



[quote]Attempting to survive is never a wrong decision.
You have already faield ultimatively.[/quote]

Not if the attempt was dagerous enough to warrant caution and then ultimately ended up costing your survival you otherwise could have done so.



[quote]So your plan is "something will turn up"? Later. Once the war already starts. Once we already sustain so much losses that it will be too late for new tech to turn the tide (history is full of such examples)

That's not an alternative. I'm glad you finally admitt you have nothing. Your plans are as empty as your future.[/quote]

And if the base is not enough, is your plan any different?

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 13 décembre 2011 - 05:27 .

[Ryzaki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Uh...Shep did know about the Reapers at that moment. Shep's vision was made apparent to him (or at least the part where the Reapers slaughtered the protheans before vanishing and Saren was trying to bring them back) before he even left the Citadel the first time. He figures it out when Tali plays the recording. He didn't know Sovereign was a Reaper until Virmire though. But he was always aware that the Reapers were coming. (Thus his speech at the end of ME1)

Shepard's vision of the Reapers at the time was just 'bad things.' The whole extinction cycle and sentient-AI's-with-brainwashing doesn't get revealed until Virmire.

What we are dealing with is a bit different from 'Reapers exist and are bad', which is the generalism Dave was referring to.

Actually it does get revealed before then. When Shep picks up Liara she's the one who mentions the cycle. Sure she doesn't know about the Reapers but she does know several species in the past have gotten to a certain point before mysteriously vanishing (just like the Protheans) It's not that hard to put one and one together. (Replaying ME1 and yeah...sorry about late post). Sure it *could* be something else that causes the species to vanish...but either way it's best to prepare for a fight.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 décembre 2011 - 05:43 .

[AlexXIV]

I say keeping this thread is a mistake. Let's blow it up.

[BlueMagitek]

Hey now, the thread is only data; blowing it up will not bring back any of the arguments, but saving it may prevent further discord.

[Ice Cold J]

It might be an advantage, but I don't care too much. I still ahve the Council and the Rachni to back me up.
At least two of my Sheapards are keeping the base, but my main Shep isn't.

[Ice Cold J]

[quote]Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...



[quote]You are wrong. I can prove our defeat is FAR more likely without the base. Heck, I can practicly guarantee our defeat.[/quote]

Try it.

[/quote]

Amen

Modifié par Ice Cold J, 13 décembre 2011 - 07:58 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Threatening to pull is plug is hardly a bad decision. People do it all the time for projects everywhere.
And the mistake wasn't strapping David in, it was not letting the poor sod sleep.

Oversight is not the same as omniscense.[/quote]

Why not put the same amount of surveillance on that cell as he did the SR2? If he saw what was going on, he'd know not to bother them and force their hand into having David plugged into the VI.[/quote]

Because resources are limited? Just becasue hte US cna put advanced survailence cams in some places, doesnt' mean they cna put them in all places.
Because he dind't think he needed to?

As I say again - hidsight.
It's easy to say "you should have done X differently" when you know what went wrong.





[quote][quote]
No, they can't. Sheppard (and by extension the Alliance) has the IFF.
The only entrance and exit to the base is known.[/quote]

History repeats itself now. Post-Battle-of-the-Citadel, Alliance suffered losses and were stretched thin, too much so to take action against the Collector threat. The Collectors: not big in force, but advanced in tech. That is Cerberus with the base.[/quote]

Don't go into the history repeats itself route, lest you want me to shower you with historical exmaples of forces unwilling to adapt and loosing. Or forces unwillign to compromise nad loosing.

As for the collectors - all the colonies are fringe colonies. The Alliance had minimal presence there, and really couldn't send in it's fleets just like that. Remeber the Terminus systems powers? They don't like warships near their borders.
The alliance did send a frigate or two.
And it didn't even know the collectors were behind it, and didn't have the means to follow them.

Cerberus on the other hand, is a completely different beast.



[quote]
[quote]Except Morodin developed a defense agaisnt it in 1 day. Whoopdy do.[/quote]A defense only on a small-scale (and were lucky it worked out in their first experimental test against the swarms). On a large-scale, they barely got through a chamber overridden with them (with the help of an asari with biotic strength bordering on a matriarch's, and the strongest human biotic, any other option took a casualty).[/quote]

A defense that worked. A defense that could be improved. And a defense that worked under normal conditions.
The Collector base had a far, far greater density of seeker swarms.



[quote]
[quote]Slavery is temporay, extinction is permanent.
If I'm a slave, I can fight and gain freedom. If I'm dead I can't. I'm neither free nor alive.

Now I know you live in fantasy land where Cerberus can magicly take over and ensalve the galaxy, but us sensible people like to focus on things that are actually possible and/or credible.[/quote]

Let me reiterate: we exist because (the Reapers) allow it, and we perish because (the Reapers) demand it - just to use Sovereign's own words. That is little more than slavery, and up to now it has not been a temporary condition.

This aside from the fact that to slavery is not just so easily overcome. It may involve generations of sacrifice before it is lifted.[/quote]

You saiyng it's not worth fighting for freedom?
I really don't get it what oure trying to say here.


[quote]
I'm only going off what we've seen first-hand, a small race of drones with little functional intelligence was a large-scale galactic menace with the base's gifts alone. Cerberus is already a nuissance. Whether or not you want to make this simple logical connection is up to you.[/quote]

The Collectors weren't a galactic menace. They were a nusiance.
A single ship that can be taken out by a high-tech frigate and a few thousand troops are not a "menace".
The Collectors were hiding and avoiding any confrontation.



[quote]
And Grunt eats. Grunt needs equipment. He needs transportation.

Armies - any army - requires an upkeep and an backing infrastructure.[/quote]

Every successful mission Grunt assists me on brings about credits and random resources, all of which I can use towards providing for him and more.[/quote]


Yes.. and it also brings you experience points with which you can purchase skills...
Be frakkin serious. that gameplay mechanic. It doesn't work that way realisticy.

And I don't think you understand what those "resources" are.
I don't think you understand the support and logistics infrastructure behind armies at all...



[quote]
[quote]You are wrong. I can prove our defeat is FAR more likely without the base. Heck, I can practicly guarantee our defeat.[/quote]Try it.
[/quote]

I already listed a LOOONG list of reaper advantages. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together and even a minimal understanding of strategy should see this war is unwinnable as it is.

So what exactly you got? Willpower and good intentions don't cut it..



[quote][quote]
Yes. Because the advantage of tech is also in it's profileration.
Critical mass. Cerberus lacks it. Cerberus can't make effective use of that tech alone.[/quote]

Did the Collectors proliferate their tech? Do the Reapers?[/quote]

Collectors didn't engage in open war. They were hiding and stealgn things, so no. They didn't need to.
Reaper - yes. Their tech is used in everything. And they come in the thousands.

To make it simpler for you to undersand - 10 Cerberus transports or 1000 troops with new guns and shield won't make a noticable difference. Spread that tech among a 100 warships or million troops - and you may be getting somewhere.



[quote]
[quote]Attempting to survive is never a wrong decision.
You have already faield ultimatively.[/quote]

Not if the attempt was dagerous enough to warrant caution and then ultimately ended up costing your survival you otherwise could have done so.[/quote]

It wasn't. My survival was already practicly impossible.
I take a risk and maybe die, or I don't take a risk and die. It's very simple.


[quote]
[quote]So your plan is "something will turn up"? Later. Once the war already starts. Once we already sustain so much losses that it will be too late for new tech to turn the tide (history is full of such examples)

That's not an alternative. I'm glad you finally admitt you have nothing. Your plans are as empty as your future.[/quote]

And if the base is not enough, is your plan any different?
[/quote]

Yes. Because I have something CONCRETE on which to base my plans. Because I have something tangible. something that can logicly work. Something that has good chances of sucess. something that's based on proven patterns and past experince (every single time we studied repaer tech, we ended up with a gain. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. no exceptions)
The base is a physical object. It exists. The technology inside it exists and we seen it in action. We know it works.
I'm grasping for something that IS there and that CAN yeild concrete results - and I'm trying to do it BEFORE the reapers arrive and rape our fleets and crush our capacity to wage war. This is a fact.


You twiddle your thumbs...
Gambling that something (unspecified) may turn up.
Gambling that that something is something you can grasp/sieze/reach in the first place. During a war with a strategily superior opponent.
Gambling that if you find anything, it will be in time.
Gambling that by that time, you will have enough strength to actually use it.

....

So you wait and reapers come..and nothing pops up for oyu to take advantage of. Everyone dies.

Let's say something does pop up. A reaper carcass you can study. Except the other reapers are guarding it an you can't get to it. Everyone dies.

Let's say you do manage to get to the carcass. With reapers everywhere and an indoctrination ramapge - what happens if you get nothing? Everyone dies.

Let's say you do finally manage to find a super gun - but by now 90% of your fleets and shipyards and outposts are gone. You don't have any means to assert space superiority anymore. Everyone dies.

...

Yes, the difference couldn't be bigger if I tried.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 13 décembre 2011 - 09:19 .

[Gimli444]

I did it both ways, looking forward to seeing how they play out differently!

[Another_Golden_Dragon]

jreezy wrote...

Another_Golden_Dragon wrote...

I destroyed the Base for two reasons.

1, when I first got to that point, I went on-line and looked around. All info that I could find pointed to that choice being the Paragon path/option.

2. I wanted out from under Cerberus' dominion, and destroying it simply because The Illusive Man said he wanted it seemed like a good way to go....

As for the final canon, at least as regards the base: I will be starting a new run-thru of ME 1 & 2 shortly before 3/6/2012. By the time I get there, the results of such (destroy or preserve) will be all over the forums. Then. I'll know best what to do.

Then put a bullet in the Illusive Man's skull. And again for good measure. And again just for fun.

Meta-gaming takes the fun out of the decision. I could never purposely play like that.

True, takes all the fun out of the suspense of not knowing.

However, that will be for THAT runthru.  the Canon Shepard run will blow the base, Kill TIM, and live with the consequenses.

[Labrev]

[quote][quote]Let me reiterate: we exist because (the Reapers) allow it, and we perish because (the Reapers) demand it - just to use Sovereign's own words. That is little more than slavery, and up to now it has not been a temporary condition.

This aside from the fact that to slavery is not just so easily overcome. It may involve generations of sacrifice before it is lifted.[/quote]

You saiyng it's not worth fighting for freedom?
I really don't get it what oure trying to say here.[/quote]

What I'm saying is, it's not worth it to try to solve the problem by creating a new one that's even close to the same level a threat. You're replacing slavery with slavery all over again. It's not worth fighting for survival, if the new scenario brings about a threat that can kill you just as easily. You fight for freedom from the threat completely.


[quote]The Collectors weren't a galactic menace. They were a nusiance.
A single ship that can be taken out by a high-tech frigate and a few thousand troops are not a "menace".
The Collectors were hiding and avoiding any confrontation.[/quote]

You're downplaying what they were (to downplay the potential threat Cerberus would pose in their place). They were literally carrying out harvesting on behalf of the Reapers.

The Collectors didn't fight because they didn't have to, the swarms did the work for them. As it were though, they were armed and well-enough prepared to handle combat, even if there was a disparity between how advanced they were and how easy they were to defeat in the game (writer fail).


[quote][quote]Every successful mission Grunt assists me on brings about credits and random resources, all of which I can use towards providing for him and more.[/quote]


Yes.. and it also brings you experience points with which you can purchase skills...
Be frakkin serious. that gameplay mechanic. It doesn't work that way realisticy.

And I don't think you understand what those "resources" are.
I don't think you understand the support and logistics infrastructure behind armies at all...[/quote]

No, it's not rocket science. You win a battle, you acquire crap. Like, the Collector Base itself from the O4-mission.


[quote][quote]
[quote]You are wrong. I can prove our defeat is FAR more likely without the base. Heck, I can practicly guarantee our defeat.[/quote]Try it.
[/quote]

I already listed a LOOONG list of reaper advantages. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together and even a minimal understanding of strategy should see this war is unwinnable as it is.

So what exactly you got? Willpower and good intentions don't cut it..[/quote]

The claims you are making here are based on impression, not actual knowledge of the enemy past the basic stuff we know. I'm not claiming to know that we have a chance, I'm just not acting like I know enough to deciedly say one way or the other.

When's the last time they invaded w/o the Citadel surprise-attack? When's the last time they had to enter the galaxy from dark space and face likely all living species fighting against them?


[quote]Collectors didn't engage in open war. They were hiding and stealgn things, so no. They didn't need to.
Reaper - yes. Their tech is used in everything. And they come in the thousands.

To make it simpler for you to undersand - 10 Cerberus transports or 1000 troops with new guns and shield won't make a noticable difference. Spread that tech among a 100 warships or million troops - and you may be getting somewhere.[/quote]

[further response would involve spoilers to reinforce predictable outcome]


[quote]It wasn't. My survival was already practicly impossible.
I take a risk and maybe die, or I don't take a risk and die. It's very simple.[/quote]

No it isn't. You can't even prove conclusively that we die out in the war without it (past impression-based speculation). That much is unknown. So if you're using that invalid conclusion to take this gamble, and it turns out we did have a chance afterall and you ruined it with that decision, then it should not have been taken period.



[quote][quote][quote]So your plan is "something will turn up"? Later. Once the war already starts. Once we already sustain so much losses that it will be too late for new tech to turn the tide (history is full of such examples)

That's not an alternative. I'm glad you finally admitt you have nothing. Your plans are as empty as your future[/quote]

And if the base is not enough, is your plan any different?[/quote]

Yes. (...snip)[/quote]


So what's your plan if the base renders nothing?

As for the stuff I cut, frankly, yes. We need a lot of luck, and need to be resourceful enough to capitalize on it if we hope to pull it off. Would you not agree?

[DPSSOC]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Nope. Forst of all, you dont' know if things will go wrong. You don't. So stop talking rubbish.[/quote]

It's Cerberus, somethings going to go wrong.  Even their successes; Lazarus, Teltin, Overlord, etc. are massive screw ups.  Now I gave them the base but I'm not under any delusions about what's going to happen.  Anything we do manage to get from the base is going to come with a very high body count and probably some major catastrophy.  You know like Rachni being secretly unleashed upon the galaxy or a virus that could start the machine apocalypse.[/quote]

Bollocks.
Facts prove you wrong. Tehre's plenty of hteir research and missiosn to go off perfectly. Also, having a traitor turn on you AFTER the reasearch is compelte is not a research faliure. Having your scientists indoctrinated after tehy compelted their task is not a research faliure.[/quote]

Except that the Lazarus Project wasn't complete.  It's pointed out by Jacob and Miranda that you weren't done yet.  Also I never said any of those projects failed, they got the desired results, but you'll note that next to none of the people who participated in those projects survived to reap the benefits of their work.  As for successful projects that don't have a massive casualty list care to offer a few?

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You have nothing, we have something.[/quote]

No, people who destroy the base still appear to have the schematics of a Reaper, which as I said is all you can really expect to get from a Reaper manufacturing facility; detailed information on the inner workings of the Reapers.  The only other piece of info you might get from the base is better understanding of how the Reapers control the Collectors, which could be useful but it's not really a "win the war" kinda useful.[/quote]

So a picture of a reaper is suddenly "valubale chematics". Thet didn't look liek schematics to me.[/quote]

Hmm re-reading what I wrote and, surprise, I never once used to the word valuable, perhaps you should stop making up things to argue against, it'll save you a lot of wear and tear.  As for the image I see a detailed depiction of a Reaper from 3 perspectives (side, top, front) with annotations, and having spent many years making working drawings of various pieces of equipment that's generally how they open up.  You start with an overview of the object (perspectives and an axonometric representation) then explode it into component parts (showing how they connect) and follow it up with detail drawings of each component part. 

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And the idioticy of claiming that reaper schematics is all we can get....laughable.
We can get so much more.[/quote]

Such as?

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Tell me, if I data mine your conmputer, will I get the schematics for your conputer? Can I build it from scratch after that? No?[/quote]

Tell me, what data do you expect there to be in a facility with the sole purpose of constructing a Reaper.  My computer only has information that I need/want it to have on it.  If my computer's sole purpose was to run machinery to build other computers what exactly would you expect to find?

Seriously make your case for why there'd be information on that base pertaining to anything other than Reaper construction/Collector control.  You have my undivided attention.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Cerberus keeping the base is not faliure, since Cerberus will be fighting reapers too.[/quote]

 Have I missed something because, like I said E3.  I've gone on a media blackout since because ME2's marketing was just spoilerific so I'd rather not be disappointed before I even get the game.[/quote]

Cerberus is fighting the reapers in ME3. It's just they and Shep have different ideas on how to do it.
[/quote]

Source?  I apologize for not taking your word for it but I've seen a lot of Cerberus supporters who can't differentiate what they want reality to be from what it actually is when it comes to Cerberus.  Pro-Council/Alliance people do the same thing but since Bioware's on their side they tend to be wrong less often.

[vvDRUCILLAvv]

Cerberus supporters kinda remind me of Democrats.

[Medhia Nox]

On average - they remind me of the followers of the Peoples Temple.

[DiebytheSword]

DPSSOC wrote...
Source?  I apologize for not taking your word for it but I've seen a lot of Cerberus supporters who can't differentiate what they want reality to be from what it actually is when it comes to Cerberus.  Pro-Council/Alliance people do the same thing but since Bioware's on their side they tend to be wrong less often.

He is correct here, at least regarding the leaked files from the beta.  I won't go into detail, but TIM is working against the reapers, just in a different way from Shepard.

[feliciano2040]

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Cerberus supporters kinda remind me of Democrats.

Confused. My mind is.

[DPSSOC]

DiebytheSword wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Source?  I apologize for not taking your word for it but I've seen a lot of Cerberus supporters who can't differentiate what they want reality to be from what it actually is when it comes to Cerberus.  Pro-Council/Alliance people do the same thing but since Bioware's on their side they tend to be wrong less often.

He is correct here, at least regarding the leaked files from the beta.  I won't go into detail, but TIM is working against the reapers, just in a different way from Shepard.

Fair enough.  I mentioned earlier I'm on media blackout because ME2's marketing was just done horribly (too many ruined surprises).  I saw the E3 demos and I seem to recall it being mentioned they were working with the Reapers; that could just be my bad memory though.

[Subferro]

The enemy of my enemy being my friend is only valid if I can expect them to fall in line when our common enemy is gone. Cerberus doesn't even wait for the Reaper war to end before becoming an issue. No way am I going to just hand over their ticket to galactic domination.

Collaborate with the Russians just so we can develop the bomb faster? No thanks.

[Ravensword]

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

Cerberus supporters kinda remind me of National Socialists.

Fixed.