1667 réponses à ce sujet

[khordlambert]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

All the reasons to not trust Cerberus, not trust TIM, and not hand over the Collector Base, have been given over and over, and no matter what reason is given, the Cerberus fans will find a way to dismiss that reason and cling to it. "Oh that wasn't Cerberus" or "oh that branch had gone rogue" or "oh that's just the price of success" or...

Honestly, after how many times I've seen the "they went rogue" thing pop up, I can say with all certanty it just made Cerberus look WORSE to me. After a point I can't help but think that either we are being lied to by any in game character making that claim, or TIM can't keep control over his own freaking organization (Which, according to EDI he keeps small so he can mantain control).

Either way, it does not paint a good picture to me.

[Northernian]

That final decision in collector base will have a major consequence in ME3. Although I can only predict how Bioware play that out. Cerberus is indoctrinated alright, and maybe then some.

[GodWood]

khordlambert wrote...
Honestly, after how many times I've seen the "they went rogue" thing pop up, I can say with all certanty it just made Cerberus look WORSE to me.

How many times does it pop up, twice?

Northernian wrote...
That final decision in collector base will have a major consequence in ME3. Although I can only predict how Bioware play that out. Cerberus is indoctrinated alright, and maybe then some.

It doesn't

[Lotion Soronarr]

Luc0s wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Luc0s wrote...
Your analogy completely fails BECAUSE the choice in your analogy is so damn obvious. Why in the world would anyone jump without a parachute? Is there ANY reason to do something like that? NO!

The base choice is also damn obvious.
Of course, one must have a minimal capacity for processing rational thought to see that.

Oh really? Then tell me, if it's so damn obvious, than why do so many players (I guess more than 60% of all players) choose to destroy the base?

Maybe it's so damn obvious that keeping the base is a dumb thing to do? No, I don't think so, else I would have destroyed the base myself (which I didn't).

Seriously, this choice is NOT so obvious as you think it is. Of course, one must have a minimal capacity of processing rational thought to see that.

For the same reason people have argued agaisnt proven facts for eons. For the same reasons we have "elvis is alive", "Earth is 6000 year old", "creationists" and argumetns over any subject under the sun, regardless how much or little it is backed up by fact.
Because humans have a marvelous ability to ingore any evidence they don't like and turn their oppinions and pre-conceptions into facts in their head. Because humans refuse to admit they are wrong even when faced with facts (in fuct, a study shows that many become even more entrentched in their oppinion when shown proof of opposite).

The choice is obvious.
I have stated why. I have backed it up with actual fact, examples and numbers.

You have not backed up your claims with anything. Because you can't.
You lost this argument long before it even started.

Which is why the choice is equal. TIM doesn't fail EVERY TIME but it does fail quite often and TIM always causes collateral damage.

Thus the choice is not so obvious. Will TIM succeed with the Collector Base? Or will he fail and cause a lot of trouble? Will TIM help us with the Collector Base, or will he betray us and bite us in the ass?

Everyone fails sometimes. Any every instance of us researching reper tech was a huge win for us.
The choice is obvious.

The "TIM Betrayl" is an irrational idea, based soley on dislike of TIM and CErberus. It is illogical to assume high probabiltiy of someone betrying you when you both are engaged in a battle of survival agaist a far superior opponent that will kill you both. TIM knows what happens to reper "servants".
Betrayl is a highly unlogical and unlikely action.
Yet your fear resides on TIM acting illogicly, and you're not backing it up with anything.
It's basicly "he will betray us because he's eeeevul. Yes, its stupid, Yes, it doesn't make sense. Yes, tis not something any sensible individual would do. And yes, I'm gonan base my decisions on this retarded way of thinking"

I could just as easily say the Council or Alliance will betray us (tehy might sacrifice us to ensure their own survival) - and thus working with them or giving them the base is a stupid move.

Every single instance of anyone researching reaper tech ended with a net gain for us (protheans and the Citadel, Arrival, IFF, EDI, Thanix). EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.
Without exception..

The Citadel nearly caused our total destruction if it wasn't for the Protheans who managed to screw up the cycle of the reapers using the Citadel to cause genocide upon the galaxy.

Object Rho (Arrival) nearly destroyed Shepard and the Normany.

The IFF destroyed an entire team of Cerberus. It was also a trap that nearly destroyed Shepard's plans when the Collectors raided the Normandy.

Can't say much about EDI and Thanix, those 2 things seem to have worked out fine.

Net gain. You do not seem to understand what that means aprently.

Your pathetic attempt at a rebuttal is funny.

Citadel research prevented the next extinction cycle - huge with for the galaxy. And not that it's not the Citadel research that nearly caused our extinction. It's exactly the OPPOSITE. No one bothered to research the Citadel in detail.

Object Rho delayed them for months, giving us time to prepare - huge win
IFF enables us to take out the reapers - huge win
EDI, Thanix - huge win

Evidently, the risk payed off every time.

Point is, that studying reaper tech doesn't go without risk, that much is obvious. Every single time we meddle in reaper tech, we're taking risks. So far we had an amazing amount of luck, but one day, this meddling with reaper tech will go horribly wrong. I'm aware of these risks, are you?

Yes, I am.
You are obviously not.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

Saphra, you know how traps work? Traps usually don't have big signs warning you to not get close because it could be dangerous. Traps try hard to look innocent and/or friendly. And then at some point SNAP! no return, no escape.

You don't need to know how exactly a trap works if you are warned that there is a trap, or could be a trap. You just try to avoid everything that seems risky. Or too risky. We have more or less been warned by he Protheans and Geth. Those who know more about Reapers than anyone. They warned us that using Reaper tech is ... um ... not desireable. Because using their tech leads us down a path that the Reapers planned for us. Hell it may even be that people who use it are less resistant to their indoctrination. Which would coincede with most people being exposed to their tech for a longer time turn up as husks or indoctrinated.

You just need to read the signs on the wall.

Youre reading the signs on the wall incorrectly.

Warnings? By Protheans and Geth?

Reaper
tech is not evil or undesirable in itself. You take what Legion said as a
gospel and interpret it literaly to it's (i)logical extreeme.

"Developing
along hte paths we desire" means being dependant on mass relays. Which
means you haven't your own FTL, so when they shut down the relays the
reaces are strandded and isolated. That's it.

It does NOT mean having better shields, better guns and poking trough repaer reamains and their secret base.
That is definately the tech they don't want us to have, because it's their personal tech. A reaper will have the ebst tech availalbe to reapers.

So your entire argument here is silly.

Just because it went well so far doesn't mean it could not be a trap. It could as well mean that it is a rather well developed trap. I mean really, see how often people repeat how much we need the base and the tech to win this war. Isn't it obvious? Isn't it the cheese the mouse wants so badly. Presented openly, with seemingly nobody guarding. So you may think you can chew on the cheese without setting it off just enough to fill your belly and run off. May work, or it may break your neck.

I sometimes find it funny that people deny the possibility that an obvious choice could as well mean an obvious trap.

IF it's a trap, it's the stupidest and most convoluted trap EVER.

Not only i'ts a trap that no one actually entered in millions of years (making it useless), but also it's so well hidden that no one even knows it's there (making it even more useless) and the trap involves us finding the best of their tech and killing one of their own, and loosing a base in a very hard to reach location....

If that is a trap, then the reapers are the greatest morons ever....

[Lotion Soronarr]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

All the reasons to not trust Cerberus, not trust TIM, and not hand over the Collector Base, have been given over and over, and no matter what reason is given, the Cerberus fans will find a way to dismiss that reason and cling to it. "Oh that wasn't Cerberus" or "oh that branch had gone rogue" or "oh that's just the price of success" or...

And those reasons are garbage and not enough.

See my reply to Alex above for why.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Luc0s wrote...
No it isn't.


My evidence:

- The rachni are powerful warriors. Really powerful. That is obvious.

- The rachni once were a galactic-wide threat. But this time they're on our side and thus are a threat aganst the reapers this time.

- Yes, there is one queen, but she already populated an entire planet in ME2. You've seen how fast she spawns offspring in ME1. The queen was active for only a couple of days and already the lab was overflown with rachni.

- Also, even 2000 extra rachni to aid us in battle, is still better than 0 extra rachni to aid us.

Powerfull warriors are irrelevant. Reapers are giants spaceships. You need things to take out warships. You need a navy. Really big guns. Ground troops are irrelevant.

And given how easily the reachni can be indoctrianted..I'd say you are wrong on your assesment on their utility.
Still, we could use all the help we can get.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 16 décembre 2011 - 08:05 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

111987 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I've read a million ****ing times. It is an argument built on assumptions and meta-knowledge. I'm more concerned with the choice as it is presented in-game

Save the Council = Nice but you'll be weaker vs Sovereign

Let them die = Mean but you'll be stronger vs Sovereign

it doesn't rely on metagaming. The DA was said to be the strongest ship in the galaxy in a non-skippable cutscene ate the beginning of the game. You can choose to save it, or let it be destroyed.

Personally i'm gonna bank on the idea that the DA will be more useful against Sovereign than even a dozen extra frigates. Of course, the DA doesn't end up fighting Sovereign, but Shep doesn't know that at the time.

It's still a silly argument.

DA might be usefull (but it was damaged so it's use was limited), but tha't ultimatively beside the point. By wasting time to save it, you're giving Sovereing more time to open the realy.

If he does that, the DA will be meaningless. The point isn't to destroy Sovereign - the point is to destroy it FAST. Time is the issue.
And given that Sovereigns incredible defenses were unknown at that point.....

[Lotion Soronarr]

111987 wrote...

The DA is a dreadnaught, actually. And while its main gun might be useless, dreadnaughts have more than just one weapon. Alliance dreadnaughts have dozens of smaller cannons, and the DA is twice the size. Not to mention its shields could soak up a lot of fire from Sovereign.

Sovereign can 1-shot dreadnought with it's main gun (Codex).
DA was damaged, and it's kinetic barreirs were almsot down.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 16 décembre 2011 - 08:12 .

[111987]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

111987 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I've read a million ****ing times. It is an argument built on assumptions and meta-knowledge. I'm more concerned with the choice as it is presented in-game

Save the Council = Nice but you'll be weaker vs Sovereign

Let them die = Mean but you'll be stronger vs Sovereign

it doesn't rely on metagaming. The DA was said to be the strongest ship in the galaxy in a non-skippable cutscene ate the beginning of the game. You can choose to save it, or let it be destroyed.

Personally i'm gonna bank on the idea that the DA will be more useful against Sovereign than even a dozen extra frigates. Of course, the DA doesn't end up fighting Sovereign, but Shep doesn't know that at the time.

It's still a silly argument.

DA might be usefull (but it was damaged so it's use was limited), but tha't ultimatively beside the point. By wasting time to save it, you're giving Sovereing more time to open the realy.

If he does that, the DA will be meaningless. The point isn't to destroy Sovereign - the point is to destroy it FAST. Time is the issue.
And given that Sovereigns incredible defenses were unknown at that point.....

Remember though, at the time the Citadel arms were closed. While the arms are closed, Sovereign is untouchable. So you might as well fight off the Geth while you're waiting.

[111987]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

111987 wrote...

The DA is a dreadnaught, actually. And while its main gun might be useless, dreadnaughts have more than just one weapon. Alliance dreadnaughts have dozens of smaller cannons, and the DA is twice the size. Not to mention its shields could soak up a lot of fire from Sovereign.

Sovereign can 1-shot dreadnought with it's main gun (Codex).
DA was damaged, and it's kinetic barreirs were almsot down.

Yes, but it's main gun is spinal-mounted, and since Sovereign was latched onto the tower, it wouldn't be able to manuver into proper firing position.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Subferro wrote...
I know it's a few pages old and we've moved on, but this is a good analogy to work with, so I thought I would make sure Saphra realizes that this still misses the point.

You and your insane partner are in a crashing plane. There's one parachute that may or may not work. You can either give it to your partner, or throw it out of the plane. If you give it to your partner, you still have to try and find a way down for yourself. Assuming you find nothing else of use in the plane, you're hoping the chute might open, and the other passenger might grab you on the way down and soften your fall. Of course he will also will probably kill you and  your family assuming you both safely land. 

The other option is to throw the 'chute out of the plane.  The other passenger frantically jumps after it, meanwhile, you have a chance to frantically scavange the plane for anything else that might save you (see: Indiana Jones). You also face the possibility that the other passenger managed to catch the falling parachute and get it to work, in which case he'll still try to kill you and your family, but you won't be at his mercy like you would be had he caught you as you both fell.

When you actually examine the choices, instead of grossly over-simplifying them (durr, destroying the base is like jumping without a parachute), they're not as far apart as you claim.

Worst analogy in the history of analogies ever.

First of all, you cannot use the parachute yourself.
The other guy can and tells you he will save you.

Yet for some redicolous reason you think he won't, even tough it makes no sense (as saving you benefits him too), and you think he'll kill you and your family - even when it doesn't make sense. Adn you think he'll kill you because he's not a nice person.

The choices are far apart. You ingoring the fact doesn't help your argument.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Luc0s wrote...

I think Subferro's analogy is better than Saphra's, and WAY better than that religious crap that other guy used for an analogy.

Mentioning the word God = religious crap?

You know, so far I only though you ignorant... it saddens me that you demonstrate you are worse than I thought.

[Someone With Mass]

111987 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I've read a million ****ing times. It is an argument built on assumptions and meta-knowledge. I'm more concerned with the choice as it is presented in-game

Save the Council = Nice but you'll be weaker vs Sovereign

Let them die = Mean but you'll be stronger vs Sovereign

it doesn't rely on metagaming. The DA was said to be the strongest ship in the galaxy in a non-skippable cutscene ate the beginning of the game. You can choose to save it, or let it be destroyed.

Personally i'm gonna bank on the idea that the DA will be more useful against Sovereign than even a dozen extra frigates. Of course, the DA doesn't end up fighting Sovereign, but Shep doesn't know that at the time.

Not to mention that there's nothing that stops the geth from utterly buttf*cking the Alliance ships when they're focusing on Sovereign.

I'd say it's a major tactical advantage to save the DA and destroy the majority of the geth ships (it's not that hard to figure out that they will be ignored if you tell the Alliance ships to go for Sovereign either, since they're busy with the DA) before going after the Citadel arms.

[Someone With Mass]

Arcian wrote...

In 10/10 cases, people who destroy the DA isn't doing so because they want to save the day, but because they're anti-alien hats of the ass variety who want the alien Council dead.

I got rid of them once because I was a little tired of them questioning my every move and wanted to see what happened.


Then I thought "since when are politicians pleasant to work with? I'll save their sorry asses. Could be useful later." so I decided to save them in the playthroughs that followed.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 16 décembre 2011 - 08:33 .

[Biotic Sage]

For all of the bickering in this thread, you have to realize that the good people at Bioware just take a quick glance at it, see that both end-game decisions are very polarizing, smile to themselves and say: "Mission Accomplished."

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 16 décembre 2011 - 08:38 .

[JosephDucreux]

Biotic Sage wrote...

For all of the bickering in this thread, you have to realize that the good people at Bioware just take a quick glance at it, see that both end-game decisions are very polarizing, smile to themselves and say: "Mission Accomplished."

This is what Bioware looks like, you maggots! Take a long, hard look before I kill you with your own frilly training bra!

Modifié par JosephDucreux, 16 décembre 2011 - 08:42 .

[Biotic Sage]

jreezy wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

For all of the bickering in this thread, you have to realize that Bioware just takes a quick glance at it, sees that both end-game decisions are very polarizing, smile to themselves and say: "Mission Accomplished."

I have a feeling you are correct, which is sad actually.

What's sad about it?  How it means that in the devs' world, this thread is a bat of an eyelash when some have poured their hearts and souls onto countless posts?  Or how it demonstrates the insignificance of the BSN?  Or when compounded with the insignificance of our own existence in the face of a vast and unknown universe, it illuminates the ultimate futility and tedium of these arguments?

[Biotic Sage]

jreezy wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

For all of the bickering in this thread, you have to realize that Bioware just takes a quick glance at it, sees that both end-game decisions are very polarizing, smile to themselves and say: "Mission Accomplished."

I have a feeling you are correct, which is sad actually.

What's sad about it?  How it means that in the devs' world, this thread is a bat of an eyelash when some have poured their hearts and souls onto countless posts?  Or how it demonstrates the insignificance of the BSN?  Or when compounded with the insignificance of our own existence in the face of a vast and unknown universe, it illuminates the ultimate futility and tedium of these arguments?

I actually misinterpreted your post a bit. Pay no attention to the "which is sad actually" part.

Haha I didn't even realize because I do think it is kind of sad.

[Biotic Sage]

jreezy wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

For all of the bickering in this thread, you have to realize that Bioware just takes a quick glance at it, sees that both end-game decisions are very polarizing, smile to themselves and say: "Mission Accomplished."

I have a feeling you are correct, which is sad actually.

What's sad about it?  How it means that in the devs' world, this thread is a bat of an eyelash when some have poured their hearts and souls onto countless posts?  Or how it demonstrates the insignificance of the BSN?  Or when compounded with the insignificance of our own existence in the face of a vast and unknown universe, it illuminates the ultimate futility and tedium of these arguments?

I actually misinterpreted your post a bit. Pay no attention to the "which is sad actually" part.

Haha I didn't even realize because I do think it is kind of sad.

Lol. I was actually thinking of the two end game choices themselves being polar opposites and BioWare thinking "mission accomplished". That is what I find sad, because it's too black and white to me.

Ah, yes.  They don't really give you a lot of room for finnesse or compromise.  On Horizon too.  I just want to explain to Ashley/Kaidan: "Look, I've been directed down a very linear plot path thus far.  I mean sure, I got to decide if I wanted to get Mordin or Garrus first, but really they just threw a ship at me loaded with people and resources ready to help me save the world, including my trusted friend/pilot and my loyal doctor.  It's kind of hard to say no to that.  If they had given me your number I would've called.  I even asked TIM and Anderson, but the sob's stonewalled me.  Throw me a bone here yo."  Alas, that was not a dialogue option.