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[MrZork]

[This thread is probably a common theme, but I haven't seen one recently...]

Perusing another thread, I thought it might be interesting and useful to discuss tactics appropriate for dealing with various enemies in NWN. Obviously, there may be many things that work against a given opponent and what sort of character is going up against that enemy is also important, particularly for single-player environments. And, environment will matter, so it's worth mentioning if a tactic depends on having an available magic item in that environment, etc.

Anyway, first up: The Demilich.
How does one best approach this foe, particularly in a single-player environment with a level 30 or lower character? Is he even beatable pre-epic?

I am particularly interested in how to deal with this guy when playing an arcane caster, though even melee types will have some difficulty cutting through the 30/+20 damage reduction and immunity to critical hits. Obviously, characters with the Divine Might or the Smite Evil feats or the Holy Sword spell will have an advantage here.

The demilich's immunity to all spells of level 9 or lower really kind of limits a caster's tactics. Evard's Black Tentacles are soaked by his damage resistance and Great Thunderclap is only effective as a low percentage chance of increasing his chance of spell failure. My approach has been to throw up Mestil's Acid Sheath, Death Armor, and maybe Elemental Shield (if I'm high enough level to overcome the 20/- fire resistance) and hope to draw him into melee before he wears me down with Breaches and Mord's. Standing next to the demilich with a bow/crossbow to give him extra attacks of opportunity can be useful, though a close eye has to be kept on healing, since his head-butt attack averages 55 damage per hit and has a high-DC paralysis effect.

What approach do others use?

And, feel free to add questions and tactics for dealing with other enemies to the thread.

[WhiZard]

MrZork wrote...
I am particularly interested in how to deal with this guy when playing an arcane caster, though even melee types will have some difficulty cutting through the 30/+20 damage reduction and immunity to critical hits. Obviously, characters with the Divine Might or the Smite Evil feats or the Holy Sword spell will have an advantage here.

Actually, the paladin's best ability against it is Lay on Hands.  Level * Charisma modifier can be quite high with aura of glory and eagle's splendor buffs.

For arcane classes, try BBoD followed by an epic spell (very cheap maneuver).  But since he does not have immunity to whatever epic spell you cast, and he doesn't have immunity to death magic, the BBOD can easily use its on-hit planar rift to destroy him.

Shifters can go into epic manticore form and claw him to death, bypassing his DR.

Modifié par WhiZard, 01 décembre 2011 - 02:23 .

[MrZork]

Good advice, I had forgotten about the persistent spell / last spell cast exploit. Is there a good way for an arcane caster who doesn't have an epic spell ready to deal with a demilich? My casters typically have Epic Mage Armor (at least in low-mid magic settings) and Epic Warding not until later on (level 31 at earliest, right?), and I typically cast EMA right after resting.

Admittedly, this is one of the situations where having Greater Ruin might be worthwhile, both for direct damage and the BBoD exploit. Although, the save for half damage means that a demilich (whose +18 fortitude save versus spells will help him here) still makes GR marginal, since a demilich will most likely not be killed by it and will heal himself the next round.

Modifié par MrZork, 01 décembre 2011 - 02:58 .

[WhiZard]

MrZork wrote...

Good advice, I had forgotten about the persistent spell / last spell cast exploit. Is there a good way for an arcane caster who doesn't have an epic spell ready to deal with a demilich? My casters typically have Epic Mage Armor (at least in low-mid magic settings) and Epic Warding not until later on (level 31 at earliest, right?), and I typically cast EMA right after resting.

Admittedly, this is one of the situations where having Greater Ruin might be worthwhile, both for direct damage and the BBoD exploit. Although, the save for half damage means that a demilich (whose +18 fortitude save versus spells will help him here) still makes GR marginal, since a demilich will most likely not be killed by it and will heal himself the next round.

The 18 is a total of the natural +8 and the spellcraft +10 vs. spells.  Greater ruin for a comparably leveled player would be about 20 + 6(base ability modifier) + 3 (reflecting ability score bonuses) = 29.  If he fails (at least half the time, subject to gear) he is usually dead.

[Shadooow]

I faced improved demilich in the 40lvl PW with several casters.

Cleric has many magic damage, might also have divine might, might also turn him (but thats not possible pre-epic).

Paladin is able to destroy standard demilich even pre-epic using Lay On Hands in conjuction with Divine Might and bless weapon.

Druid can kill everything via creeping doom

but for arcane casters

easiest and most stupid tactic is to cast Blad Blade of Disaster, let demilich ho cast all his spells on the sword and then once he comes to melee use damage shields and iron golem polymorph. Its a bit slow tactic but works.

secondary tactic is to get a wepon that might harm him, he has no AC, so you should be able to hit him, he will try to eventually heal himself but efault demilich in 1.69 can heal himself only once I think (in my unofficial patch he is able to use Harm spell to heal himself however - might as well apply for custom AI like Tony K's but not sure) - but the exalted sorc build can use Lay On Hands to finish him once you get him to the "badly wounded".

+the default demilich doesnt have death immunity to you can kill him via AA death arrow or BBoD exploit (again fixed in my patch)

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 01 décembre 2011 - 03:43 .

[MrZork]

Greater Ruin won't typically kill a demilich (who is otherwise undamaged) even if the demilich fails his save. GR does average damage of 122.5 on a failed save, which is a nice hit, but the demilich has 145 hit points.

As an aside, that's really why I have stopped taking GR: Even though it costs an epic feat to get and you can only use it once per rest, it's still not a reliable one-shot spell even for many of the mobs one encounters at epic levels. (And, the fact that it doesn't benefit from spell focus feats is another problem.) It's a great spell to use if you can get a low hit point opponent wounded or badly wounded, to finish him off before his AI decides it's time to heal. I'm not saying it's a terrible feat, because it is really handy in situations like this where an opponent is immune to most normal damage. But, it's kind of a rare use weapon in the arsenal, IMO.

[MrZork]

Thanks, ShaDoOoW. I had forgotten about Creeping Doom. Druids and clerics really have an edge here. An arcane caster with some UMD might do well to keep a couple of those scrolls handy.

BTW, I think the save DC for Arrow of Death is fixed at only 20, so a demilich will only fail on a roll of 1.

Modifié par MrZork, 01 décembre 2011 - 06:55 .

[Shadooow]

Default bioware demilich has AFAIK a fortitude of 8 + (38+14)/5 => 10spellcraft bonus but this bonus is not applicable for Death Arrow.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 01 décembre 2011 - 01:53 .

[WhiZard]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Default bioware demilich has AFAIK a fortitude of 8 + (38+14)/5 => 10spellcraft bonus but this bonus is not applicable for Death Arrow.

Oddly spellcraft save vs. spells works on anything coming from spells.2da (unless it is delayed or in an AoE script).  It also works for some things that do not seem to have a listing there, such as on-hits like vorpal.

This can be contrasted to regular saves vs. spells (e.g. protection from spells and arcane defense) which only seem to work on user type 1 and 2.

Modifié par WhiZard, 01 décembre 2011 - 06:49 .

[HipMaestro]

Holy traps.  It's almost silly easy.

[WhiZard]

Looking at his reflex saves, it looks like deadly electric is much more damaging than deadly holy. For the electric just make sure you are not hit.

EDIT: Oops forgot his 100% immunity.  With 20DR even fire is less effective than holy deadly per deadly.  Though if you have an epic fire trap (and can set it) this could be a good use. 

Modifié par WhiZard, 02 décembre 2011 - 02:54 .

[MrZork]

Traps are probably the best approach for rogue-types and it looks like holy traps are the best bang for the buck - by which I mean damage versus required Set Trap skill rank - against undead.

And, actually, with wizard characters: 1) I often take a couple rogue levels anyway as I like the stealthy mage idea and I like versatility, but I don't always put points into Set Trap, largely because I hate carrying around a page full of them. But this discussion is making me re-think that, since 10 points in the skill yields a great option versus undead and the 20d6 electrical trap is often useful against spell resistant foes like constructs. And 2) I often begin to accumulate more skill points than I really need anyway, somewhere in the mid-epics. So, even a non-rogue wizard could spare enough cross-class points to make trap-settiing a viable option. 3) Wizards get a great head-start with trap crafting, which means a fairly tidy inventory of (stackable) holy waters and traps when they are anticipated, keeping a couple ready-made for quick use. Assuming holy water is available, of course...

Very nice! Thanks HipMaestro.

[WebShaman]

Like most have mentioned here, I use the standard BBoD combined with GS (I usually haste my BBoDs and buff them up, using the Healing Kit trick).

Takes down Demiliches like nothing else.

[HipMaestro]

MrZork wrote...
Traps are probably the best approach for rogue-types and it looks like holy traps are the best bang for the buck - by which I mean damage versus required Set Trap skill rank - against undead.

That's a common misnomer. 

Every class can set traps easily with a modest skill investment.  To set a deadly holy, for instance, requires no more than 10 x-classed points.  A dexer needs far less.  And if skill boosting is available through items (Cat's Grace comes to mind), even less still.  Besides, deadly versions are not required... they just make it easier.  Stack a dozen or so average holy traps tightly and steer the bugger through the center.  To set those requires only a single point in Set Trap.  And if you happen to be a taunter, annoy the critter first!

Also, another tactic I have used is using Shapechange, usually to either iron golem or dragon, then casting Epic warding on my form.  Cuts right through the DR.

Modifié par HipMaestro, 02 décembre 2011 - 02:01 .

[WebShaman]

^ Everyone should know about Set Traps! It is an AWESOME skill. Kills just about anything!

And Holy traps are pretty nasty.

Still, laying down all those traps requires time...and you cannot be involved in combat really, while doing so.

So depending on the environment, it may not be possible to use the Set Trap ability to kill the Demilich here.

On the other hand, the BBoD/GS trick normally always works...

[WebShaman]

Hmmm...never tried to use the Epic Spell feats while Shapechanged! Interesting idea!

[MrZork]

Another thought on this: Arcane archers have ranged touch attacks that don't check magic resistance, which have something of an edge because ranged touch attacks don't respect immunity from critical hits. Similarly, a dexer with 20 AA levels and 30 dex has three imbue arrow fireballs per day that have a (small) chance of critting and beating the DR and also a great chance of beating the 20/- fire resistance with a 15d6 fireball that has a very high reflex save (around 40). Each fireball should be able to slip about 30 points of damage past the resistance. Even taken together, that's not enough to bring down a demilich, but I think a good approach is to do enough damage so that a big attack (perhaps a trap, Greater Ruin, etc.) can finish the job, but not so much that the demilich stops and heals himself.

[HipMaestro]

MrZork wrote...
Another thought on this: Arcane archers have ranged touch attacks that don't check magic resistance, which have something of an edge because ranged touch attacks don't respect immunity from critical hits. Similarly, a dexer with 20 AA levels and 30 dex has three imbue arrow fireballs per day that have a (small) chance of critting and beating the DR and also a great chance of beating the 20/- fire resistance with a 15d6 fireball that has a very high reflex save (around 40). Each fireball should be able to slip about 30 points of damage past the resistance. Even taken together, that's not enough to bring down a demilich, but I think a good approach is to do enough damage so that a big attack (perhaps a trap, Greater Ruin, etc.) can finish the job, but not so much that the demilich stops and heals himself.

But is the physical portion critted in a touch attack that is based on elemental damage?  Howz that supposed to work exactly?  The normal enchanted attack is not a touch attack so you'll get 3 shots.  Then, after it casts harm-self you are back to the drawing board.  Dunno, about depending on the range touches.

However, AA's are one of few dexers that can get by with their max +15 damage, a mighty bow & whatever damage they can stack with the ammo, but it still take a long time without being able to crit.  AB means almost nothing at all with the puny demilich AC and elemental ammo is worthless except for custom divine or positive damage stuff... rare at best.  If you can get enough physical damge on the ammo to supplement the 15 + mighty, you may be able to gradually whittle away after the harm-self.  But there are 3 of them in queue so it will takes nutz patience.

Mostly, for me anyway, the biggest problem are playing pure melee dexers like WMs, non-trapper rogues, monks, SDs, etc.... essentially any meleer that cannot do huge base damage and don't even have the +15 that AA's can develop. 

Divine buffs can be the one-size-fits-all remedy to some extent, but without some divine buff it stands there swatting forever (it seems) without getting anywhere and when they finally knock it down into the red the bugger casts harm-self.  Exasperating.  Heal kits don't cause positive energy, right?  Pretty sure they won't harm undead anyway.

So, basically, my "Worse enemy is..."   nomination was based on dexer toons attack since high-STR meleers can gradually whittle away with the high base damage.  For dexers without cleric buffs, it's hopeless IMO, without traps. 

Modifié par HipMaestro, 03 décembre 2011 - 01:23 .

[MrZork]

But is the physical portion critted in a touch attack that is based on
elemental damage?  Howz that supposed to work exactly?  The normal
enchanted attack is not a touch attack so you'll get 3 shots.  Then,
after it casts harm-self you are back to the drawing board.  Dunno,
about depending on the range touches.

You are right in that the elemental damage of the ammo (or bow) on those ranged touch attacks doesn't apply. To be clear, I meant that the critical portion of the touch attacks isn't going to happen much and isn't going to slip much damage past the DR. As an aside, the strength modifier is always multiplied x3 for those crits, along with specialization bonuses, but not other feat-based damage boosts. So, having a buffed strength can be helpful even if if the bow isn't mighty. But, either way, the note about crit damage was just an interesting (to me) quirk of critical hits with ranged touch attacks ignoring crit immunity.

I was mostly pointing to the elemental fire damage, which will do substantial damage for a higher level AA because it isn't subject to spell resistance and has a high enough save DC that the demilich probably won't save for half damage. As noted, it's still not enough to kill the buggers because of the 20/- fire resistance, but it can get them to the sweet spot where they have low enough hit points that you can finish them off with something else but not so low that the AI forces them to heal.

BTW, even a melee build is going to be sort of a whittler against these guys because of the 30/+20 DR. A nice greatsword will average 7 (max 12) base damage, then add, say 18 for modified strength of 46 (I think STR of 34 + 12 magic is pretty good except for RDDs) and another 6 for EWS means a typical 1 damage per hit, with a max of 6. There are no crits and no elemental buffs are helping here. Now, magic weapons will help that and magic, positive, and divine damage will work. But a normal meleer is basically whittling away, too.

Modifié par MrZork, 03 décembre 2011 - 02:14 .