1667 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@BlueMagiteck: Mind = blown.

How else do we account for the abundance of scientists in Cerberus employ?  We know someone visited Thedas; there's a statue of an Ogre in Kasumi's DLC.  

If prominant human scientists were suddenly dropping off the grid (all the time, apparently), someone would notice.  What other explanation can they be?

There is a weak link in your reasoning though. I have not seen a Broodmother produce a darkspawn scientist yet.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I have no idea what the heck you just said there.
I cannot dictate to you how to play your game - metagame or don't. Have fun or don't.

Well I won't act as if I know what you are up to. But the way you argue actually looks pretty much like that. That you want us to accept your truth(s). What you basically say then is 'You can play as you want but whoever doesn't do it my way is stupid'. And before you ask me to quote you saying this, no I can't, you didn't say that literally. But you are that relentless and adamant about everything you say that I can't stop wondering what the hell you are fighting for so hard.

I'm not dictating anyone or forcing anyone to do anything. But choices can be analized.
I'm sorry that your preffered choice turns out to be a bad decision, but poiting that out is not the same as dictating how you should play.

Telling people they are stupid because they come to different conclusions doesn't help your case much. Because they would only accept it if they really are stupid. It's really fine to have OPINIONS, even different opinions. From playstyle to logic to morals.

I'm telling them they are stupid - I'm telling them their arguments are flawed.
Shep CAN have justification and reasons for blowing up the base - however those reason AREN'T really logical.

For exmaple - you can play an Akuze survivor who hates Cerberus with a passion, and blowing hte base is justified in the eyes of that Sheppard (because he is blinded by hatered). Perfeclty valid playtrough. Perfectly valid choices.

But it's not a strategicly smart choice. It never will be. I take umbarge with that.

Yes, I and probably others are idealists, and we love if we get to make a choice that is morally and strategically paying off. That's how Bioware makes their games. I personally would prefer if it was more ambigious, that morally 'good' choices would not always lead to optimized results. But that's not how the story is written. You know that too.

So what are we really supposed to do? Tell Bioware their stories are too one-dimensional? I'd be the first to jump on that bandwagon with you or anyone. But if you really expect me or us to ignore the story for the sake of 'realism' that would suggest that the writers didn't do a good job and then somehow deal with the wrong choices ignoring most of the game ... that's asking a bit too much tbh.

The game reacts on our choices in a certain way. Bioware style. That's always on my mind when I make choices. And if the game considers destroying the base the morally better choice which still will work out in the end then I am going to choose it. Whether you consider it metagaming or not, the in-game reality does not always reflect what we would consider real life reality. And if you want your story to make sense in the game you will have to accept in-game reality as it is presented to us.

And this has what exactly to do with the Collector Base?


You keep brining in these "It's game", "this is how Bioware writes games" and similar arguments, evne tough you already know they are all null and void.

It is metagaming. It DOESN'T have any bearing on the discussion. It's just wasted space on this page.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Lotion - I cannot make allowances for your lack of understanding - otherwise, I would have to do so for everyone.

Start making some sense so people can understand you. Then we'll talk.

Your question doesn't make sense, as you're assuming things I haven't said.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


You keep brining in these "It's game", "this is how Bioware writes games" and similar arguments, evne tough you already know they are all null and void.

It is metagaming. It DOESN'T have any bearing on the discussion. It's just wasted space on this page.

Oh I am sorry I am wasting space and your time. I didn't realize something important is going on here.

[BlueMagitek]

AlexXIV wrote...

There is a weak link in your reasoning though. I have not seen a Broodmother produce a darkspawn scientist yet.

Hey, I've never seen a black ops group bring a human back from the dead, but why not?

Or, you know, one of the awakened Darkspawn awakened another Brood Mother and that's the one Cerberus found. Which does produce smart Darkspawn.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Lord Aesir wrote...

@Mr.Gogeta34

No, not at all. Consider that every signifigant piece of Reaper technology so far encountered has been capable of indoctrinating those nearby, most notably object Rho. It stands to reason that the Collector base has the same capability. You can't set an explosive charge because the entire staff will be indoctrinated long before the Reapers get there. So they have a scant few weeks before reports become unreliable and then stop entirely. If mere data collection was all that was required than the staff on the Derelict Reaper, given that it was an actual Reaper, should have yield
ed at least the same level of results as what some here are proposing the Collector base can give.

The alternative is not gambling for minimal gains with the very real possibility that you've just set up a base from which the Reapers' indoctrinated servants can launch attacks with impunity. Shepard is the only one with a ship outside Cerberus that would be able to stop them, dragging him and the Normandy away from the front lines in their time of greatest need. With only the Cerberus soldiers and scientists it could be resolved relatively quickly, but if the Reapers managed to reinforce them it could become a serious problem.

That's the risk. All I stand to lose from destroying the base is a minuscule chance that it will lead to useful advantage. An advantage whose effectiveness will be quite limited by Cerberus' tendency to resist sharing such technology, especially to the backbone of Shepard's allies, the alien species. I stand to gain the assurance that the base cannot be used against us and that the forces of the Galaxy will be able to remain focused in their battle. No other species has fought the Reapers like this before. All the rest had their political nervous system beheaded in the first move and then had the mass relay network restricted. It's a new gameboard, it is illogical to assume we will go the way of the previous species with such a difference in circumstances.

Indoctrination is here to stay... it's one of the Reaper's primary weapons... we'll need to find a way to counter it and stop the Reapers.  You can either try to do that now... or you can do it later... in the middle of the galactic war.

Experience in dealing with Reaper tech + proper oversight (with the right team) is enough to negate a lot of negative possibilities (Shepard never fully trusts Cerberus so I'd assume he'd want to keep a close eye on what's done at that base).

And if you missed it, that Collector Base was actually building a Reaper... as in the Reaper's blueprint could be there (how it's built).  That's hardly minimal.

There's nothing else that base can be used for.. and it can easily be destroyed (far easier than during the suicide mission because you'd already have people there).  Signs of Indoctrination could be caught early and dealth with quickly.

Had the Derelect Reaper been "Paragon'd," we'd have no way to get through the Omega 4 Relay.  The ambush caused by the IFF was a risk worth taking to stop the Collectors.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 17 décembre 2011 - 03:04 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

All the reasons to not trust Cerberus, not trust TIM, and not hand over the Collector Base, have been given over and over, and no matter what reason is given, the Cerberus fans will find a way to dismiss that reason and cling to it. "Oh that wasn't Cerberus" or "oh that branch had gone rogue" or "oh that's just the price of success" or...

And those reasons are garbage and not enough.

And thus you demonstrate my point for me.

Thank you.

Am I now?

Yes.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

All the reasons to not trust Cerberus, not trust TIM, and not hand over the Collector Base, have been given over and over, and no matter what reason is given, the Cerberus fans will find a way to dismiss that reason and cling to it. "Oh that wasn't Cerberus" or "oh that branch had gone rogue" or "oh that's just the price of success" or...

And those reasons are garbage and not enough.

And thus you demonstrate my point for me.

Thank you.

Am I now?

Yes.

No. Since I was refering to the underlined. Not the bolded.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


You keep brining in these "It's game", "this is how Bioware writes games" and similar arguments, evne tough you already know they are all null and void.

It is metagaming. It DOESN'T have any bearing on the discussion. It's just wasted space on this page.

Oh I am sorry I am wasting space and your time. I didn't realize something important is going on here.

I forgive you. Partially.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

All the reasons to not trust Cerberus, not trust TIM, and not hand over the Collector Base, have been given over and over, and no matter what reason is given, the Cerberus fans will find a way to dismiss that reason and cling to it. "Oh that wasn't Cerberus" or "oh that branch had gone rogue" or "oh that's just the price of success" or...

And those reasons are garbage and not enough.

And thus you demonstrate my point for me.

Thank you.

Am I now?

Yes.

No. Since I was refering to the underlined. Not the bolded.

The bold is the part you demonstrated so nicely for us, chuckles. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Yes.

No. Since I was refering to the underlined. Not the bolded.

The bold is the part you demonstrated so nicely for us, chuckles. 

In your derams...Only in your dreams.

That's the only place where you ever stand a chance of wining a debate against me

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

In your derams...Only in your dreams.

That's the only place where you ever stand a chance of wining a debate against me

Back on topic, who would be surprised? I mean seriously, look at Cerberus's track record with mad science. It always gets out of their control.

[HadenHanibal]

ArMedSuRViVoR wrote...

Cerberus will no doubt yank it away from Shepard and use it against him.
That, is bad.

They don't need to,  we're probably just going to end up still fighting collectors if we gave Jacky boy the collector base.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Yes.

No. Since I was refering to the underlined. Not the bolded.

The bold is the part you demonstrated so nicely for us, chuckles. 

In your derams...Only in your dreams.

That's the only place where you ever stand a chance of wining a debate against me

Keep telling yourself that, chuckles. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 17 décembre 2011 - 10:46 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Yes.

No. Since I was refering to the underlined. Not the bolded.

The bold is the part you demonstrated so nicely for us, chuckles. 

In your derams...Only in your dreams.

That's the only place where you ever stand a chance of wining a debate against me

Keep telling yourself that, chuckles. 

You're just jealous of the love he and Cerberus share!!!!!!!

[Killjoy Cutter]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...
You're just jealous of the love he and Cerberus share!!!!!!!

OK, I admit it... it's true.  I have never known that kind of intense and transcendent passion...

LoL.

[Ravensword]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...
You're just jealous of the love he and Cerberus share!!!!!!!

OK, I admit it... it's true.  I have never known that kind of intense and transcendent passion...

LoL.

Cerberus love is the best love.

[ediskrad327]

waaaaaaaaaaaay back then before the whole leaks and stuff i destroyed the base for 2 reasons
1-i do not trust TIM
2-the base is Reaper tech so it would end up indoctrinating those who were exposed to it and it would be like returning it to the Reapers

[Lotion Soronarr]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Yes.

No. Since I was refering to the underlined. Not the bolded.

The bold is the part you demonstrated so nicely for us, chuckles. 

In your derams...Only in your dreams.

That's the only place where you ever stand a chance of wining a debate against me

Keep telling yourself that, chuckles. 

It pleases me that you're reduced to trying to find speed typos in my posts.
Shows you got nothing else to offer to this thread and discussion.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It pleases me that you're reduced to trying to find speed typos in my posts.
Shows you got nothing else to offer to this thread and discussion.

Or it just shows that he's stopped taking you seriously because you have nothing good to add or anything that's worth replying too.

[Darth_Trethon]

How did this topic go to 64 pages? The OP does nothing but state a possibility that is so obvious any 2 year old could point out.....and he points it out as fact. The reality is we don't know what Cerberus is up to and why they are attacking Shep just as the reapers are attacking since Shep is key to defeating them....it could be a show along the lines of the little drama that went down when we boarded the collector ship thinking turians disabled it but we don't know...the end.

Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 19 décembre 2011 - 07:41 .

[BellaStrega]

Oh, it probably has to do with mass Cerberus indoctrination due to spending too much time screwing around with Reaper technology.

But of course there is no logical reason to be against the use of that technology. The fact that it always seems to result in mass deaths and people doing the Reaper's work for them and./or converted to husks is just too darned inconvenient.

And yes, it is true, limited applications of Reaper technology have managed to dodge the indoctrination bullet (EDI, the thanix cannon, Shepard, the Reaper IFF), but these are exceptions and they do not sufficiently test the rule. Further, none of those four involved working within a major Reaper installation (for example, in the derelict Reaper, or the attempts to study Sovereign. Even the artifact in the Bahak system, which was not a full installation in and of itself. Leaving the base intact for the Illusive Man is essentially giving Cerberus to the Reapers. If anything, TIM should thank Shepard for holding the line in TIM's moment of weakness and temptation.

Obviously, ME3 will play out the way it plays out, but Shepard doesn't have that information when it's time to decide what to do with the Collector Base. However, with the dozens or possibly hundreds of pages spent debating this topic, it's completely laughable to claim that no one has ever produced a logical argument in favor of destroying the base, or that all of the arguments in favor of destruction boil down to "fighting the Reapers with good intentions." An unwillingness to see logic is not an absence of logic.

Modifié par BellaStrega, 19 décembre 2011 - 09:03 .

[AlexXIV]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

How did this topic go to 64 pages? The OP does nothing but state a possibility that is so obvious any 2 year old could point out.....and he points it out as fact. The reality is we don't know what Cerberus is up to and why they are attacking Shep just as the reapers are attacking since Shep is key to defeating them....it could be a show along the lines of the little drama that went down when we boarded the collector ship thinking turians disabled it but we don't know...the end.

My theory is that this thread is the collector base and we are all indoctrinated by now.
 
Can't ... help ... clicking ... thread ... read ... have ... to ... write ... something ... anything ... doesn't ... matter ... ugh ... my ... head ...

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

^THIS HURTS YOU