1667 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Luc0s wrote...
So, just for you, I recap his analogy in a simple and short version:


You're terribly sick. You know you only have 6 months to live. You're looking for a cure, but you don't know where to find it. You don't even know if the cure exists. Then a mysterious man appears with a little bottle with an unknown potion. This strange man tells you his unknown potion is a cure for your disease. This man is willing to sell you this potion for.. say... 200 bucks.

You don't know this man, but you do know his reputation. He is known as a very ruthless man who has done very cruel experiments in the past.


Would you buy the potion for 200 bucks? Or would you refuse it?
Would you trust this man? Would you have any reason to trust this man?
Do you trust his potion? Do you have a reason to trust his potion is a cure for your disease?

That man's reputation is one of getting results. And that man is also dying from the same desease, so him searching for a cure makes perfect sense. The potion is highly likely to work.
And since I'm dying anyway, I got little to loose.

Your own example turns against you.

Saphra was right. You should have vacated this thread before you ended up embarrasing yourself.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Honestly I don't particularly care at this point.

I enjoy the characters of ME and their individual stories more than the main plot anyway.

Glad you admit the main plot is poorly written. Half is forgiven.

And unlike Saphra and his..."unique" cohorts I can enjoy a game and meta-game at the same time.

I know that's heresy to Saphra's types but who cares what they think anyway?

You're delluding yourself by thinking that "us types" can't enjoy the game and meta-game.

However, meta-gaming arguments don't belong in a discussion about the validity of choices from an in-universe perspective, sicne they are unapliccable.

Of course, I can't expect your type to see the difference between these things. Cleary saying that "you cna't use meta-gaming arguments" here means I hate meta-gaming and am incapable of enjoying myself..

You can take your silly pre-conceptions and failed reasoning and shove it where the sun don't shine.
In fact, I think that's where all of them come from anyway...

Edit: I saw this and thought of you Saphra/Kaiser/Lotion. http://tvtropes.org/...hp/Main/FanDumb

You're actually thinking about me? I'm touched.
But why are you shoing me an articel about yourself?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lord Aesir wrote...

A more apt analogy for this situation.

You are in a crashing plane. You have a backpack that has a high chance of holding a parachute. It has an low chance of being a bomb. If you jump it is practicly impossible, but not definite, that you will survive at this altitude without a parachute. So you have to make the choice. Pull the chute and gamble for safety or destruction, or don't and operate only with known quantities.



The analogy is highly exaggerated of course. The likelihood of Cerberus turning up valuable results in the matter of weeks (or months. or years)  before the Reapers arrive or they succumb to indoctrination (?') that have a greater impact than the war than what took the Turians two years to glean from Sovereign's remains is rather HIGH.
The base would also be a large bother for Shepard and the rest since it represents an enemy base to launch attacks from that only Shepard himself  and anyone he gives the IFF to can retaliate against. However, the threat would still be manageable compared to the Reapers. In the end, the likelihood of the base having a great positive  impact on the war was never ALWAYS very high.

Fixed it for you.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lord Aesir wrote...

@Mr.Gogeta34

No, not at all. Consider that every signifigant piece of Reaper technology so far encountered has been capable of indoctrinating those nearby, most notably object Rho. It stands to reason that the Collector base has the same capability.

No.
Quite the contrary. Indoctrination comes from very specific devices. Reaper technolgoy by default doesn't indoctrinate.
If that was the case the IFF (signiicant), EDI (significant), Thanix (significant), mass relays (significant) would also indoctrinate.
Which also makes you wonder why aren't indoctrination dievices in all mass relays and the Citadel?

You can't set an explosive charge because the entire staff will be indoctrinated long before the Reapers get there.

Just like Sheaprd was indoctrinated before he set the charge? Lol.
You set a remote detonator immediately. So it doesn't matter if all of the base stuff becomes indoctrinated (unlikely as it is).
You can blow it up from the other side of the galaxy.

So they have a scant few weeks before reports become unreliable and then stop entirely. If mere data collection was all that was required than the staff on the Derelict Reaper, given that it was an actual Reaper, should have yielded at least the same level of results as what some here are proposing the Collector base can give.

We don't really know what data TIM got from the reaper..or what he would have gotten had Shep not destroyed it.

The alternative is not gambling for minimal gains with the very real possibility that you've just set up a base from which the Reapers' indoctrinated servants can launch attacks with impunity.

Minimal? No. Try game-changing. Decisive. Lie all reaper tech study proved to be in the end.
And no to the second either.

Once you have the means to pass the relay (ans Shep does), the base itself is not a treat. A single DN can take it out from the other end of the system.
Heck, you can take it out from another system, if you're willing to wait a few months/years for hte bullets to get there..

That's the risk. All I stand to lose from destroying the base is a minuscule chance that it will lead to useful advantage. An advantage whose effectiveness will be quite limited by Cerberus' tendency to resist sharing such technology, especially to the backbone of Shepard's allies, the alien species.

Unsupported, illogical drivel.

I stand to gain the assurance that the base cannot be used against us and that the forces of the Galaxy will be able to remain focused in their battle. No other species has fought the Reapers like this before. All the rest had their political nervous system beheaded in the first move and then had the mass relay network restricted. It's a new gameboard, it is illogical to assume we will go the way of the previous species with such a difference in circumstances.

And it's illiogical to ignore the difference in technolgoy and the tactical/strategic advantages of reapers.

I already presented numbers and a SIMPLE strategy that show how easily the reapers can eradicate our fleets, without sustaining a single loss.

Unless you can provide numbers for the contrary, and a plan to counter this simpel strategy, your claim has nothing to stand on.

[Lotion Soronarr]

111987 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

111987 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I've read a million ****ing times. It is an argument built on assumptions and meta-knowledge. I'm more concerned with the choice as it is presented in-game

Save the Council = Nice but you'll be weaker vs Sovereign

Let them die = Mean but you'll be stronger vs Sovereign

it doesn't rely on metagaming. The DA was said to be the strongest ship in the galaxy in a non-skippable cutscene ate the beginning of the game. You can choose to save it, or let it be destroyed.

Personally i'm gonna bank on the idea that the DA will be more useful against Sovereign than even a dozen extra frigates. Of course, the DA doesn't end up fighting Sovereign, but Shep doesn't know that at the time.

It's still a silly argument.

DA might be usefull (but it was damaged so it's use was limited), but tha't ultimatively beside the point. By wasting time to save it, you're giving Sovereing more time to open the realy.

If he does that, the DA will be meaningless. The point isn't to destroy Sovereign - the point is to destroy it FAST. Time is the issue.
And given that Sovereigns incredible defenses were unknown at that point.....

Remember though, at the time the Citadel arms were closed. While the arms are closed, Sovereign is untouchable. So you might as well fight off the Geth while you're waiting.

Shepard was openign the arms..and the ships have to cross that distance from the relay to the citadel. They're not doign "nothing". They are traveling.

And if you know anything about movement in space, combat manouvers and changing directions can slow you down A LOT. Changing direction in space is more time consuming and difficutl than on earth. Sicne there is no drag, you have to kill your momentum, and then build up the opposite. All the while accelerating.
Adn given the distances in space, a small detour is a huge waste of time.

[Lotion Soronarr]

111987 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

111987 wrote...

The DA is a dreadnaught, actually. And while its main gun might be useless, dreadnaughts have more than just one weapon. Alliance dreadnaughts have dozens of smaller cannons, and the DA is twice the size. Not to mention its shields could soak up a lot of fire from Sovereign.

Sovereign can 1-shot dreadnought with it's main gun (Codex).
DA was damaged, and it's kinetic barreirs were almsot down.

Yes, but it's main gun is spinal-mounted, and since Sovereign was latched onto the tower, it wouldn't be able to manuver into proper firing position.

Probably..but since DA was already badly damaged and it'sbarriers were failing, do you think it could have servived even his secondary guns? They literaly cut cruisers in half.

Adn before you say that barriers re-chanrge...yes they do. When they're not damaged... and it takes time.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...
Not to mention that there's nothing that stops the geth from utterly buttf*cking the Alliance ships when they're focusing on Sovereign.

I'd say it's a major tactical advantage to save the DA and destroy the majority of the geth ships (it's not that hard to figure out that they will be ignored if you tell the Alliance ships to go for Sovereign either, since they're busy with the DA) before going after the Citadel arms.

Saving the Allaince ships is irrelevant. Even if all the Alliance ships get destroyed, as long as Sovereign is brought down it's a victory.

Also, since time is an issue, taking de-tours is counter-productive.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Arcian wrote...

In 10/10 cases, people who destroy the DA isn't doing so because they want to save the day, but because they're anti-alien hats of the ass variety who want the alien Council dead.

In 10/10 cases, people who make stupid posts like this are morons.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Biotic Sage wrote...

For all of the bickering in this thread, you have to realize that the good people at Bioware just take a quick glance at it, see that both end-game decisions are very polarizing, smile to themselves and say: "Mission Accomplished."

Pfft...since it's so easy to acomplish such a mission, it's not an accomplishment.

People always argue. Over anything.

[Someone With Mass]

Wow. That whole "no cost is too great" mentality is just dumb, since then there's nothing that tells those people that there's a limit.

Not to mention that some sacrifices are utterly pointless, but some people see them as the cost for victory.

One of many reasons why I won't give TIM the base. Because he's so quick to place everyone but himself on the line. He just throws money at problems and expects them to go away with no supervision whatsoever. That's what cost him so many projects and I certainly won't give him ammunition to do so again.

[AlexXIV]

One thing I don't get with Sovereign is that he is waiting so long. I mean any time before the last battle would have been a better timing to attack the citadel. I mean Saren is spending all this time to search for the conduit but actually he could just have come with Sovereign. The conduit is merely a door into the Citadel. And Saren has been a Spectre at some point. But he is chasing conduits and beacons which are mostly useless for anything while he could just have taken the citadel with Sovereign to begin with. Hell he could even have convinced the Council that Sovereign is a ship he found. And before they know what Sovereign really is, he docks at the citadel, Saren eliminates the Council and voila, the Reapers can use the Citadel.

But no it had to be all complicated and time consuming just to get to the point where the whole galactic fleet was prepared for the attack and Shepard knew about everything about the Reapers and their plan. Honestly, if the Reapers were smart, they would have eradicated the galaxy before ME1. So maybe we should not think of them being exceptionally smart.

[Biotic Sage]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

For all of the bickering in this thread, you have to realize that the good people at Bioware just take a quick glance at it, see that both end-game decisions are very polarizing, smile to themselves and say: "Mission Accomplished."

Pfft...since it's so easy to acomplish such a mission, it's not an accomplishment.

People always argue. Over anything.

Sure there will always be differeing opinions, but something is "polarizing" only when around half the people see it one way and around half see it the other.  It's not like the people of either side of these arguments (Destiny Ascension / Collector Base) are the overwhelming majority.  And there's plenty that can see both sides of the argument as well.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 16 décembre 2011 - 10:10 .

[Someone With Mass]

AlexXIV wrote...

One thing I don't get with Sovereign is that he is waiting so long. I mean any time before the last battle would have been a better timing to attack the citadel. I mean Saren is spending all this time to search for the conduit but actually he could just have come with Sovereign. The conduit is merely a door into the Citadel. And Saren has been a Spectre at some point. But he is chasing conduits and beacons which are mostly useless for anything while he could just have taken the citadel with Sovereign to begin with. Hell he could even have convinced the Council that Sovereign is a ship he found. And before they know what Sovereign really is, he docks at the citadel, Saren eliminates the Council and voila, the Reapers can use the Citadel.

But no it had to be all complicated and time consuming just to get to the point where the whole galactic fleet was prepared for the attack and Shepard knew about everything about the Reapers and their plan. Honestly, if the Reapers were smart, they would have eradicated the galaxy before ME1. So maybe we should not think of them being exceptionally smart.

Well, a ship like Sovereign isn't exactly screaming hospitality, and people would probably think it's up to something when it's not responding to Citadel Control.

Had Sovereign attacked without Saren inside, the Citadel would have just closed its arms and then Sovereign's whole plan would have gone to ****.

[AlexXIV]

Someone With Mass wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

One thing I don't get with Sovereign is that he is waiting so long. I mean any time before the last battle would have been a better timing to attack the citadel. I mean Saren is spending all this time to search for the conduit but actually he could just have come with Sovereign. The conduit is merely a door into the Citadel. And Saren has been a Spectre at some point. But he is chasing conduits and beacons which are mostly useless for anything while he could just have taken the citadel with Sovereign to begin with. Hell he could even have convinced the Council that Sovereign is a ship he found. And before they know what Sovereign really is, he docks at the citadel, Saren eliminates the Council and voila, the Reapers can use the Citadel.

But no it had to be all complicated and time consuming just to get to the point where the whole galactic fleet was prepared for the attack and Shepard knew about everything about the Reapers and their plan. Honestly, if the Reapers were smart, they would have eradicated the galaxy before ME1. So maybe we should not think of them being exceptionally smart.

Well, a ship like Sovereign isn't exactly screaming hospitality, and people would probably think it's up to something when it's not responding to Citadel Control.

Had Sovereign attacked without Saren inside, the Citadel would have just closed its arms and then Sovereign's whole plan would have gone to ****.

They wouldn't have time to close it, just like in the end fight. Sovereign and the Geth would pop out of the mass relay and while Saren distracts the council/citadel control it gets near and take control. The beacons and cipher they are looking for only has one purpose: To find the conduit. And the conduit has only one purpose either: To enter the citadel. But when he still was Spectre he could have walked freely on the citadel. Sovereign and the Geth would have attacked, there would not even be a fleet ready to defend the Citadel, because before Eden Prime nobody even know about Reapers or a Geth invasion.

So the Geth deal with the few unsuspecting ships around the Citadel, Sovereign goes straight for his docking point and Saren and his minions make sure citadel control is not closing the arms. Ok maybe their other plan, to use the conduit would have worked better without Shepard. But frankly, Saren is wasting time, giving Shep all the info he needs and then starts the attack when the galaxy is ready for them. If that's the plan of a superior intelligence then I don't want to see an unintelligent plan.

[Someone With Mass]

I'm pretty sure that the Citadel fleets would have opened fire on the geth on sight.

[AlexXIV]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I'm pretty sure that the Citadel fleets would have opened fire on the geth on sight.

Sure they would, just like in the last battle. Just there would have been fewer probably and they would not be ready for the Geth. I doubt all ships are combat-ready all the time. The crews may have downtime, some ships may be in dock for mainteance, etc. I mean there is a reason why attacking an unspecting enemy is preferable. There will at least be confusion at first and until the admiraltly does have control of the situation the enemies may have ripped half way through the fleet. Especially considering that probably, without Shepard fighting Saren/Sovereign at the Citadel, the Alliance wouldn't have had a chance even in the last battle at the citadel, when they were there in force and battle-ready.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Wow. That whole "no cost is too great" mentality is just dumb, since then there's nothing that tells those people that there's a limit.

Not to mention that some sacrifices are utterly pointless, but some people see them as the cost for victory.

One of many reasons why I won't give TIM the base. Because he's so quick to place everyone but himself on the line. He just throws money at problems and expects them to go away with no supervision whatsoever. That's what cost him so many projects and I certainly won't give him ammunition to do so again.

The limit depends on circumstances and the goal.
No cost is too great for survival fo the species.

You moral high-ground is meaningless. Honor is meaningless. If you fail, there would be no one left to care.

Pontelss sacrafices are pontless. Non-pointelss sacrifices arne't. Now show which are pointless and explain why.

As for TIM - say what you want but the man is sucesfull.

[Someone With Mass]

AlexXIV wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

I'm pretty sure that the Citadel fleets would have opened fire on the geth on sight.

Sure they would, just like in the last battle. Just there would have been fewer probably and they would not be ready for the Geth. I doubt all ships are combat-ready all the time. The crews may have downtime, some ships may be in dock for mainteance, etc. I mean there is a reason why attacking an unspecting enemy is preferable. There will at least be confusion at first and until the admiraltly does have control of the situation the enemies may have ripped half way through the fleet. Especially considering that probably, without Shepard fighting Saren/Sovereign at the Citadel, the Alliance wouldn't have had a chance even in the last battle at the citadel, when they were there in force and battle-ready.

True, but Sovereign revealed itself during the attack on Eden Prime, so a surprise attack on the Citadel was probably out of the question when their movements were tracked.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Luc0s wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
That man's reputation is one of getting results. And that man is also dying from the same desease, so him searching for a cure makes perfect sense. The potion is highly likely to work.
And since I'm dying anyway, I got little to loose.

Your own example turns against you.

Saphra was right. You should have vacated this thread before you ended up embarrasing yourself.

No, this man's reputation is NOT one of getting results. This man failed just as many times as that he succeeded. I estimate his succes-rate at 60% at most. The other 40% of the time he totally and utterly failed.

You estimaters are devoid of reason and are wrong.
 

You got nothing to lose? Oh, you got EVERYTHING to lose.

When you take the potion of this man, you'll likely die right away. Even though this man got results in the past, he knows nothing about your disease and he knows even less about the potion he's offering you. The potion could be a poison. You don't know. The man doesn't know either. All you know is that this potion is made from the same ingredients as the poison that caused your disease in the first place. (wich, antidotes are usually made out of. Go figure!)

If you take the potion and it turns out to be a poison, you'll die right away. Bye bye life. You're death for certain. But if you refuse the potion, you still got 6 months left to find another REAL cure that you CAN trust.

And yes, you got nothing to loose. You said it yourself - you'll die anyway.
So you refuse a chance to live a long life - you'd rather live a few
days in a sick condition and end up dying, with no cure in sight
anywhere.
Wishfull thinking that a perfect cure will fall out of nowhere.
Living in a dream universe insted of reality.

This poition is no more likely to kill you than anything else.


Now stop being Saphra's little guardian doggy and think for yourself, before YOU start to embarrising YOURSELF.

I'm no ones guardian dog, and Saphra certanly doesn't need my protection.
Especially not from the likes of you. Even a 3-year old child could defeat your arguments.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 16 décembre 2011 - 11:44 .

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

As for TIM - say what you want but the man is sucesfull.

Yeah. Sure. If you count sweeping up the remains of the majority of the projects and hope to get something useful out of it while never being able to recreate the initial results because the whole original staff was killed as being successful.

I don't know about you, but I'd plan to prevent disasters like that, just in case I'd need a science team like the one on the Teltin facility to work on a similar project and might speed things up a bit or to improve a formula because the other science team is stuck and needs a breakthrough.

Unnecessary sacrifices like that brings nothing but losses. Losses that will outweigh the profits sooner or later if they keep that up.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Luc0s wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Shepard was openign the arms..and the ships have to cross that distance from the relay to the citadel. They're not doign "nothing". They are traveling.

And if you know anything about movement in space, combat manouvers and changing directions can slow you down A LOT. Changing direction in space is more time consuming and difficutl than on earth. Sicne there is no drag, you have to kill your momentum, and then build up the opposite. All the while accelerating.
Adn given the distances in space, a small detour is a huge waste of time.

You don't know what you're talking about. It takes time for Shepard to open up the Citadel arms. In that time, the Alliance can either save the DA, or they can wait (e.g. DOING NOTHING) until the arms are ready to open up.

Nah, you have no idea what you're talking about.
The reality of movements in space, and space combat are lost to you.

Not only is time and fuel wasted in needless manouvering, but engaging in combat heats ships up, which makes them less effective against Sovereign. And there's no time to go venting.

Also, the Citadel fleet was holding their own. The choice is not to save the fleet, but to save DA. One ship.

When you choose the save the Council, the Alliance first kills all the geth ships, THEN they fly towards the Citadel and THEN Shepard opens up the Citadel arms.

When you choose to let the Council die, the Alliance flies past the DA and the geth ships, the Council dies, THEN Shepard opens up the Citadel arms.

Either way, it takes the same time to open the Citadel arms. So the Alliance either WAITS / DOES NOTHING in that time, or it saves the DA in that time.

So time isn't an issue here because Shepard already has control over the Citadel at this moment and is waiting until the arms open. The only real issue here is whether you wanna risk sacrificing Alliance ships to save the Council and the DA.

Time is alwas an issue. And don't take the cutscene too literaly. Cutscenes are made to be visually impressive, not accurate to fluff.
After all, canonicly close combat range is measured in dozens/hunders of kilometers. At that distance you'd see nothing. No impressive eye candy battle. This is why cinematics and moves generaly make a mockery out of range, since they want as many ship in one shot.

Also, Sheppards reasonign is clearly statedin the choice - focus on Sovereing, conserve the fleets battle readiness.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 16 décembre 2011 - 11:46 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

As for TIM - say what you want but the man is sucesfull.

Yeah. Sure. If you count sweeping up the remains of the majority of the projects and hope to get something useful out of it while never being able to recreate the initial results because the whole original staff was killed as being successful.

Sauce.

People may die but mission is a sucess. That is still a sucess.

Unnecessary sacrifices like that brings nothing but losses. Losses that will outweigh the profits sooner or later if they keep that up.

So far they haven't. Meaning, you are proven wrong.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sauce.

People may die but mission is a sucess. That is still a sucess.

Yeah, keep telling yourself that when you don't have anyone to handle the subjects you want researched because you seemed it a necessity to kill off the last group for some weak reason.

Scientists don't grow on trees, you know. And some of them are unique in their own ways. You can't just treat them like paper towels and expect to get just as good ones after each project. The quality will suffer sooner or later.

And no, I haven't been proven wrong. You just said I was wrong, but that's not proof of anything.